340 réponses à ce sujet

[pejot82]

 No, I'm not going to make any sort of speculation about a game I haven't played yet. However looking at all developer blogs, interviews and every other piece of information available, I see a rather sad and pretty hard to explain phenomenon of simply throwing away elements of original game and replacing them with new features that ... well, we'll have to wait to experience ourselves weather they're good or bad. Let's just look at some examples:

It's already obvious that our new party members won't wear any armor. All this is justified by claiming that now they're more unique in their 'outfits', that their shields/barriers are enough (to protect against vacuum, environment etc as well?) and that old system was too difficult. I don't get the first two. The third is almost like an insult, really. Same with weapons. Now we'll have a replication system, auto weapon picking etc. Not to mention the fact that you only pick gear before the missions. As much as I see a problem with changing armors in middle of a fight being far from realistic, but not being able to pick a weapon from an enemy I've just killed?

The old system wasn't perfect but I can't see a reason why It couldn't just be improved, instead of being thrown away completely. Now we won't have the dilemma who should get the awesome weapon or armor you just found but there's only one piece. The crappy loot system from ME1 took that away before you reached lvl 10, but hey, wouldn't that be cool and 'RPG-ish'.  Plus, if old inventory system was difficult (console version was worst than PC, i know that much) and boring won't long and complex customizing and research be difficult and boring as well?

Since I mentioned loot. Why instead if improving we got it literally removed. Instead of a small change that would make every 'drop' valuable instead of 100 zillion items after every fight, now we just scan stuff and replicate. And with no ingame inventory (so it seems) and auto-pickup it seems we're most likely to find out we got something new after missions, aboard Normandy. Instead of finding new mods and ammo during battle, we get ammo powers and necessity of doing sidequests and explotation + research. So where's that immersion, pace and streamlining, that is mentioned so often?

Skill implementation in ME wasn't perfect so the total number was reduced. Again removing instead if improving. Without ammo skills most classes would actually have only 2-3 skills left. Isn't that absurd? If stat based shooting or damage resistance was unrealistic then how come skill based ammunition that increases it's damage with 'skill points' isn't.

Skill based hacking/'lock-picking' was criticized, but again it just got totally removed. Couldn't it be simply more difficult for untrained chars. Why could a soldier have less time/more obstacles in hacking mini game, while a tech specialist would get an easier version as his skills progress. some people seem to like challenges - there you go, both options exist, all are happy.

Mako wasn't best to dive - removed and replaced by a shuttle type craft that just drops the party near target. Only rumors about a misterious craft we can actually pilot.

Planet exploration was boring - removed and replaced by 10-30 min missions so in fact separate maps likely to be smaller in size that BDtS.

More examples could be presented and probably even more ideas how to improve. New doesn't always mean better and I really can't understand why BioWare didn't rely on their fans instead of making changes for people that might not even care about the game or franchise. Instead of questionable marketing including cheesy movies and huge spoilers they could show mechanics that are created first anyway, and most likely separately from character design and story. Show it, explain, get feedback and make choices best for the game.

[DeathCultArm]

Their making the game more acessiable. While shunning some of the original fan-base, they are attracting many new prospective gamers.

IMO they've made alot of sideways steps, instead of striaght forward. OK, you add armor customization for shep, but the squad is now reduced to outfits?

You get rid of medi-gel, and heath auto regens, but you add ammo?

Ok now weapons are upgradable, but the ENTIRE inventosy system is gone.

No more Mako mountain climbing, but now it completely removed?

Armor is now cosmetically customizable, yet upgrades are gone?

Ammo powers are now player powers, but there are only 4 kinds?

I can't judge the game, as it could still be great. But it just seems like BW made alot fo drastic, uncessary design choices.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 17 janvier 2010 - 03:05 .

[dirtypaulie]

Some valid points there buddy. I can agree with you totally but like you said we have to wait to play & judge for ourselves. I just like to say when does Bioware disappoint? 8 yrs L8tr & my 27 yr old brother just bought KOTOR again to kill time this wk while waiting for ME2. This company knows what its doing & I doubt they want to make us unhappy

[biomag]

Simply don't buy the game. You claim you are not judging it without playing it, but the whole post just sounds like a rant, sorry.



While I understand your concerns I will wait till I played the game. The inventory system doesn't sound that great, but truth is I don't care if it they try something new. Maybe it will work out, I for sure can't tell now. There are many new things added to the game so that maybe you won't even notice that things got removed as you have to deal with a lot of other parts of the game.



I don't know how the game will be, so I won't rant about it until I played it. Neither will I say how great it is going to be. With ME 1 I was just enjoying the story, characters and choices, the rest was nice and in no way great, but still it was a fantastic game because the focus of the whole experience playing it was based on story, characters and choices. You could be complaining about the ammo in ME 1, but it was just an detail compare to the rest of the game. Maybe it will be the same with those skills that got removed, MAKO (that was simply horrible at ME 1, glad this thing is out) and so on...

[DeathCultArm]

That EA logo is on the box...I trust BW, but ALOT of the deisgn choices reek of EA. I know they don't develop the game...but it seems like their influence is being felt.

It is a bit of a rant. Everyone knows the positives of the game, I was shedding light ont he negatives. I was playing devil's advocate. I have the game pre-ordered, so a few complaints are in order.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 17 janvier 2010 - 03:12 .

[glacier1701]

 Without having played the game it is hard to comment on how well the changes that have been made actually work together. What you do have to understand though is that the vast majority of changes are in response to what was described as either not working well (inventory), outright flawed (combat for instance) or just was not used as the developers thought it would be by the players (the Mako fits in here). With what we have seen I do think some of the changes have gone too far the other way (lack of armour for squaddies for example) and I can see some potential here for immersion breaking issues. Unfortunately until we get our paws onto the game we are stuck in not being able to properly see the whole structure in action. My own personal opinion at the moment is that while trying to address our issues they may not have necessarily understood why we felt they were issues in the first place and tackled them the wrong way. In 9 days we'll see the product and at that time can make a proper judgement on what they did.

[bjdbwea]

I don't know. The more I read about the game (though I try not to), the more I fear there'll be some disappointment. I just hope BioWare know what they're doing. We'll just have to wait and see. Needless to say, I'll refrain from buying part 3 at full price if I'm disappointed with part 2.

[DeathCultArm]

It just seems like it will be Terminator 1/2 syndone. Where it will be a good sequel, but not much like the first.

[dirtypaulie]

with me I have 1 of those feeling. In part 1 combat wasn't great at all but I played for the story as well like the gentleman above had posted I spent hours upon hours of playing it. I know i'm gonna enjoy part 2 more than part 1.

[kregano]

pejot82 wrote...
It's already obvious that our new party members won't wear any armor. All this is justified by claiming that now they're more unique in their 'outfits', that their shields/barriers are enough (to protect against vacuum, environment etc as well?) and that old system was too difficult. I don't get the first two. The third is almost like an insult, really. Same with weapons. Now we'll have a replication system, auto weapon picking etc. Not to mention the fact that you only pick gear before the missions. As much as I see a problem with changing armors in middle of a fight being far from realistic, but not being able to pick a weapon from an enemy I've just killed?

Christina Norman or one of the other devs stated that you can pick up enemy weapons. That's when the scanning thing comes into play, by allowing you to just grab the one gun and make more copies for squad members who can actually use it. It's a lot more scifi than the old system, which consisted of grabbing everything you could find and hauling it all with you, and makes more sense in terms of the Mass Effect lore.

Since I mentioned loot. Why instead if improving we got it literally removed. Instead of a small change that would make every 'drop' valuable instead of 100 zillion items after every fight, now we just scan stuff and replicate. And with no ingame inventory (so it seems) and auto-pickup it seems we're most likely to find out we got something new after missions, aboard Normandy. Instead of finding new mods and ammo during battle, we get ammo powers and necessity of doing sidequests and explotation + research. So where's that immersion, pace and streamlining, that is mentioned so often?

There's a screenshot on the Bioware blog showing Shepard scanning a new gun, so if you do find something better than what you've got, you're going to know it's waiting for your squad at the next gun locker. As for the making the sidequest necessary for survival, that is streamlining and increased immersion, because randomly flying around the galaxy looking for minerals and trinkets that honestly don't have much value beyond XP was incredibly annoying. And the research thing again fits into the whole scifi nature of the game much better than the old system, where you could find ammo and mods in sludge containers, of all things.

Skill implementation in ME wasn't perfect so the total number was reduced. Again removing instead if improving. Without ammo skills most classes would actually have only 2-3 skills left. Isn't that absurd? If stat based shooting or damage resistance was unrealistic then how come skill based ammunition that increases it's damage with 'skill points' isn't.

I actually have to agree here, I think the ammo skill could've been incorporated better (I personally think that all classes should get all ammo types), but Bioware's obviously trying to differentiate the classes through their skill sets.

Skill based hacking/'lock-picking' was criticized, but again it just got totally removed. Couldn't it be simply more difficult for untrained chars. Why could a soldier have less time/more obstacles in hacking mini game, while a tech specialist would get an easier version as his skills progress. some people seem to like challenges - there you go, both options exist, all are happy.

The problem with skill based hacking was the old system used in ME1, which was just Simon. While I agree that you could make a system that had varying difficulty depending on whether or not you had a hacking skill and what level it was, the problem is whether or not you want to sacrifice something from some other part of the game in order to fit the game onto the disc, which has finite memory space.

Mako wasn't best to dive - removed and replaced by a shuttle type craft that just drops the party near target. Only rumors about a misterious craft we can actually pilot.

Personally, I like the dropship. It gets me where I want to go fast and it doesn't have to deal with the hassles the Mako had to manuever through on practically every UNC.

Planet exploration was boring - removed and replaced by 10-30 min missions so in fact separate maps likely to be smaller in size that BDtS.

Hey, I'm willing to trade quantity of planets for quality planets, especially if I don't have to drive around looking minerals that don't show up on the map for some reason. As long as the sidequest planets are interesting and unique, not the cookie cutter sets used in ME1, I'll be happy.

Modifié par kregano, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:21 .

[withateethuh]

pejot82 wrote...

 No, I'm not going to make any sort of speculation about a game I haven't played yet. However....

I see what you did there.

[javierabegazo]

The DROPSHIP =/= MAKO REPLACEMENT

[javierabegazo]

pejot82 wrote...
So where's that immersion, pace and streamlining, that is mentioned so often?

Are you serious...? The system of researching and modding weapons in ME2 is MUCH more immersive than simply shooting a guy and oh bam, a weapon and a mod just randomly pop into your inventory.

In ME1 I never even bothered going to shops except for grenade/medigel upgrades because it was so easy to find better equipment in the field. It was Horribly broken. and not fun at all.

It's not fun going into a mission and coming out with 150+ new items, of which 80% you know are inferior to your current load out.

Sorry but I'm think you're just scared of change

[Sleepicub09]

javierabegazo wrote...

pejot82 wrote...
So where's that immersion, pace and streamlining, that is mentioned so often?

Are you serious...? The system of researching and modding weapons in ME2 is MUCH more immersive than simply shooting a guy and oh bam, a weapon and a mod just randomly pop into your inventory.

In ME1 I never even bothered going to shops except for grenade/medigel upgrades because it was so easy to find better equipment in the field. It was Horribly broken. and not fun at all.

It's not fun going into a mission and coming out with 150+ new items, of which 80% you know are inferior to your current load out.

Sorry but I'm think you're just scared of change

I concur

[ArcanistLibram]

Removing useless crap is generally an improvement, yes.

[Eragondragonrider]

Idk it sounds like with the changes to the game EA/Bioware was making it more realistic, don't get me wrong a loved at lvl 60 being able to take out my assault riffle, hold down the trigger and walk through an area killing everything but it was a little impractical that the gun never overheated with the right upgrades. I didn't mind the mako, also I think most of the changes will be great, never really used skill in game, and most of the time I was just reducing everything to omni-gel anyway, so I think the changes will make it more focus on the story then on controlling your inventory.

[ZelaineGW]

I agree with the OP

While I won't judge until I play, they just removed everything instead of trying to fix things. Even if things are better now, something about it is just fishy.

They could have made a better inventory system, but that would have been work.
They could have made armor look better and changed how it looks depending on who wears it, but that would have been work.

I'll wait to play before I judge but it sure the hell sounds to me like they took some shortcuts and just didn't want to do the work.

Modifié par ZelaineGW, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:22 .

[javierabegazo]

scyphozoa wrote...


as for the argument that bioware is not putting in "work" or trying to take easy way out, i call bull****. developing a game is an insane amount of work, just because its something you don't like doesn't mean it was easy to do or did not require hours of work. please don't be so ignorant.

Quote for Truth

[DeathCultArm]

Having to retrive ammo, wait for health to regen, and the veins, all kill the immersion....Easily. Entirely removing system b/c they didn't work in the first game just seems lazy.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:36 .

[izmirtheastarach]

javierabegazo wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...


as for the argument that bioware is not putting in "work" or trying to take easy way out, i call bull****. developing a game is an insane amount of work, just because its something you don't like doesn't mean it was easy to do or did not require hours of work. please don't be so ignorant.

Quote for Truth

And they are trying something different. I am so sick of the traditional RPG style inventory system. I don't know if this will be better, but I look forward to giving it a try.

[JosephShrike]

Just pointing out that the hacking system in ME1 was basically removed in the PC version of the game. My only real "WTF" moments are with companion armor and the inventory. I think they really improved on the inventory in the PC over the 360 version, so I assumed they would work off of that. The armor thing initially struck me as kind of weird. But then I started thinking about it and I realized that wanted that damn N7 so much in the real game I risked running around in Onyx even though it sucked, and I put Ash in the Phoenix whenever I could.

The last part, though, was because it's pink and she's a girl, and I'm a sexist. I'll let her shoot things, but she's going to dress like a proper space marine lady, damnit!

Edit: Upon thinking on it more, I am a little concerned about the planetary exploration side of things. That was kind of one of the more interesting things about the first one, being all setting foot on places not touched by any other humans. So I'm willing to wait and see before I get all worked up about it, but it is a slight concern on how they're gonna change it up.

Modifié par JosephShrike, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:39 .

[javierabegazo]

JosephShrike wrote...

The last part, though, was because it's pink and she's a girl, and I'm a sexist. I'll let her shoot things, but she's going to dress like a proper space marine lady, damnit!

Looks like you and Jack are going to have words

[pejot82]

javierabegazo wrote...
Are you serious...? The system of researching and modding weapons in ME2 is MUCH more immersive than simply shooting a guy and oh bam, a weapon and a mod just randomly pop into your inventory.

In ME1 I never even bothered going to shops except for grenade/medigel upgrades because it was so easy to find better equipment in the field. It was Horribly broken. and not fun at all.

It's not fun going into a mission and coming out with 150+ new items, of which 80% you know are inferior to your current load out.

Sorry but I'm think you're just scared of change

Read the whole paragraph and comment again. I do understand you're excited about the game, but your ability to criticize some things as absurd, while defending other, that are as absurd, just in their own specific way is just remarkable.

How about making most enemies run with standard issue, crappy weapons that get damaged anyway while their owners get killed by your bullets, skills, biotics... but when you do find something, make it worth it. Why scan/replicate? Why can't finding something be unique or important.  Why having to choose who gets the kick-ass shotgun - Grunt or SuZe would be a bad idea? Why distributing any rare and powerful items and upgrades among your quite a big team wouldn't fit the immerse and 'tactical' concept so many defenders of new order shout about every time people have doubts about changes. Is that a worse idea than picking weapons and making them available to anyone? Isn't picking a weapon and then not being able to use it until you find a 'gun locker' realistic?

Modifié par pejot82, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:53 .

[JosephShrike]

javierabegazo wrote...

JosephShrike wrote...

The last part, though, was because it's pink and she's a girl, and I'm a sexist. I'll let her shoot things, but she's going to dress like a proper space marine lady, damnit!

Looks like you and Jack are going to have words

I dunno. Given the way she dresses and acts, I think my sexism is something she'll have to wait to deal with. At least until she gets over all her daddy issues.