366 réponses à ce sujet

[Jzadek72]

Eterna5 wrote...

But then you'd have another ME3. This fanbase hates reality.

I got the impression that the hate for ME3 was more because of the ending being a bit of a Deus Ex Machina, rather than any darkness about it.

On topic, only if it makes sense. Recent developments in Game of Thrones seem to have given people the idea that killing characters = good writer, when actually GRRM is a good writer who happens to kill off his characters. The deaths need to be satisfying and have some kind of reason behind them.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did.. do not pull a GoT and shove trauma and angst into the plot just to be "edgy". There is enough darkness in GoT that I could do without any for quite some time... actually am quite sick of that level of darkness.

Are you kidding me?
GoT is one of the few if not THE ONLY series that has ever pulled so much tragic, sadness and darkness from the story and characters. It makes every other series, movies and games that claim themselfes to be dark look like Disney compared to it.

[Genshie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

Same reason why I chose to betray Krogans, kill Mordin, and choose control after promising to destroy the Reapers in ME3. It is different and it is fun to sometimes go against your normal morals.

[King Cousland]

To those saying that the body Varric is mourning may be Hawke, I think that's unlikely. If you examine the trailer closely, Varric's hand fits over the whole of the face. Now, a human face would presumably be too large for the considerably smaller dwarven limbs to envelope. It's more likely the body is a fellow dwarf or a child.

In general, I support this. If it happens though, it should be to important characters (e.g, Alistair, Leliana) not just your Average Joe.

Modifié par King Cousland, 10 juin 2013 - 09:54 .

[Nole]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did.. do not pull a GoT and shove trauma and angst into the plot just to be "edgy". There is enough darkness in GoT that I could do without any for quite some time... actually am quite sick of that level of darkness.

Are you kidding me?
GoT is one of the few if not THE ONLY series that has ever pulled so much tragic, sadness and darkness from the story and characters. It makes every other series, movies and games that claim themselfes to be dark look like Disney compared to it.

Warhammer 40k.

[frostajulie]

darkness and death for the sake of being dark and deathy is stupid and a bad idea. Create a series of choices where maybe some alternate outcomes could involve death but make sure they are cohesive, narratively driven and properly foreshadowed through good storytelling. And for the love of god try not to be too "artistic" just for the sake of it. I personally hope the first prioroty of the team is to make a good game if darkness and death fit then we get it but we are not railroaded into it for the sake of being angsty.

[Kabraxal]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

[JobacNoor]

Genshie wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

Same reason why I chose to betray Krogans, kill Mordin, and choose control after promising to destroy the Reapers in ME3. It is different and it is fun to sometimes go against your normal morals.

You have no soul.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

 Bioware (or even EA) will never make a Witcher/GoT style game when it comes to themes and content, though one might argue the world that DA is set in is pretty damn dark already; most of it is "offscreen" so to speak. 

Choosing things you enjoy tends to lead to a healthier lifestyle, than choosing things you don't, then wailing for those things to change to become what you want. I think I read it in a fortune cookie once. 

I have often wondered how amazing a game would do if it had zero pretense of you being "good", and took the epic fantasy story and let you play as the evil character without a single redeeming quality that allowed you to view yourself through some moral justification for your actions as so many "evil" characters tend to be weighed down with. Pure evil. Pure darkness. Pure badness. 

I suspect that putting the media reaction aside, it'd do spectacularly, which has made me wonder for decades now why no publisher or game developer has done it yet (with a few, very few, very niche, exceptions).

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 10 juin 2013 - 09:58 .

[Kabraxal]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did.. do not pull a GoT and shove trauma and angst into the plot just to be "edgy". There is enough darkness in GoT that I could do without any for quite some time... actually am quite sick of that level of darkness.

Are you kidding me?
GoT is one of the few if not THE ONLY series that has ever pulled so much tragic, sadness and darkness from the story and characters. It makes every other series, movies and games that claim themselfes to be dark look like Disney compared to it.

Considering the recent interveiw with GRR... I am beginning to think many of the horrid events in the series is simply happening because he gets a kick out of watching the fans suffer.  He admitted that last bit already so now you have to wonder how much of the books are natural progression or "lets see what we can do to make the fans hurt!".  It's why I've slowly tuned out of the series... it's going the Sword of Truth route and hammering the reader over the head with "look how dark I can be look how dark I can be!".

[Genshie]

JobacNoor wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

Same reason why I chose to betray Krogans, kill Mordin, and choose control after promising to destroy the Reapers in ME3. It is different and it is fun to sometimes go against your normal morals.

You have no soul.

Well he wasn't my ANGRY/POWER HUNGRY/CERBERUS SUPPORTER Shepard for nothing. I like to roleplay various different character mind sets. If you like all my other Sheps chose destroy.

Modifié par Genshie, 10 juin 2013 - 10:01 .

[King Cousland]

Kabraxal wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

I'm the last person who'd advocate this, but we have to accept that there are some things that are beyond our character's control however powerful they may seem. It's often the actions which we have no choice over that act as a dramatic and narrative device to spur us on in our decision making. 

Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative. We, as roleplayers however, need to come to terms with the fact that out choices can't micromanage every single aspect of every single character's life, and that dark and depressing things sometimes happen that are beyond our control. We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning, but we shouldn't expect to be able to make everything sunshine and lollipops. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 10 juin 2013 - 10:01 .

[vortex216]

I don't mind if they kill of my valuable friends, as long as they don't kill too many (coughs... MK9) and they die awesomely (cough... not MK9).

[aphelion4]

If they killed off ANY character I even remotely liked I will be pissed. Which means that if any of the DA:O and DA2 cast dies (excluding Merril. I hate Merril) I will be pissed and I will probably never touch the game again.

So yes, give me my sunshine and lolipops ending or I will be one cranky ****.

[Kabraxal]

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

I'm the last person who'd advocate this, but we have to accept that there are some things that are beyond our character's control however powerful they may seem. It's often the actions which we have no choice over that act as a dramatic and narrative device to spur us on in our decision making. 

Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative. We, as roleplayers however, need to come to terms with the fact that out choices can't micromanage every single aspect of every single character's life, and that dark and depressing things sometimes happen that are beyond our control. We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning, but we shouldn't expect to be able to make everything sunshine and lollipops. 

We had that in DA2... and that really didn't go over to well.  And there are those that would disagree that you can't save someone no matter what you do.  So having a game giving you choice then going "hah.. doesn't matter they die!" only pisses those people off.  Why bother to offer the choice if it really doesn't change anything?  

[Tenshi]

yea, and dont forget to revive anders. i want to kill that bastard again.

[JobacNoor]

Genshie wrote...

JobacNoor wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

Same reason why I chose to betray Krogans, kill Mordin, and choose control after promising to destroy the Reapers in ME3. It is different and it is fun to sometimes go against your normal morals.

You have no soul.

Well he wasn't my ANGRY/POWER HUNGRY/CERBERUS SUPPORTER Shepard for nothing. I like to roleplay various different character mind sets. If you like all my other Sheps chose destroy.

Oh, I get that. I just played through Tuchanka with my own ANGRY/POWER HUNGRY/CERBERUS SUPPORTER Shepard yesterday, and I just couldn't go through with sabotaging the cure. I felt beyond filthy when trying to convince myself that I should do it because this was my most renegade Shepard. Maybe if I'd managed to be more of a heartless bastard in ME1 so I wouldn't have had to stab Wrex in the back and eventually having to kill him in addition to screwing over his entire race. I'm just too big a softy, even when trying to roleplay as a character that's the opposite.

[MegWithAMouth]

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did.. do not pull a GoT and shove trauma and angst into the plot just to be "edgy". There is enough darkness in GoT that I could do without any for quite some time... actually am quite sick of that level of darkness.

I agree with this. One of things that appeal to me most about Bioware games is the fact that choice is such a huge part of their games. Obviously death is a part of any war, but I don't think they should kill off a ton of main characters just for the sake of doing so. I think people would connect to the story more if the amount of friends/people you lost in the game was actually affected by the choices you did or didn't make. And that doesn't always mean "paragon choice = good ending". I also think there's a happy medium for Inquisition that exists somewhere between the Red Wedding and ultra-lighthearted fantasy such a Fable. 

[King Cousland]

Kabraxal wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

I'm the last person who'd advocate this, but we have to accept that there are some things that are beyond our character's control however powerful they may seem. It's often the actions which we have no choice over that act as a dramatic and narrative device to spur us on in our decision making. 

Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative. We, as roleplayers however, need to come to terms with the fact that out choices can't micromanage every single aspect of every single character's life, and that dark and depressing things sometimes happen that are beyond our control. We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning, but we shouldn't expect to be able to make everything sunshine and lollipops. 

We had that in DA2... and that really didn't go over to well.  And there are those that would disagree that you can't save someone no matter what you do.  So having a game giving you choice then going "hah.. doesn't matter they die!" only pisses those people off.  Why bother to offer the choice if it really doesn't change anything?  

Firstly, where did we have that in DA II? 

Also notice the following lines: "Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative... We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning"

I'm advocating more choice, more decision making which will affect the world around you. What I'm rallying against is the expectation that we should be able to ringfence certain characters just because we like them. They have lives beyond the PC, you know? More generally - it's a war. People die. 

[Ianamus]

There's a difference between portraying a war as realistically dark and going so overboard it becomes ridiculous. 

Look at Mass Effect 3's ending: Killing Shepard and having the galaxy in ruins wasn't enough- you had to either kill the Geth and Edi to destroy the Reapers, have Shepard become some creepy AI god or combine all organic and synthetic life. And because that still wasn't dark enough they had to strand all of your squad members on a random planet in the middle of nowhere with the implication that it eventually created an in-bred colony. 

I really, really don't want a repeat of that. If there's one thing that kills off a work of fiction for me it's darkness induced audience apathy. 

Modifié par EJ107, 10 juin 2013 - 10:15 .

[Kabraxal]

MegWithAMouth wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did.. do not pull a GoT and shove trauma and angst into the plot just to be "edgy". There is enough darkness in GoT that I could do without any for quite some time... actually am quite sick of that level of darkness.

I agree with this. One of things that appeal to me most about Bioware games is the fact that choice is such a huge part of their games. Obviously death is a part of any war, but I don't think they should kill off a ton of main characters just for the sake of doing so. I think people would connect to the story more if the amount of friends/people you lost in the game was actually affected by the choices you did or didn't make. And that doesn't always mean "paragon choice = good ending". I also think there's a happy medium for Inquisition that exists somewhere between the Red Wedding and ultra-lighthearted fantasy such a Fable. 

Having a more "renegade" choice be the best sometimes would be nice actually... where the "goody two shoes" kinda choice actually bites back hard later.  That would be amazing so long as you can organically trace it back and go "duh.. that was why!".  And the game can have its Red Wedding.. so long as you can chose not to walk into that and avoid it as well... seriously avoid it.. like by running away as fast possible

 

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

I'm the last person who'd advocate this, but we have to accept that there are some things that are beyond our character's control however powerful they may seem. It's often the actions which we have no choice over that act as a dramatic and narrative device to spur us on in our decision making. 

Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative. We, as roleplayers however, need to come to terms with the fact that out choices can't micromanage every single aspect of every single character's life, and that dark and depressing things sometimes happen that are beyond our control. We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning, but we shouldn't expect to be able to make everything sunshine and lollipops. 

We had that in DA2... and that really didn't go over to well.  And there are those that would disagree that you can't save someone no matter what you do.  So having a game giving you choice then going "hah.. doesn't matter they die!" only pisses those people off.  Why bother to offer the choice if it really doesn't change anything?  

Firstly, where did we have that in DA II? 

Also notice the following lines: "Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative... We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning"

I'm advocating more choice, more decision making which will affect the world around you. What I'm rallying against is the expectation that we should be able to ringfence certain characters just because we like them. They have lives beyond the PC, you know? More generally - it's a war. People die. 

DA2 was full of "your choices really don't matter"... the mother, the whole third act... hell, the first hour of the game throws a death at you based only on your class choice.  It's not horrid in that instance but after that it just really builds up.  And I love DA2, but you cannot argue that the illusion of choice in that game wasn't that convincing with many huge events.  Things happened regardless because the plan the designers had required them to happen... hopefully DA3 is much more fluid and flexible.

Modifié par Kabraxal, 10 juin 2013 - 10:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Kabraxal wrote...

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

What you're asking for isn't adding choice, what you're advocating for is making your story pathetically happy because you're unable to deal with a darker narrative. If you cared about roleplaying and choice, you'd roleplay during those dark segments and make choices.

Said choices doesn't have to be between "happy" and "unhappy", it could be "sacrifice your best friend" and "sacrifice your family" or "win the battle but lose your friends" and "lose the battle but have your friends by your side".

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop. 

Watch the disney channel.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 juin 2013 - 10:20 .

[King Cousland]

Kabraxal wrote...

 

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Give us choice... DAO worked because it could be as dark or "lighter" depending on what you did..

Then why the **** would you take the darker options if you can get a happily-ever after ending?

I've done it a few times in DAO... imagine that, actually ROLE PLAYING and choosing different things.  O but wait... we can't have that anymore so lets shut down choice and arbitrarily force the players to watch as their favourite NPC's dia all around just because...

Seriously... this "let's force darkness" crap going on really needs to stop.  The whole purpose of having multiple choices to make is to actually have different outcomes ranging from good to horrible.. not o just slightly less horible and nothing you can do can make it brighter.

I'm the last person who'd advocate this, but we have to accept that there are some things that are beyond our character's control however powerful they may seem. It's often the actions which we have no choice over that act as a dramatic and narrative device to spur us on in our decision making. 

Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative. We, as roleplayers however, need to come to terms with the fact that out choices can't micromanage every single aspect of every single character's life, and that dark and depressing things sometimes happen that are beyond our control. We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning, but we shouldn't expect to be able to make everything sunshine and lollipops. 

We had that in DA2... and that really didn't go over to well.  And there are those that would disagree that you can't save someone no matter what you do.  So having a game giving you choice then going "hah.. doesn't matter they die!" only pisses those people off.  Why bother to offer the choice if it really doesn't change anything?  

Firstly, where did we have that in DA II? 

Also notice the following lines: "Choices should indeed shape the overall narrative... We should have the power to make Thedas a better place upon the game's ending than at it's beginning"

I'm advocating more choice, more decision making which will affect the world around you. What I'm rallying against is the expectation that we should be able to ringfence certain characters just because we like them. They have lives beyond the PC, you know? More generally - it's a war. People die. 

DA2 was full of "your choices really don't matter"... the mother, the whole third act... hell, the first hour of the game throws a death at you based only on your class choice.  It's not horrid in that instance but after that it just really builds up.  And I love DA2, but you cannot argue that the illusion of choice in that game wasn't that convincing with many huge events.  Things happened regardless because the plan the designers had required them to happen... hopefully DA3 is much more fluid and flexible.

Oh I couldn't agree more that in terms of their impact on the overall narrative, choices in DA II were handled apallingly. However, there was nothing that shocked me in DA II. There was no death or even potential death of a character whom I'd grown attatched to (apart from maybe Marethari). If anything, DA II really did try too hard to go, "Look at me, I'm DARK! I'm so SPOOKY!" What's that? Oh, another tertiary NPC's just been bumped off *shrug*

Killing off just one major character and giving us no control over this death can have much more of a lasting and devastating emotional impact that the roster of bland, detatched nobodies DA II got rid of. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 10 juin 2013 - 10:25 .

[LoonySpectre]

Killing off characters just for the sake of it doesn't make narration "darker". It just makes it more ridiculous.

[Rafficus III]

Yes, yes, let the dark side flow through you. And let us take away their cake as well. It was always a lie!