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Wow.....most of BSN just completely miss the point of the ending.


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#401
David7204

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The Reapers are continually established as being concerned with extinction and nothing else. No autonomous thought or action, no internal disagreement or conflict. It's been very clear from the beginning the Reapers are following something.

Whether that's a computer program, or a set of mandates they came up with themselves, or a physical entity controlling them...I really do not see how that makes any fundamental difference at all. The same motive still exists. The same enemy still exists. The same ending still exists. It's been clear from the beginning that the Reapers were following some sort of order. I don't see the fact that that order originates from an AI hidden on the Citadel as opposed to an AI within a Reaper shell as of any meaningful importance. That really just sounds to me like a difference in location.

All of those things could easily have been kept exactly or near-exactly in place and been explained without the Catalyst. By Harbinger. By another Reaper. By a friendly AI. By the Crucible, perhaps. And people seem to think that would all be fine and dandy.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:24 .


#402
TheProtheans

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David7204 wrote...

I'm very interested in this very contradictory attitude I see many people on the BSN have concerning the Catalyst.

Ok.....

Plenty of people have insulted him, called him stupid, gleefully posted their fantasies of how they would kill him. And yet, simultaneously, there's no end of people who want him replaced with someone trustworthy they have a connection with, like Ashley or Kaidan or Anderson.

Hmmm.. not really.
I would of wanted him replaced with someone with a more meaningful connection to Shepard other than a retarded kid who refused help and gives a sense  being not real, there again Bioware are awful writers.
Anyway, I don't understand how Bioware didn't pick someone more meaningful to Shepard.
I would have wanted it be the VS or someone.

They simultaneously desperately want him to be right and demand him to be wrong.


But make no mistake, the plot, the story and this game is pretty awful.
I don't even want a badly written catalyst and I don't want to pick who I prefer to be the catalyst of this terribly written conclusion to a trilogy.
But if I'm forced to make a choice then f**k I'll pick someone better to play that role.


It's not contradictory, I can only imagine you thought that because you're terribly shortsighted.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 15 juin 2013 - 09:24 .


#403
David7204

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Make yourself better understood and I'll do it. What is it you're asking David?

Do you want the Reapers to be right, or do you want the Reapers to be wrong?

Simple as that.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:26 .


#404
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Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 juin 2013 - 11:40 .


#405
David7204

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That's not what I asked.

See, you're making these insinuations that this supposed 'racist ignorance' is a bad thing from a meta standpoint. As if the writers somehow intended to make the Reapers friendly and loveable, but accidently made them racist. Is that what you're thinking?

Let me ask again. Do you WANT the Reapers to be right, or do you WANT them to be wrong? That's the question I'd like answered.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:43 .


#406
Redbelle

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David7204 wrote...

The Reapers are continually established as being concerned with extinction and nothing else. No autonomous thought or action, no internal disagreement or conflict. It's been very clear from the beginning the Reapers are following something.

Whether that's a computer program, or a set of mandates they came up with themselves, or a physical entity controlling them...I really do not see how that makes any fundamental difference at all. The same motive still exists. The same enemy still exists. The same ending still exists.

All of those things could easily have been kept exactly or near-exactly in place and been explained without the Catalyst. By Harbinger. By another Reaper. By a friendly AI. By the Crucible, perhaps. And people seem to think that would all be fine and dandy.


Sovereign demonstrated autonmous actions by remaining hidden and indoctrinating key agents to do its work while massing an army. Had it been business as usual, he would not have hidden. Sovereign guaged the situation and decided that a stealthy approach would be better over moving in with overwhelming force, as is the Reaper doctrine.

You say the Reapers are following something....... that something is yet to be revealed as the Catalyst, or even hint at the Catalyst as the command and controller. The Reapers could be following Harbinger. They could all be following programming. The possibilites have yet to collapse till we are left with only one possibilty of the driving force of the Reapers living on the Citadel.

This is a big deal. Because if the driving force of the Reapers is within easy reach of every species it is harvesting then, had they known, they could have torn the station apart to find it and stop it.

Think of it this way. If the controller had been Harbinger, then they would have to kill Harbinger to kill the command and control centrol of the Reaper attack. Given the difficulty of killing a Reaper this would have been costly.

If they had known the Catalyst was the command and contorl point. Then they could have targetted it with much less risk to their fleets and with more time to spare, given that they already had the Citadel.

If they knew that the Catalyst existed, but it's command and control function's were distributed across the Reaper mind frame, then destroying the Catlayst would not have made any difference to the war effort. But they wuld have been able to implement greater data protection precaution's to reduce the risk of the Catalyst using the Galactic hub of the galaxy from relaying information tothe Reapers on where best to target for maximum effect.

The point is, it does matter where the Reaper command and control cetnre is, and it does matter what it's capabilities are. Because if the Catlayst is an unknown, then question's like, "why did it not repair the damage the Protheans did and allow the Reapers into the Galaxy, having to rely on Soverign instead"?

This right there is a failure of the writer to develop the Catalyst sufficiently as a character to answer a very important question. Mainly, that if the Catalyst actively wants another harvest, did it not take action because it didn't want to in favour of another option? Or because it was incapable?

I can't help but notice that your argument also noted that the Catalyst is superfluous to the narrative given it's function. So the question persists. Why seat the function of the Catalsyt within it's final design instead of giving them to an established character who does not raise so many issues?

And ehy make the Citadel the home of the Cataltyst and not add the words. "The prothean sabotage disrupted my control of the Keepers, leaving me unable to open the realy to darkspace myself". So that the narrative is given the structure it needs to carry the story.

Narrative is a means of communication, and failing to communicate clearly and precisely allows for the possibility of narrative failures. The story has to carry the observer. The observer cannot be expected to make vast leaps of logic. Fro a writer to expect that is to leave behind a majority of your readers. And writers need to able to reach out with words to as many people as possible in order to looked upon by as many of those people as possible, to be deemed a succesful writer.

#407
Redbelle

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David7204 wrote...

That's not what I asked.

See, you're making these insinuations that this supposed 'racist ignorance' is a bad thing from a meta standpoint. As if the writers somehow intended to make the Reapers friendly and loveable, but accidently made them racist. Is that what you're thinking?

Let me ask again. Do you WANT the Reapers to be right, or do you WANT them to be wrong? That's the question I'd like answered.


I want neither.

It's irrelevant if they have a valid argument or not at this point. They are guilty of genocide. And if I had developed that game, I would not condemn, nor support their reasons for doing what they have done.

I want the galaxy to be free from the threat of them. And for them to be held accountable for their actions.

I do not want them to be right or wrong.

I want them to face justice.

And the justice they face should be in the hands of the players.

#408
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David7204 wrote...

That's not what I asked.

See, you're making these insinuations that this supposed 'racist ignorance' is a bad thing. As if the writers somehow intended to make the Reapers friendly and loveable, but accidently made them racist. Is that what you're thinking?

Let me ask again. Do you WANT the Reapers to be right, or do you WANT them to be wrong?


Again, trying to put words in my mouth. To answer your redundant little question, I WANT them to be wrong. I also KNOW them to be wrong. Christ, the game even TELLS me they're wrong! Point?

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 juin 2013 - 10:28 .


#409
David7204

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I don't need your little speeches about what a narrative is at the end of each post.

The Catalyst being on the Citadel doesn't necessarily open up any possibilities. You're making way too many assumptions on that. I really doubt the Reapers would just shut down if the Catalyst was destroyed. That sounds like a rather pointless weakness, and I'm glad they didn't go with that. Pretty much any weakness of the sort is going to be a rather pointless weakness.

As for the issues of the Catalyst being on the Citadel, those are somewhat of a concern, but nothing even remotely close to explain the intense hatred towards the Catalyst.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:59 .


#410
David7204

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Fandango9641 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not what I asked.

See, you're making these insinuations that this supposed 'racist ignorance' is a bad thing. As if the writers somehow intended to make the Reapers friendly and loveable, but accidently made them racist. Is that what you're thinking?

Let me ask again. Do you WANT the Reapers to be right, or do you WANT them to be wrong?


Again, trying to put words in my mouth. To answer your redundant little question, I WANT them to be wrong. I also KNOW them to be wrong. Point?


Okay then. So you would agree their 'racist ignorance' or whatever you want to call it is a good thing, then? That's what you want? What you just asked for?

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 10:00 .


#411
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David7204 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's not what I asked.

See, you're making these insinuations that this supposed 'racist ignorance' is a bad thing. As if the writers somehow intended to make the Reapers friendly and loveable, but accidently made them racist. Is that what you're thinking?

Let me ask again. Do you WANT the Reapers to be right, or do you WANT them to be wrong?



Again, trying to put words in my mouth. To answer your redundant little question, I WANT them to be wrong. I also KNOW them to be wrong. Point?



Okay then. So you would agree their 'racist ignorance' or whatever you want to call it is a good thing, then? That's what you want?



No David, I would say that ethnic cleansing perpetrated in the name of xenophobic intolerance is a bad thing.

EDIT: Do you disagree David?

Modifié par Fandango, 16 avril 2014 - 02:22 .


#412
David7204

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Would you just prefer a story with no villain at all, maybe? No conflict at all? A 120-hour story of Shepard sitting around doing nothing?

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 10:11 .


#413
FlamingBoy

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Lets make no mistake The Illusive man is the main antagonist (at least until the final minutes of the game) of the story not the reapers.

I mean the reapers are tertiary at best behind Kai Leng. This conflict is a philosophical one (between the technological singularity ). Its a conflict of ideology and unless it has human repercussions its a boring one at that.

This synthetic vs organic thing is the kind of thing you debate in theology class not to tell a story about "saving the universe" or "earth" which is what mass effect was advertised to be....
As seen below

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 15 juin 2013 - 10:15 .


#414
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David7204 wrote...

Would you just prefer a story with no villain at all, maybe? No conflict at all?


Are we even having the same conversation? To confirm, I've no problem with Mac and Casey setting the Reapers up as an impossibly powerful, horribly racist threat. My issue is that the game sets things up in such a way as to reward those who would embrace the Catalysts xenophobic logic in pursuit of victory. What is it you're having trouble understanding here David? Is there a point to any of these questions?

#415
David7204

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You're very annoyingly inconsistent. You know that? I ask if the Reapers being evil is a bad thing, and you tell me 'Yes.' A minute later you say you've got no problem with it.

As for your complaint, it's ridiculous. Destroy is not 'embracing the Catalyst's logic.' Unless we're going back to claiming 2+2 = 5 because the Catalyst says it's 4?

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 10:28 .


#416
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David7204 wrote...

You're very annoyingly inconsistent. You know that? I ask if the Reapers being evil is a bad thing, and you tell me 'Yes.' A minute later you say you've got no problem with it.

As for your complaint, it's ridiculous. Destroy is not 'embracing the Catalyst's logic.' Unless we're going back to claiming 2+2 = 5 because the Catalyst says it's 4?


And you're a disingenuous little **** who seems more invested in trying to put words in my mouth than arguing in good faith. What a waste of time!

#417
David7204

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If you spent a little more time thinking things through and a little less time with your futile attempts to spite Walters, you might understand there's a very legitimate point buried under your hypocrisy and blame-game tactics. As it as, all you're doing is undermining yourself and me as well.

You clearly hold a great deal of contempt for 'uglier' elements in storytelling. Murder, genocide, racism, and the like. You need to let that go, and realize that not only are they good and necessary parts of a story, but that heroism cannot exist without them.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 10:52 .


#418
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Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 juin 2013 - 11:07 .


#419
favoritehookeronthecitadel

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This arguement is making me lol. Just kiss already, guys. You're like Jack and Miranda.

#420
The Night Mammoth

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Meh, David's assuming things again so that he has something to argue about. Just another day on the BBA.

#421
David7204

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Why don't you explain to me why you think Destroy 'forces you' to 'accept the racist mantra'?

#422
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David7204 wrote...

Why don't you explain to me why you think Destroy 'forces you' to 'accept the racist mantra'?


Really? Destroy is a choice that validates the Catalysts racist mandate in that it necessitates the wholesale slaughter all forms of synthetic life.

Modifié par Fandango9641, 15 juin 2013 - 11:17 .


#423
FlamingBoy

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Meh, David's assuming things again so that he has something to argue about. Just another day on the BBA.

Its the manufacturing of what my, or someone else, opinion that annoys me.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 15 juin 2013 - 11:14 .


#424
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FlamingBoy wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Meh, David's assuming things again so that he has something to argue about. Just another day on the BBA.

Its the manufacturing of what my, or someone else, opinion that annoys me.


Is he well known for this?

#425
David7204

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Fandango9641 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Why don't you explain to me why you think Destroy 'forces you' to 'accept the racist mantra'?


Really? Destroy is a choice that validates the Catalysts racist mandate in that it necessitates the wholesale slaughter all forms of synthetic life. In any case, the Catalysts (horribly racist) contention is that organics and synthetics are incapable of coexisting peacefully right? The three choices offered to Shep are the catalysts 'solutions' to this apparent problem yes? You get to pick one, thereby validating glowboys explicitly racist mantra. What's to argue?


It might surprise you to learn that the amount of times you can put 'racist' in a paragraph isn't going to convince me of much.

Tell me, is war in general a 'horribly sexist' and 'horrible ageist' mantra in that in necessitates generally young men being killed?