Guest_Catch This Fade_*
I don't see anything about FFXV that is particularly shounen except that there's a group of people on an adventure, which would tag almost every JRPG (and WRPG) as a shounen. If it's the boy band thing, that's not a shounen thing.
Kicking dat anime/manga knowlege doe
On another note, I read something that made the combat sound not so terrible so I'm back to being interested in playing this instead of reluctantly interested.
^ Hm. That makes the combat sound more tolerable, so I'm glad to hear that. Nothing more frustrating than a broken battle system in a game you have to slug out for over 50 hours.
I also need to play Type-0, but getting an import from Japan is expensive and a pain. Sigh.
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
^I also need to play Type-0, but getting an import from Japan is expensive and a pain. Sigh.
Me too. I'm hoping to go the PS4/Xbox One route as that comes with the FFXV demo anyway.
Me too. I'm hoping to go the PS4/Xbox One route as that comes with the FFXV demo anyway.
I'm holding out on a next-gen console until next year because I don't like to spend too much of my student finance, but I'll probably get it if the price is reduced a bit. I'd rather it was a Vita download than a PS4 one, since the HD proooobably won't match up on a bigger screen.
Kicking dat anime/manga knowlege doe
On another note, I read something that made the combat sound not so terrible so I'm back to being interested in playing this instead of reluctantly interested.
Consider me slightly more hyped. Still being weary around it until I get hold of the demo though.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
It just seems inevitable with success comes increasing fans and popularity and increasing expectations. Ever since FF7 really the series has been burdened with a need for high-octane emo-ish protagonists with a stylish haircut. Ever since X the series seems to have assumed we need train track map and level design with lots of awesome I win buttons and stuff.
A lot of times people seem to want the same thing, basically, so the expectations create the repetitive content.
Money is just like if someone spends 50 million dollars on something, they aren't going to go oh hey that's a crazy killer clown type character with no apparent morals or justification for anything he does, we can't have 'him' in the game (even if he's the antagonist). Would a Kefka type character be allowed in a later Final Fantasy? No, some MBA or whoever would object, saying it's too far outside the norm and some hapless gener-O-villain would be put in their place. Never mind that's how the FF brand (which generates money in the present time) was created in the first place.
Anyway, I'm not really referring to any one person's expectations (such as yours), it was just more of a general thing. And really, there probably something to be enjoyed in that game at any rate.
I can't agree at all about Kefka. It's a matter of good writing. A villain who is a villain because he's insane is not good writing. It's easy. It's far more work to make a believable villain, to make a villain who's actually relate-able (one area where LR fails, in my opinion). Let me say that personally.
I don't know what an MBA is, but REALLY, in Lightning Returns Lightning becomes a GODDESS and fights a GOD. Please don't tell me that's not "outside the norm."
I'll agree that there's far too much hype with the series. However, there SHOULD be a balance of familiar things without becoming too rigid for innovation.
And Reezy, that looked a lot more spastic than I was expecting too. It was surprising. I got the sense that THAT was a viable playstyle in addition to the more flowing method.
One thing I noticed--it didn't seem particularly difficult. Probably because it's a demo, but didn't seem too hard.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
It's really the narrow-minded ignorance of it all. "Sausagefest", "Alienating to the male demographic", I've seen many a justification for why this cast is terrible. Any arguments like that are automatically worth zero because Final Fantasy X-2 exist. And because its conveniently ignored. But ignoring that, the devs can explore whatever themes they want and the gender and appearance of the main cast sure as hell isn't indicative of much of anything.
It's worth mentioning that we just came off a trilogy, an entire trilogy, focused around a couple of female characters.
It's worth mentioning that we just came off a trilogy, an entire trilogy, focused around a couple of female characters.
And they were (mostly) shallow and predictable, and more than a bit badly written, so... Not a good track record.
Plus, there were still numerous male party members (Sazh, Hope, Snow compared to Lightning, Vanille, and Fang - then Serah and Noel), so the ratio of male:female wasn't as ridiculous as 5:1. It was always 1:1.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
And they were (mostly) shallow and predictable, and more than a bit badly written, so... Not a good track record.
Plus, there were still numerous male party members (Sazh, Hope, Snow compared to Lightning, Vanille, and Fang - then Serah and Noel), so the ratio of male:female wasn't as ridiculous as 5:1. It was always 1:1.
I'll ignore the subjective bits.
The ratio may have been the same, but the males in XIII were pretty much placeholders. The females were the "stars" of that plot.
For XIII-2, I'd say they both shared a part, Serah and Noel (and Caius + Yeul, of course).
And for LR, of course, it was Light alone. And not only was it Light alone, but she was a goddess.
Do I need to repeat that? People don't seem to have wrapped their heads around it. Lightning was a goddess in the third game of the trilogy who fought god.
So SE is hardly guilty of stuffing women into some back corner to only be brought out as damsels-in-distress. Thus, this all-male party, designed as an all-male party from the start of the game's development--from the start of the game's development as a spin off title like X-2--is perfectly fine.
I can't agree at all about Kefka. It's a matter of good writing. A villain who is a villain because he's insane is not good writing. It's easy. It's far more work to make a believable villain, to make a villain who's actually relate-able (one area where LR fails, in my opinion). Let me say that personally.
I don't know what an MBA is, but REALLY, in Lightning Returns Lightning becomes a GODDESS and fights a GOD. Please don't tell me that's not "outside the norm."
I'll agree that there's far too much hype with the series. However, there SHOULD be a balance of familiar things without becoming too rigid for innovation.
I didn't actually get to Lightning Returns so I don't know what to say to that, it seemed similar to the rest of the series, which were overall in the same vein of X, and also XIII. If they pulled a crazy thunder god out their behind then good for them.
I'll ignore the subjective bits.
The ratio may have been the same, but the males in XIII were pretty much placeholders. The females were the "stars" of that plot.
For XIII-2, I'd say they both shared a part, Serah and Noel (and Caius + Yeul, of course).
And for LR, of course, it was Light alone. And not only was it Light alone, but she was a goddess.
Do I need to repeat that? People don't seem to have wrapped their heads around it. Lightning was a goddess in the third game of the trilogy who fought god.
So SE is hardly guilty of stuffing women into some back corner to only be brought out as damsels-in-distress. Thus, this all-male party, designed as an all-male party from the start of the game's development--from the start of the game's development as a spin off title like X-2--is perfectly fine.
Not really? Hope and Snow both had important character arcs, and Snow was about as important to the story as Lightning was in the vanilla game, both him and her trying equally hard to save Serah. That was a huge focus of much of the development of the whole game - her and him having to come to terms with the fact that they both care about Serah, and both want to protect her in their own ways. Similarly, Sazh's concerns about his kid, while not central, were treated incredibly seriously, and the way he was handled wasn't indicative of him being brushed aside.
Just because they're not plot devices intended to drive it forward doesn't mean they were place-holders. If anything, Fang and Vanille existing purely just to go "lol ragnarok bye" says they were less important to the writing than anybody else was, since anybody on the team could've filled that part without any change of personality, and they didn't have any proper connection with the team like the others did. They didn't fuel any realisations or companionship or even interact properly with the others, with the exception of maybe Sazh and Vanille, but that was mostly her doing whatever and him just tagging along in the hopes of seeing his son again because she reminded him of Dajh.
Also, LR was a daft fanservice game. Just replace "Divine Etro" with "the fans" and you'll see why - she only ~returns~ because the fans wanted her to. Pointing out (even incorrectly) that one of the worst Final Fantasy titles yet focused mostly on females isn't exactly doing much to say FFXV will be handled any better.
To address your final sentence, in which you gloriously strawman my objections to make a point that wasn't even accurate, I know they don't. That's not what I care about. What I care about is the fact that there's no variety at all to the main characters - they're all just pretty, white, human males, and that's boring. Give me a Kimahri or a Terra or an Agrias or a Red XIII, at least.
Why do they bother numbering them at this point?
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
I didn't actually get to Lightning Returns so I don't know what to say to that, it seemed similar to the rest of the series, which were overall in the same vein of X, and also XIII. If they pulled a crazy thunder god out their behind then good for them.
Well you probably didn't know too much about the Fabula Nova Crystallis lore--most people don't--but it includes several gods--Pulse and Lindzei and Etro are a few. One of those suddenly shows up in the story, and basically offers Light her sister back if she completes certain tasks. However, in the end he resolves to destroy the world and let all the humans die, just because LULZ, so Light and everyone else (the entire crew is around, like 10+ people) defeat him with the power of friendship.
Not really? Hope and Snow both had important character arcs, and Snow was about as important to the story as Lightning was in the vanilla game, both him and her trying equally hard to save Serah. That was a huge focus of much of the development of the whole game - her and him having to come to terms with the fact that they both care about Serah, and both want to protect her in their own ways. Similarly, Sazh's concerns about his kid, while not central, were treated incredibly seriously, and the way he was handled wasn't indicative of him being brushed aside.
Just because they're not plot devices intended to drive it forward doesn't mean they were place-holders. If anything, Fang and Vanille existing purely just to go "lol ragnarok bye" says they were less important to the writing than anybody else was, since anybody on the team could've filled that part without any change of personality, and they didn't have any proper connection with the team like the others did. They didn't fuel any realisations or companionship or even interact properly with the others, with the exception of maybe Sazh and Vanille, but that was mostly her doing whatever and him just tagging along in the hopes of seeing his son again because she reminded him of Dajh.
Also, LR was a daft fanservice game. Just replace "Divine Etro" with "the fans" and you'll see why - she only ~returns~ because the fans wanted her to. Pointing out (even incorrectly) that one of the worst Final Fantasy titles yet focused mostly on females isn't exactly doing much to say FFXV will be handled any better.
To address your final sentence, in which you gloriously strawman my objections to make a point that wasn't even accurate, I know they don't. That's not what I care about. What I care about is the fact that there's no variety at all to the main characters - they're all just pretty, white, human males, and that's boring. Give me a Kimahri or a Terra or an Agrias or a Red XIII, at least.
I shouldn't have used the word place-holder, it was the wrong word to use. However, they are not central to the plot, and in terms of...judging a work's value on a scale of "sexism," that's equally important as characterization. Rinoa may have had great characterization (I'm not saying she did, I'm pretty neutral about FF8 except for that nonsensical we-all-grew-up-together thing), but she's reduced to hanging around waiting for Squall and his merry band to solve her problems (until later).
Hope had a decent arc, I'll agree, but it ended with a whimper instead of a bang: him providing the group with these inane pep-talks. The closest thing Snow has to an arc is his arc with Hope, which is again decent but ultimately goes nowhere. Nothing really changes about him. Sazh was alright, but it felt very much like he was just along for the ride.
I pretty much, pretty much, agree that LR was fanservice--except for the fact, of course, that everyone was screaming NO MORE LIGHTNING after XIII and even more so after XIII-2. And the fact that each sequel had HALF the sales of the previous one. So while I understand your point (and in fact I personally did not care for LR too much, for that whole reason--the costume dress-up), I don't think it's applicable in terms of Lightning's status. I called it the moment I finished XIII-2, I knew she'd become a goddess.
As for your final paragraph, I apologize. I didn't mean to strawman you. Nowhere in your post did you discuss diversity, creatures like Red XIII or even black/white all that. We were discussing the complaints about an all-male cast, and you made a comment about males and females. Again, I apologize for misunderstanding you, but what was I supposed to think when we're talking about gender, and then you join the conversation talking about gender?
Why do they bother numbering them at this point?
Why not? It's an easy way to have a game name. Just slap the next number up on it, done.
If you're arguing that it's no longer a cohesive series, I'd say it never was in the "traditional" ways, and always was (and still is) in the "FF" way.
I shouldn't have used the word place-holder, it was the wrong word to use. However, they are not central to the plot, and in terms of...judging a work's value on a scale of "sexism," that's equally important as characterization. Rinoa may have had great characterization (I'm not saying she did, I'm pretty neutral about FF8 except for that nonsensical we-all-grew-up-together thing), but she's reduced to hanging around waiting for Squall and his merry band to solve her problems (until later).
Hope had a decent arc, I'll agree, but it ended with a whimper instead of a bang: him providing the group with these inane pep-talks. The closest thing Snow has to an arc is his arc with Hope, which is again decent but ultimately goes nowhere. Nothing really changes about him. Sazh was alright, but it felt very much like he was just along for the ride.
I pretty much, pretty much, agree that LR was fanservice--except for the fact, of course, that everyone was screaming NO MORE LIGHTNING after XIII and even more so after XIII-2. And the fact that each sequel had HALF the sales of the previous one. So while I understand your point (and in fact I personally did not care for LR too much, for that whole reason--the costume dress-up), I don't think it's applicable in terms of Lightning's status. I called it the moment I finished XIII-2, I knew she'd become a goddess.
As for your final paragraph, I apologize. I didn't mean to strawman you. Nowhere in your post did you discuss diversity, creatures like Red XIII or even black/white all that. We were discussing the complaints about an all-male cast, and you made a comment about males and females. Again, I apologize for misunderstanding you, but what was I supposed to think when we're talking about gender, and then you join the conversation talking about gender?
Well, I won't disagree that they aren't central to the progression of the plot, but there's more to the writing of a game than just the main questline, and I consider characterisation part of that. Fang and Vanille might have progressed the questline, but I don't really consider them part of the game beyond that, because they never felt integrated beyond being the Ragnarok proxy. Sazh, Snow, and Hope all had distinct arcs and motivations of their own, however badly you feel they were handled, and were clearly more integral to the party than Fang and Vanille were, despite their plot cannons pushing them forward.
I agree that sexism should be an important part of discussion as well, and my lack of mention of it here is due to the fact that I don't think it's truly that much of an issue in FFXV. Simply having a mostly male cast doesn't necessarily make it sexist, just boring to look at.
And yeah, once more, I agree with your commentary on LR as well. I didn't care for anything in the FFXIII-verse, tbh, because I felt it was all rather forced and lacklustre, without any of the passion that the other games had. Although, I do think it's worth bringing up one of the things I mentioned in some of my first posts - LR's casting choice is different than FFXV's, in that it concerns an already established character. Even if fans didn't care, there was clearly a good enough reception to her to allow the writers to exploit their internal bias towards her, so I consider it a different situation.
(You could argue that Noctis and co. were already established in Versus, but that was unreleased, and thus I don't believe it applies.)
Again, to the last paragraph, it's fine. My original elaborations included these:
FFX-2 was different, in that, while it was an all-human and all-female cast, it regarded characters that had already been introduced and developed, and had been proven to be (although this is arguable, as with anything) well-written.
&
Then, the mostly male cast was announced (12 characters and only 2 of them are females, and they're all human), and I thought; sure, that's disappointing, since I was looking for some variety in who I'm playing as, but that's not anything game-breaking.
I bolded the parts I wanted to emphasise. I've consistently said in my original posts that I had an issue with the all-human aspect of the characters as well, and although that may not have been clear from my original one, I made sure to clarify in my following ones. It was the other posters who decided to zone in on the gender issue, and I replied based on that. That was on the last page, though, so I understand why it might not've come across that way in my recent posts.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Well, I won't disagree that they aren't central to the progression of the plot, but there's more to the writing of a game than just the main questline, and I consider characterisation part of that. Fang and Vanille might have progressed the questline, but I don't really consider them part of the game beyond that, because they never felt integrated beyond being the Ragnarok proxy. Sazh, Snow, and Hope all had distinct arcs and motivations of their own, however badly you feel they were handled, and were clearly more integral to the party than Fang and Vanille were, despite their plot cannons pushing them forward.
I agree that sexism should be an important part of discussion as well, and my lack of mention of it here is due to the fact that I don't think it's truly that much of an issue in FFXV. Simply having a mostly male cast doesn't necessarily make it sexist, just boring to look at.
And yeah, once more, I agree with your commentary on LR as well. I didn't care for anything in the FFXIII-verse, tbh, because I felt it was all rather forced and lacklustre, without any of the passion that the other games had. Although, I do think it's worth bringing up one of the things I mentioned in some of my first posts - LR's casting choice is different than FFXV's, in that it concerns an already established character. Even if fans didn't care, there was clearly a good enough reception to her to allow the writers to exploit their internal bias towards her, so I consider it a different situation.
(You could argue that Noctis and co. were already established in Versus, but that was unreleased, and thus I don't believe it applies.)
Again, to the last paragraph, it's fine. My original elaborations included these:
FFX-2 was different, in that, while it was an all-human and all-female cast, it regarded characters that had already been introduced and developed, and had been proven to be (although this is arguable, as with anything) well-written.
&
Then, the mostly male cast was announced (12 characters and only 2 of them are females, and they're all human), and I thought; sure, that's disappointing, since I was looking for some variety in who I'm playing as, but that's not anything game-breaking.
I bolded the parts I wanted to emphasise. I've consistently said in my original posts that I had an issue with the all-human aspect of the characters as well, and although that may not have been clear from my original one, I made sure to clarify in my following ones. It was the other posters who decided to zone in on the gender issue, and I replied based on that. That was on the last page, though, so I understand why it might not've come across that way in my recent posts.
I actually don't think their plotlines (Hope, Snow, Sazh) were bad. I'm one of the two people in the world who genuinely likes XIII and XIII-2 (LR is enjoyable, as long as I avoid the combat and don't think about the plot too much). I just personally didn't find them that...that valuable. That useful, either from a narrative standpoint or a gameplay perspective (best party is Fang/Light/Vanille). That's more what I'm basing it on. Less integral to the plot (though I'll agree more integral to the party--Hope brought about Light's arc, and Hope+Snow had their own).
About LR, one idea I've heard is that they were doing it to helpbreak even on Crystal Tools, that they apparently put crazy amounts of time and development into XIII, but tons was cut, so they made XIII-2, and then, just decided to move on to a trilogy (before XIII-2 was released--the ending clearly foreshadowed the next game).
As for your comments--part of the problem is the fact that I wasn't looking at your previous comments, I think. I was just looking at the most recent post. I'll try to be more conscientious from now on. I certainly understand your point--though I'm not sure I want a talking dog whose grandfather is a human with no legs who floats. I just don't even want to THINK about the genetics there (EDI: That was a joke).
I actually don't think their plotlines (Hope, Snow, Sazh) were bad. I'm one of the two people in the world who genuinely likes XIII and XIII-2 (LR is enjoyable, as long as I avoid the combat and don't think about the plot too much). I just personally didn't find them that...that valuable. That useful, either from a narrative standpoint or a gameplay perspective (best party is Fang/Light/Vanille). That's more what I'm basing it on. Less integral to the plot (though I'll agree more integral to the party--Hope brought about Light's arc, and Hope+Snow had their own).
About LR, one idea I've heard is that they were doing it to helpbreak even on Crystal Tools, that they apparently put crazy amounts of time and development into XIII, but tons was cut, so they made XIII-2, and then, just decided to move on to a trilogy (before XIII-2 was released--the ending clearly foreshadowed the next game).
As for your comments--part of the problem is the fact that I wasn't looking at your previous comments, I think. I was just looking at the most recent post. I'll try to be more conscientious from now on. I certainly understand your point--though I'm not sure I want a talking dog whose grandfather is a human with no legs who floats. I just don't even want to THINK about the genetics there (EDI: That was a joke).
Well, that's fair enough, actually. I agree their arcs weren't valuable to the plot in the same way that Lightning's was, but I do think that in terms of connecting with the others (and I view this as one of the most important parts in any writing-driven media) they were amongst the most essential, and I would therefore judge them to be more valuable. This is just my perspective, though, and we seem to have gotten different impressions. It happens. ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
And yeah, it can happen with discussions that drag on for more than one page - I've been in quite a few myself, unsurprisingly, lol - so I wanted to make sure it was out there that it wasn't the lack of females that was the sole problem, it was the fact that the cast seems to be very monotonous in general. I like to have a diverse cast, because I find that a diverse cast often brings more diverse personalities and mixes things up a bit, and I'm never a fan of just looking at the same thing over and over. The only reason I tolerated FFX-2 is because I loved Rikku and Yuna already from FFX, and I eventually grew to like Paine as well.
Well you probably didn't know too much about the Fabula Nova Crystallis lore--most people don't--but it includes several gods--Pulse and Lindzei and Etro are a few. One of those suddenly shows up in the story, and basically offers Light her sister back if she completes certain tasks. However, in the end he resolves to destroy the world and let all the humans die, just because LULZ, so Light and everyone else (the entire crew is around, like 10+ people) defeat him
with the power of friendship.
Well er that just sounds like gibberish to me. The earlier FFs had a greater emphasis on relationships, characters I could actually understand and relate to and all that.
I think that is actually what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game, somehow they extracted the lamest aspect, the sheen of slick and flashy explosions and violence from FF7 and made that the most important thing. It all has been selling a lot though so... whatever.. I guess it's fine for that reason.
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Ah the good ol' days
Much "cinematic". Such casual.
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Why do they bother numbering them at this point?
Why not?
Guest_Puddi III_*
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Well, that's fair enough, actually. I agree their arcs weren't valuable to the plot in the same way that Lightning's was, but I do think that in terms of connecting with the others (and I view this as one of the most important parts in any writing-driven media) they were amongst the most essential, and I would therefore judge them to be more valuable. This is just my perspective, though, and we seem to have gotten different impressions. It happens.
And yeah, it can happen with discussions that drag on for more than one page - I've been in quite a few myself, unsurprisingly, lol - so I wanted to make sure it was out there that it wasn't the lack of females that was the sole problem, it was the fact that the cast seems to be very monotonous in general. I like to have a diverse cast, because I find that a diverse cast often brings more diverse personalities and mixes things up a bit, and I'm never a fan of just looking at the same thing over and over. The only reason I tolerated FFX-2 is because I loved Rikku and Yuna already from FFX, and I eventually grew to like Paine as well.
Alright. Helpful to know. Cool.
Well er that just sounds like gibberish to me. The earlier FFs had a greater emphasis on relationships, characters I could actually understand and relate to and all that.
I think that is actually what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game, somehow they extracted the lamest aspect, the sheen of slick and flashy explosions and violence from FF7 and made that the most important thing. It all has been selling a lot though so... whatever.. I guess it's fine for that reason.
XIII seemed like it was pretty good at this. XIII-2 (I just realized that that <-- looks like the alphanumeric form of a mixed metaphor) was stretching it, with Serah pining away about her sister like they were Siamese twins, and the whole Eyes of Etro thing (plus Neol being a Hunter, capital letter compulsory). Then LR kind of drove it out of the ballpark, by Light being a god.
So XIII was alright, but the sequels fell down there. And from the looks of it, XV is returning to this place--not romantic relationships for the most part (at least I don't THINK so, unless Prompto and Gladius have a bromance going on 
), but camaraderie.
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
New news. New videos:
Looking gorgeous, though the video quality is terrible.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Full 1080p apparently:
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