606 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

txgoldrush wrote...

No they don't...if they got it, they would understand that it dealt with themes not only throughout ME3, but the entire series.

And if you don't like the theme of sacrifice or that you can't save everyone...too bad. Hell, you couldn't save everyone in ME1 and ME2's ending. Its consistent.

And, suddenly, everything becomes clear.

I completely fell for it...  I'm not usually this gullible...

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

this thread is entertaining.Keep it going

[Reorte]

Tron Mega wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No they don't...if they got it, they would understand that it dealt with themes not only throughout ME3, but the entire series.

And if you don't like the theme of sacrifice or that you can't save everyone...too bad. Hell, you couldn't save everyone in ME1 and ME2's ending. Its consistent.

im not sure i sacrificed anything throughout the ME trilogy, other then the VS......

i dont consider everyone that died, that their death was a sacrifice. like i didnt sacrifice all the people that died on earth at the begining of ME3. or am i supposed to feel like just becasue someone died, it was a sacrifice?

i played a suicide mission WHERE NO ONE DIED. even when the game tells me i should be sacrificeing, im not seeing it happen.

Exactly. There's a huge big difference between "It's war, sometimes people die" and sacrifice being a specific theme. 

[Jukaga]

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

[AresKeith]

Jukaga wrote...

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

The "perfect" suicide mission ties into the "Unity" theme of the series

It was still a Suicide mission due to the "possibility" that no one would make it back

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

AresKeith wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

The "perfect" suicide mission ties into the "Unity" theme of the series

It was still a Suicide mission due to the "possibility" that no one would make it back

I agree about the emotional impact of the ending, actually. I definitely felt it more in my first playthrough, when Jacob and Mordin died.

My first playthrough was lucky. I had, without being aware of it, done the missions in an order that allowed for all crew member's side missions to be completed before the final mission.

So, all I had to do was replay the final mission, and choose different characters for the tunnel/squad leader, and I saved everyone.

Naturally, my complete playthrough used the ending with all surviving characters - and I have no regrets.

But the emotional impact isn't the same as when Jacob and Mordin died. There's definitely something to the dramatic possibilities created by experiencing the story that way the first time.

The completionist in me could never accept it for my ending, though! 

[CronoDragoon]

Jukaga wrote...

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

I would agree more if the SM deaths were actually treated with significance. I realize there isn't really time for long-drawn out deaths with violin music, but everyone's deaths are just so interchangeable that it makes me feel less emotional and more "I screwed up."

[KaiserShep]

Jukaga wrote...

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

The thing that stands out to me is that the Illusive Man still says that "their sacrifice will not be forgotten". I wished that Shepard could raise an eyebrow and say "Sacrifice whatnow?" since at that point, everyone was still alive, except that poor lady from Horizon. 

[AresKeith]

The only think I agree with towards the Suicide mission is that it should've been harder

[Epic777]

AresKeith wrote...

The only think I agree with towards the Suicide mission is that it should've been harder

I disagree the backlash to the endings has little to do with happy, sad or sacrifice. The schism between what drives the ending and what they audience has been shown is the cause of the hatred of the endings. I really believe if the audience can see the writing on the wall, they will capitulate but it must be on the wall.

Think about it, a player cannot have Mordin and Wrex alive at the same time, they're two of the most popular characters in the trilogy. People weren't crying or pushing for the reversal of the situation.

I am convinced if the writing is on the wall the player will capitulate, it happened in Spec Ops: The line, it happened in Planescape: Torment. Both had bleak endings.

Why should the player capitulate to a God like Deus Ex element who declares what you have in some cases done is impossible? He declares what he thinks is correct which is contary to what the player has seen.

[Wayning_Star]

Epic777 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The only think I agree with towards the Suicide mission is that it should've been harder

I disagree the backlash to the endings has little to do with happy, sad or sacrifice. The schism between what drives the ending and what they audience has been shown is the cause of the hatred of the endings. I really believe if the audience can see the writing on the wall, they will capitulate but it must be on the wall.

Think about it, a player cannot have Mordin and Wrex alive at the same time, they're two of the most popular characters in the trilogy. People weren't crying or pushing for the reversal of the situation.

I am convinced if the writing is on the wall the player will capitulate, it happened in Spec Ops: The line, it happened in Planescape: Torment. Both had bleak endings.

Why should the player capitulate to a God like Deus Ex element who declares what you have in some cases done is impossible? He declares what he thinks is correct which is contary to what the player has seen.

It's the conception of the 'vague' necessity. Many if not most will definitively NOT read the writing on that wall. "Capitulation" as little to do with it, as most stories are not dependent upon the 'user' of the story, as in a video game.

Had this all been a book, then the story could of ended any way it wanted to, Folks would say ugh or yip eeee, etc. And that would of been it.

The POINT the OP is missing is that it's a players game, but the interaction isn't in depth, or at least as much as most players wish it to be. More than a book tho..lol (no good deed goes un punished?)

[Iakus]

Jukaga wrote...

I've reached the conclusion through at least a dozen playthroughs that a 'perfect' suicide mission cheapens the impact of the plot. It's a much better 'feel' imo to have a heavy cost to the SM, at least two crew members should die, with Thane preferably being one of them.

To all game developers:  If the ending requires a certain style of playthrough to feel appropriate, even when you offer other options in the game, you're doing it wrong.

[Iakus]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think people's biggest mistake is comparing ME2's ending with ME3's. They're two completely different games, and they shouldn't end the same way.

Main character named Commander Shepard?

Several characters returning?

Looming threat of Reapers?

Decisions imported?

Marketed as a trilogy?

Yeah, totally separate games 

[CronoDragoon]

Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 are more like TV shows that treat each season as a self-contained thematic arc. Each season can have its own unique focus on character and theme that doesn't necessarily equate to the season that came before.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 13 juin 2013 - 08:01 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Epic777 wrote...

Think about it, a player cannot have Mordin and Wrex alive at the same time, they're two of the most popular characters in the trilogy. People weren't crying or pushing for the reversal of the situation.

I believe that refers to a specific import program (Genesis, or something to that effect.) People say a similar thing about Legion/Tali Geth/Quarians.

It's not true in either case. It is entirely possible to have Wrex and Mordin alive at the same time. 

[AlanC9]

AresKeith wrote...

The "perfect" suicide mission ties into the "Unity" theme of the series

How so? Or maybe a better question would be "what is the Unity theme"?

[AlanC9]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

It's not true in either case. It is entirely possible to have Wrex and Mordin alive at the same time. 

As long as that time is before the end of the game, that is.

[AlanC9]

Epic777 wrote...
I am convinced if the writing is on the wall the player will capitulate, it happened in Spec Ops: The line, it happened in Planescape: Torment. Both had bleak endings.

Why should the player capitulate to a God like Deus Ex element who declares what you have in some cases done is impossible? He declares what he thinks is correct which is contary to what the player has seen.

Who's capitulating to him? What he wants, what he thinks, are interesting but irrelevant background. What counts is what the Crucible can do, and you go to war with the Crucible you have, not the Crucible you wish you had.

I'm not really opposing your essential point here; I just think this is an odd way to describe the situation.

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

The "perfect" suicide mission ties into the "Unity" theme of the series

Mass Effect 3 also has a strong theme of unity, evidenced by you only being able to take on the Reapers at Earth and dock the Crucible because your alliances allow you to stage a simultaneous ground/air attack.

Whether the game sports a Unity theme is not determined by everyone's survival, but rather to what degree your alliances, friendships, etc contributed towards the accomplishment of the goal and the salvation of the galaxy. To that extent, ME3 continues ME2's unity theme except on a galaxy-wide scale.

[AlanC9]

Fandango9641 wrote...


You make a fair point Alan, but it's still a fact that explicitly rejecting the Catalyst leads to the Reapers killing all of the things (and that's to say nothing of the 'wisdom' in trusting in anything the glowing little turd has to say for itself) *shrugs*.

Well, that's the problem. A lot of what the Catalyst says is simply true. Even if Satan tells you 2 + 2 = 4, it's still 4.

[Reorte]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Naturally, my complete playthrough used the ending with all surviving characters - and I have no regrets.

But the emotional impact isn't the same as when Jacob and Mordin died. There's definitely something to the dramatic possibilities created by experiencing the story that way the first time.

The completionist in me could never accept it for my ending, though! 

It's a good point. My first playthrough got Legion and Thane killed and that really had an impact. But for it to have that impact there really has to be the feeling that it happened because of you - in other words there has to be an option for everyone to survive to drive home that you made mistakes and some of your team died because of it. Not the writers, not the characters, but you. That runs into the issue that you seem to be having about less impact in future playthroughs but still not getting your crew killed, and I agree (because I don't like deliberately screwing up and I now know how not to).

It's tricky. I suppose what's needed are some unpredictable factors that the player still has to intelligently react to, to make every playthrough unique and impossible ot metagame but beats me how on earth that could be done.