326 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Hazegurl wrote...

That would be nice. But then again I sort of think that any place they get to rule could possibly be another Tevinter. it's just too easy for them to resort to blood magic to gain power.

It might not be.  The way Tevinter does things is as much a product of their culture and history as it is of their magisters.  Andraste never conquered them completely, and they are culturally and religiously distinct from the rest of Thedas.

My reservation to letting mages run amok has less to do with the threat of another Tevinter and more to do with the threat of chaos.  You've got a bunch of people with special powers who are fighting a war against an enemy they despise.  Lots of them are from Circles and have never had a "normal" life.  If even a small minority of the mages go the Anders route and use the war to take out their rage on the world, they could cause a lot of damage.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 juin 2013 - 09:27 .

[TK514]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

That would be nice. But then again I sort of think that any place they get to rule could possibly be another Tevinter. it's just too easy for them to resort to blood magic to gain power.

It might not be.  The way Tevinter does things is as much a product of their culture and history as it is of their magisters.  Andraste never conquered them completely, and they are culturally and religiously distinct from the rest of Thedas.

My reservation to letting mages run amok has less to do with the threat of another Tevinter and more to do with the threat of chaos.  You've got a bunch of people with special powers who are fighting a war against an enemy they despise.  Lots of them are from Circles and have never had a "normal" life.  If even a small minority of the mages decide to take out their rage on anyone who ever wronged them, they could cause a lot of damage.

Personally, I'm less concerned about another Tevinter than I am about a whole lot more Connor Guerrins or Olivia Thrasks.

Modifié par TK514, 13 juin 2013 - 09:30 .

[MisterJB]

Personally, I never felt that mage serial killers are really the true threat of magic. I always feared mage entrepeneurs more because, even if we assume that Andrastian mages have no wish to enslave anyone, everyone uses their abilities to improve their lot in life. Unlike blood magic, this is not a crime that can be policed.
Unfortunately, non-mages will never be able to compete with mages and, inevitably, they would become second class citizens.

[Sable Rhapsody]

TK514 wrote...

Personally, I'm less concerned about another Tevinter than I am about a whole lot more Connor Guerrins or Olivia Thrasks.

Exactly.  Connor, Olivia, Evelina (from the On the Loose quest)...they're all nice, sweet kids.  None of them are malicious or violent or evil.  And they still manage to do a lot of damage, simply because they're mages.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 juin 2013 - 10:00 .

[MisterJB]

It's sad but true. Equality between mages and non-mages is simply impossible. Therefore, one side must dominate the other.
Hopefully, the writers are aware of this and choose to go with a realistic ending.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Revolutions throughout history would suggest otherwise.

You're right, they'd be slaughtered.

History has never been a fan of the meek.

The slave rebellions and the successful overthrow of dictatorships would tell us otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While your fellow pro-templars vilify atheism and atheists when some of us supported the new protagonist[/i] having the option to be atheist (like The Warden could be), trying to vilify us as hating all real world religion and ignoring our specific dislike for the Chantry of Andraste, or saying that we support racism and genocide because some of us want the People to have their own kingdom again. 

The Pro-Templar people don't participate in the atheist topics becasue they are Pro-Templars, but because they have to correct the stupidity of the people claiming that Hawke can only be Andrastian.... That some of these people just happens to be Pro-Templars, is just a coincidence. Same with the Dalish topics.

Hawke can only voice a religiously Andrastian point of view; he can't voice that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Gaider didn't even remember that The Warden could express that he didn't believe in the Maker in Origins and Awakening, and originally didn't want players to have that option again. It remains to be seen how much freedom we will actually have with the new protagonist.

Not every player should be forced to play a religiously Andrastian character. Simply because you like the organization doesn't mean we do.

Or, and try to keep up now, you could just NOT express any religious view, and BAM you have your atheist right there. I know, I know, it is very hard to understand, but do try.....

When Hawke tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, when the protagonist is limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view without an alternative point of view permitted (such as with Merrill's comfort scene and Sebastian's religious discussions), and when the head writer expressed that he didn't want players to have the choice to express an atheist point of view again, then I don't see how an atheist point of view was included for Hawke. Hopefully, Inquisition will be different.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elven topics have to do with the Dalish historical account condemning the Chantry for invading the Dales with templars.

Which has nothing at all to do with being pro-Templar, and more to do with somne people having blind faith in everyhting an Elf says, and others having enough experience to know a ****stained worthless source when they see one. You dont HAVE to be pro-Templar to have this sort of experience, a functioning brain would be enough.

People expressing the willingness to think there could be some merit in elven lore isn't the same as blind faith, but then again, and I think the fact that elven their history paints the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars in a very bad light plays a part in why some pro-templar fans always participate in those threads.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Right of Annulment in Kirkwall? I pointed out some pro-templar players opposed Meredith's justification to kill every mage in Kirkwall.

You have, on several occasions, said that by supporting Templars, then you were by extension supporting the act of genocide. Of course, considering that Annulments aren't genocide, it is a braindead statement, with no merit other than the attempt to use loaded terms, that you pro-Mages are so fond of.

What Meredith is asking for is an act of genocide, which is what I've argued - it's the mass murder of hundreds of murder of men, women, and children who will be killed for being mages - which is precisely what Meredith argues when she continually says to the Champion that she wants to kill all the mages to appease a hypothetical mob that will demand their deaths.

I've also pointed out that some pro-templar fans found her demand asinine, and that it's really a pro-Meredith choice rather than a pro-templar choice, since some pro-templar players refused Meredith's demand without surrendering their views on the Chantry controlled Circle. I also thought it was a failing of Dragon Age II not to recognize that some pro-templar fans would refuse Meredith without being pro-mage.

[Sable Rhapsody]

LobselVith8 wrote...
When Hawke tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, when the protagonist is limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view without an alternative point of view permitted (such as with Merrill's comfort scene and Sebastian's religious discussions), and when the head writer expressed that he didn't want players to have the choice to express an atheist point of view again, then I don't see how an atheist point of view was included for Hawke. Hopefully, Inquisition will be different.

Expressions like "May the Maker guide you" or "Andraste's dimpled buttcheeks" are just that--expressions.  I'm atheist IRL, but I do Christmas and say "Oh God" at things; I'd be "culturally" Christian in the same sense that Hawke seems to be culturally Andrastian.  Even Aveline, who's something of a doubter, makes use of the cultural elements of the Chantry.  You can read whatever you want into Hawke's words, whether they're genuine belief in the Maker or just a product of his/her cultural upbringing.

[LobselVith8]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When Hawke tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, when the protagonist is limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view without an alternative point of view permitted (such as with Merrill's comfort scene and Sebastian's religious discussions), and when the head writer expressed that he didn't want players to have the choice to express an atheist point of view again, then I don't see how an atheist point of view was included for Hawke. Hopefully, Inquisition will be different.

Expressions like "May the Maker guide you" or "Andraste's dimpled buttcheeks" are just that--expressions.  I'm atheist IRL, but I do Christmas and say "Oh God" at things; I'd be "culturally" Christian in the same sense that Hawke seems to be culturally Andrastian.

Hawke telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides his path is different than using the name of a deity as a swear word or an expression, especially when he's saying it to someone who doesn't even believe in the Maker. It's also problematic when you couple it with the religious conversations with Sebastian, where Hawke doesn't have the same freedom as The Warden to express that he simply doesn't believe in the Maker, or with Merrill, where he says that Leandra is with the Maker, but the player isn't given an option to express that he doesn't believe in the Maker. It's an issue of wanting the same freedom with the protagonist that I had with The Warden, which is also felt by other people who expressed a similar interest, and started threads about it.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Even Aveline, who's something of a doubter, makes use of the cultural elements of the Chantry.  You can read whatever you want into Hawke's words, whether they're genuine belief in the Maker or just a product of his/her cultural upbringing.

Different context, as I explain above.

[Ravensword]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Revolutions can also spawn a worse dictatorship

Will the mages form a nation of their own like the tevinter Imperium?

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Revolutions throughout history would suggest otherwise.

You're right, they'd be slaughtered.

History has never been a fan of the meek.

The slave rebellions and the successful overthrow of dictatorships would tell us otherwise.

Most slave rebllions (like sparatacis) end with them all dead, also which dictators? most have only happened in the last hundred years or so, those before either died or went on to be worse. Except for Athens, one whole exameple.

America does not count as they created a government almost exactly the same as the one they left and the revolted over taxs not a a ruthless dictator.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The slave rebellions and the successful overthrow of dictatorships would tell us otherwise.

Oh? And how about all those failed revolutions where everyone was slaughtered? Rebel groups which were hanged in the public and labeled as terrorists by history because they sought to overthrow the nation? Are they irrelevant because they were never successful?

How about the rebellions which recieved foreign aid to overthrow their government but were slaughtered immediately afterwards so the foreign nation can walk in and take control of their enemy's nation? Were those "successful"?

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

Personally, I never felt that mage serial killers are really the true threat of magic. I always feared mage entrepeneurs more because, even if we assume that Andrastian mages have no wish to enslave anyone, everyone uses their abilities to improve their lot in life. Unlike blood magic, this is not a crime that can be policed.
Unfortunately, non-mages will never be able to compete with mages and, inevitably, they would become second class citizens.

True, which is why I think that the Lucrosians have the best idea of them all. Money is power, period.  they could have gotten their freedom sans the blood shed and be in power from the inside using wealth.

As for my thoughts on the the island idea or just giving them their own nation, They can have their nation but what happens when one mage simply has more power than the other and is able to accumulate more wealth than another? Naturally they will reach for their talents to catch up and if they can't then an easy way to do it would be to resort to blood magic. A little bit here and little bit there and before long they are the one ahead in life. The unfair advantage will cause other mages to turn to blood magic to catch up. One mage acquires more power and rise to the top. Whomever wants to outshine him will have to resort to more blood magic, perhaps a litle scarifice to make it stronger. it all goes downhill.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 14 juin 2013 - 02:57 .

[MisterJB]

Meh, so long as they do it to each other and don't involved the non-mages, I couldn't care less. Go nuts. Just make sure they can't leave the island.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I thought this was the "I support the Templars" thread, not the "whine about Hawke's Andrastian tone that comes up, what, two times in the game" thread.

You say you don't want to discuss how Hawke was limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view in the narrative, without the ability to express a different or atheist perspective, but then you invite me to discuss the matter with you by being factually inaccurate with your statement.

I get that the matter means nothing to you, but it was important for some people. Not everyone likes the Chantry, the templars, or their religious views like you do.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 juin 2013 - 03:12 .

[SamaraDraven]

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Personally, I never felt that mage serial killers are really the true threat of magic. I always feared mage entrepeneurs more because, even if we assume that Andrastian mages have no wish to enslave anyone, everyone uses their abilities to improve their lot in life. Unlike blood magic, this is not a crime that can be policed.
Unfortunately, non-mages will never be able to compete with mages and, inevitably, they would become second class citizens.

True, which is why I think that the Lucrosians have the best idea of them all. Money is power, period.  they could have gotten their freedom sans the blood shed and be in power from the inside using wealth.

As for my thoughts on the the island idea or just giving them their own nation, They can have their nation but what happens when one mage simply has more power than the other and is able to accumulate more wealth than another? Naturally they will reach for their talents to catch up and if they can't then an easy way to do it would be to resort to blood magic. A little bit here and little bit there and before long they are the one ahead in life. The unfair advantage will cause other mages to turn to blood magic to catch up. One mage acquires more power and rise to the top. Whomever wants to outshine him will have to resort to more blood magic, perhaps a litle scarifice to make it stronger. it all goes downhill.

And then someday, a top-dog mage will decide that they want the whole world at their feet. It's the nature of humans to want more power, mage or not. Mages have an advantage and I would fully expect one of the mages of a free mage state to try their hand at expanding their power and influence. There is no just "leaving them alone".

I do think there can be a compromise, however. Where I believe The Circle fails is in its severity of how it treats mages, such as cutting them off from families and loved ones. Why can't it be that mandatory school is required? Why can't they marry and have children? Most humans desire these things too. I'm all for finding a way to integrate them into society and still keeping restrictions in place that forbid their use of magic unless it's necessary. Like with gun use. Usually a person defending themselves is excused from harming another that is trying to kill/rape/rob them. I'd prefer it if the templars were more like cops, who really are out to just keep people safe. Being a mage is scary enough on its own. Templars like Thrask are the kind of person I think the Chantry should be trying to recruit. Well... except where he goes native...

Still... focusing on inventing new tools that can allow a compromise seems a worthwhile goal to me. One thing I've always wondered is how those phylacteries work. Do they lead templars to the mage only IF he or she uses their magic? Or does it work regardless and follow their blood?  Can it work for non-mages? Can phylacteries track kidnap victims if they had a vial in the cache? Do they react when someone is experiencing magic against their person? What about for blood magic? I wish we knew these things. If phylacteries were more than just DNA specific glowsticks, I could see so many possibilities for overhauling the current system!  Also: A room full of phylacteries is easier to keep watch over than a tower full of people. More knights out roaming the street, keeping watch over mage and non-mage alike to protect and thwart evildoers of mage and non-mage classes. This is my religion!

But it's only a theory, a dream... We don't know much.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 14 juin 2013 - 03:35 .

[saMoorai]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
When Hawke tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, when the protagonist is limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view without an alternative point of view permitted (such as with Merrill's comfort scene and Sebastian's religious discussions), and when the head writer expressed that he didn't want players to have the choice to express an atheist point of view again, then I don't see how an atheist point of view was included for Hawke. Hopefully, Inquisition will be different.

Expressions like "May the Maker guide you" or "Andraste's dimpled buttcheeks" are just that--expressions.  I'm atheist IRL, but I do Christmas and say "Oh God" at things; I'd be "culturally" Christian in the same sense that Hawke seems to be culturally Andrastian.  Even Aveline, who's something of a doubter, makes use of the cultural elements of the Chantry.  You can read whatever you want into Hawke's words, whether they're genuine belief in the Maker or just a product of his/her cultural upbringing.

^This

Hell, i'm an athiest and i volunteered at a chirch event a few weeks ago.

Hawke's beliefs are how you interpret them.

[Hazegurl]

Right, I say "Oh my God" "Holy Crap" "bless you" (when a person sneezes). "Jesus!" or "Jesus Christ" when something is shocking etc. I celebrate the holidays like Christmas although I try to add a bit of paganism into it, cause I find it very interesting and honestly more authentic if you're gonna celebrate the holiday. These are just the by products of growing up in a christian society. That's how I take Hawke's expressions it means nothing about Hawke's religion and I don't get why it's such a big deal even if he was a believer. At the end of the day Hawke isn't you, he is still his own character.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Aolbain wrote...
I am decently sure there was a mage supporter thread hereabout. Can't the mage supporters go there and have fun? We are busy oppressing here.

I kinda like how crazy they are. It's funny

Indeed. Their mad ramblings are amusing. I just wish they would stop cutting their wrists. All that blood loss is not good for the brain.

Oh damn...blood stains on my carpet and sword again. Those things don't clean themselves ya know!

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Revolutions throughout history would suggest otherwise.

You're right, they'd be slaughtered.

History has never been a fan of the meek.

The slave rebellions and the successful overthrow of dictatorships would tell us otherwise.

For every rebellion that suceeded, you will find a dozen that ended in total failure.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I thought this was the "I support the Templars" thread, not the "whine about Hawke's Andrastian tone that comes up, what, two times in the game" thread.

You say you don't want to discuss how Hawke was limited to expressing a religiously Andrastian point of view in the narrative, without the ability to express a different or atheist perspective, but then you invite me to discuss the matter with you by being factually inaccurate with your statement.

I get that the matter means nothing to you, but it was important for some people. Not everyone likes the Chantry, the templars, or their religious views like you do.

Not a big problem. You can always file such expressions under "cultural influences". Yes, even things like "May the Maker light his path", so you can kinda play an atheist.
Hell, I'm more concerned by having a fixed race. You can't kinda-sorta roleplay being an elf.

Either way, you're always limited by the developer in what you can do or be.