606 réponses à ce sujet

[Omega Torsk]

Seeing as how the BioDevs weren't EVEN prepared to defend the original ending over a year ago and continue to remain silent about their motives surrounding it to this day, I believe that they missed the point of the ending, as well.

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 13 juin 2013 - 05:45 .

[angol fear]

Omega Torsk wrote...

Seeing as how the BioDevs weren't EVEN prepared to defend the original ending over a year ago and continue to remain silent about their motives surrounding it to this day, I believe that they missed the point of the ending, as well.

Bioware were not prepared to defend the original ending because the hate coming from the "fans" is not normal. When you create a story, you don't think that after you will have to take time to defend what you did. They are silent about their motives just because it's not a trial and explaining that would go against what they wanted to do, what the writing of Mass Effect 3 is about.
The only endings I like are the original ones because it's consistent with their motives. The extended cut is more what some players needed, so they don't see the problem that came in the narration (I'm not talking about the story) with it.
I don't think Bioware missed the point with the ending. When I see people saying that the themes were about "friendship", or that a conventional victory was possible, I think that they really missed the point with the story. But that's my opinion.

Modifié par angol fear, 13 juin 2013 - 06:12 .

[FlamingBoy]

angol fear wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Seeing as how the BioDevs weren't EVEN prepared to defend the original ending over a year ago and continue to remain silent about their motives surrounding it to this day, I believe that they missed the point of the ending, as well.

Bioware were not prepared to defend the original ending because the hate coming from the "fans" is not normal. When you create a story, you don't think that after you will have to take time to defend what you did. They are silent about their motives just because it's not a trial and explaining that would go against what they wanted to do, what the writing of Mass Effect 3 is about.
The only endings I like are the original ones because it's consistent with their motives. The extended cut is more what some players needed, so they don't see the problem that came in the narration (I'm not talking about the story) with it.
I don't think Bioware missed the point with the ending. When I see people saying that the themes were about "friendship", or that a conventional victory was possible, I think that they really missed the point with the story. But that's my opinion.

In regards to the "normalness' of fan reactions. considering the fans, which I noticed you airquoted, spent an excess of hundreds of dollars on the main series, some spent even more on the expanded universe, and most importantly 100 plus hours in a story that demanded emotional investment...
I think the "hate" was pretty much justified.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 13 juin 2013 - 06:19 .

[FlamingBoy]

StreetMagic wrote...

Personally, I didn't spend that much money, I think. I bought the first two used. If I wasted anything, it's more time than money. Like I said earlier, I already knew the Reapers were dumb in ME1 (dumb as in they are a faulty AI platform. Their reasoning capabilities are stupid). It didn't have to be dragged out to three games for me to find that out.

Time is our most valuable resource

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Is it considered weird around here that I actually like the Mass Effect games? 

No, because everyone here likes Mass Effect. But some people around here (OP and a few more) seems to think that if you dislike one of the games or certain parts of the game then you hate all of Mass Effect

I've begun to pick up on that, although the equation in this instance appears to quite literally be presented as: "If you don't like the ending then you are stupid."

Which, as we all know, is the best way to convince people to like something. 

It hasn't sunk into their heads yet that people get the endings just fine, we either don't like the premise and/or the execution and the explanation of the ending

No they don't...if they got it, they would understand that it dealt with themes not only throughout ME3, but the entire series.

And if you don't like the theme of sacrifice or that you can't save everyone...too bad. Hell, you couldn't save everyone in ME1 and ME2's ending. Its consistent.

[txgoldrush]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I agree its one theme of the endings, but its not the ONLY theme of the endings.

Yes, there are other themes in the ending, but sacrifice is clearly the most important and capstone theme.....the main theme of ME3.

This is why ALL three endings end at the memorial wall, talking about sacrifice. And Refuse Stargazer also talks about sacrifice.

The secondary theme is chosen by the player.

[Eckswhyzed]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LOL... this page has mad roflerz.

Yep.

One of my personal favourites is when people claim that the Reaper's motivations don't make sense and also want the Reapers to be completely inscurtable and mysterious.

[hpjay]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LOL... this page has mad roflerz.

Yep.

One of my personal favourites is when people claim that the Reaper's motivations don't make sense and also want the Reapers to be completely inscurtable and mysterious.

 

That's pretty straightforward...  I can't see what's so roflerz about that.  Anyone who wanted the reapers to remain  completely inscurtable and mysterious would naturally not like any attempt to have the reapers explained.  That the explanation makes little to no sense is just icing on the cake.  But they'd likely chaffe under any explaination, plausible or not.  Giving something a poor explaination doesn't make it mystereous or inscrutable.

Modifié par hpjay, 13 juin 2013 - 10:26 .

[Kataphrut94]

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

[Wayning_Star]

the ending has too many points, that's probably why no one can agree on the "one"..

[FlamingBoy]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

[Wayning_Star]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

to interject: my impression is that a billion years old child is still older than youthful thousands years old organics.

If we take experience into account. That apparently controls evolution? ( or so I've heard)

[FlamingBoy]

Wayning_Star wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

to interject: my impression is that a billion years old child is still older than youthful thousands years old organics.

If we take experience into account. That apparently controls evolution? ( or so I've heard)

True, he is older, but if catalyst (and reapers) is anything to go by age does not equal wisdom.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 13 juin 2013 - 12:05 .

[Kataphrut94]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

It may sound awkward to primitive mammals like us, but it's their culture and who are we to judge. If someone questions it, that's what the big guns are for.

[FlamingBoy]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

It may sound awkward to primitive mammals like us, but it's their culture and who are we to judge. If someone questions it, that's what the big guns are for.

We judge cultures every day, for example we judge the honor killings in afganistan. Its highly unlikely some one does not have an opinion of that.

Edit: The following is about reapers not afganistan!
They are not complicated, they have no cultue, they have no purpose, no existence worth knowing. They do not desire food, worship or surivival. They do not value art (lol art ), culture, and, as pointed out before, basic wisdom. There culture adds nothing to the world simply because they have nothing of value, except perhaps technology.

The reapers after me3 are not interesting in any way simply because they do not make sense, they are irrational. They are simply and army of Kai Lengs.
In comparision the illusive man (me2) he was a "greater good" kind of individual, while I really don't agree with that method I can see why he is the way he is.

Simply making a villian and saying "we cannot understand him" does not make for good story telling, the reapers were interesting and, if there motives remained mysterious they might still be.
But as they are the reapers are an undeveloped concept!

Nothing more....

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 13 juin 2013 - 12:33 .

[Wayning_Star]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Surely the fact that the Reapers motivations make no sense must mean that they are still inscrutable and mysterious. If they can outright explain what their goals are and still have people say 'I don't get it', does that make them enigmatic?

I reckon the level of bleakness in the endings are overstated. People still act like it's the original cut where everyone everywhere died and that Bioware were just out to kill the franchise. Now that we know that doesn't happen (low-EMS versions notwithstanding), they're really not that dark or horrible. At the absolute worst, one friendly alien race goes extinct. That's bad, but considering that the Reapers were out to get every friendly alien race, and that very few people actually like the friendly alien race that died, it's not as bleak as it's made out to be.

But their motivations don't just not make sense, they are not rational.... being irrational equals awkwardness (and in the case of this ending they look like idoits), and thats what the reapers are awkward

I mean after all this time, the reapers turned out to be nothing more than children (not in the clever philosphical sense, the literal one) with big guns, that is not impressive in any sense of the word.

It may sound awkward to primitive mammals like us, but it's their culture and who are we to judge. If someone questions it, that's what the big guns are for.

We judge cultures every day, for example we judge the honor killings in afganistan. Its highly unlikely some one does not have an opinion of that.

Edit: The following is about reapers not afganistan!
They are not complicated, they have no cultue, they have no purpose, no existence worth knowing. They do not desire food, worship or surivival. They do not value art (lol art ), culture, and, as pointed out before, basic wisdom. There culture adds nothing to the world simply because they have nothing of value, except perhaps technology.

The reapers after me3 are not interesting in any way simply because they do not make sense, they are irrational. They are simply and army of Kai Lengs.
In comparision the illusive man (me2) he was a "greater good" kind of individual, while I really don't agree with that method I can see why he is the way he is.

Simply making a villian and saying "we cannot understand him" does not make for good story telling, the reapers were interesting and, if there motives remained mysterious they might still be.
But as they are the reapers are an undeveloped concept!

Nothing more....

but we don't know them, so we've no idea as to their nature or culture. The story only portrays them generally and that they are residual of their harvested contents. That makes them potentially interesting in the concept of their 'being' of/as independent and nations. This denotes culture. Wisdom has little to do with it all really, as that is a cultural innovation, only for those who can actually afford it's uses...

[FlamingBoy]

Wayning_Star wrote...


but we don't know them, so we've no idea as to their nature or culture. The story only portrays them generally and that they are residual of their harvested contents. That makes them potentially interesting in the concept of their 'being' of/as independent and nations. This denotes culture. Wisdom has little to do with it all really, as that is a cultural innovation, only for those who can actually afford it's uses...

Yes I found the concept of being "independent" interesting as well. This was not expanded on me3.
Only the irrational (therefore uninteresting) side was touched.

[dorktainian]

maybe the reapers are the universes white blood cells - fighting the infection of organics since time began?

Or maybe they are just an illusion

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
I didn't zone out.  I'm saying that statement in EC is utter and complete nonsense on top of the sheer nonsense of the endings.  Nonsense with a side of nonsense that flies in the face of everything we've learned about the Reapers over the entire trilogy.  EC deserves to be mocked for that line alone.

Regardless, it is canon, and must be accounted for in any discussion about the Catalyst's motivations.

And here you hit on the big problem with the Catalyst (well, one of the big problems)  He is so full of contradictions and logical fallacies that nothing he says stands up to scrutiny. The best you can do is make the logical leaps that hurt your brain least.

[Tron Mega]

txgoldrush wrote...

No they don't...if they got it, they would understand that it dealt with themes not only throughout ME3, but the entire series.

And if you don't like the theme of sacrifice or that you can't save everyone...too bad. Hell, you couldn't save everyone in ME1 and ME2's ending. Its consistent.

im not sure i sacrificed anything throughout the ME trilogy, other then the VS......

i dont consider everyone that died, that their death was a sacrifice. like i didnt sacrifice all the people that died on earth at the begining of ME3. or am i supposed to feel like just becasue someone died, it was a sacrifice?

i played a suicide mission WHERE NO ONE DIED. even when the game tells me i should be sacrificeing, im not seeing it happen.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 13 juin 2013 - 02:02 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

And here you hit on the big problem with the Catalyst (well, one of the big problems)  He is so full of contradictions and logical fallacies that nothing he says stands up to scrutiny. The best you can do is make the logical leaps that hurt your brain least.

Only too true.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

angol fear wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Seeing as how the BioDevs weren't EVEN prepared to defend the original ending over a year ago and continue to remain silent about their motives surrounding it to this day, I believe that they missed the point of the ending, as well.

Bioware were not prepared to defend the original ending because the hate coming from the "fans" is not normal. When you create a story, you don't think that after you will have to take time to defend what you did. They are silent about their motives just because it's not a trial and explaining that would go against what they wanted to do, what the writing of Mass Effect 3 is about.
The only endings I like are the original ones because it's consistent with their motives. The extended cut is more what some players needed, so they don't see the problem that came in the narration (I'm not talking about the story) with it.
I don't think Bioware missed the point with the ending. When I see people saying that the themes were about "friendship", or that a conventional victory was possible, I think that they really missed the point with the story. But that's my opinion.

I can agree with the idea of an uconventional end to the conflict, and one which does not provide a simple victory.

In fact, they could have gone even darker, and more tragic, and I still would have been okay with it, depending on how it was handled.

What I didn't like (and I'm not seeking to belabour the point) was that all of my previous choices up until that point, became irrelevent, and had no meaning or consequence, the way they had in the previous two games. I may as well not have imported a game, at all.

It really wasn't any more or less than that, at least for me (and I know I'm not alone.)