1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Except if they're using blood magic well, they've obviously practiced it. Last I checked the magi origin, mages didn't just suddenly get how to use spells, and Jowan obviously learned it at least through books, if not practicing (which is implied).

Besides, it's not simply a matter of "if mages are attacked, they'll use blood magic". Life is hard, painful, stressful. Life will, by itself, back you against a wall. And then will a mage resist the temptation of using blood magic or demon summoning?
Connor is a good example. He underwent something every will suffer eventually, the loss of a loved one; but whereas a non-mage might cry and move one, Connor summoned a demon, placed his father is stasis and killed dozens of people in the process.

The Chantry separates thousands and thousands of mage children from their parents, and lo and behold... nothing happens.

So yeah.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry separates thousands and thousands of mage children from their parents, and lo and behold... nothing happens.

So yeah.

Nothing happens? I take it you have a complete list of every incident caused by mage kids?
And hey, could it possibly be that the presence of, at the very least, two trained knigths ready to step in if the child does do something help decrease incidents?
Of course not, we all know Templars are useless.

[MWImexico]

HiroVoid wrote...

From World of Thedas quoted from 'sandalisthemaker'.

Here we go. World of Thedas page109:

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

Well that's interesting. Is there a particular context in which this sentence is stated? Is it presented as an absolute truth or as the opinion of someone in-game (like a magister or a chantrist, ...)?

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry separates thousands and thousands of mage children from their parents, and lo and behold... nothing happens.

So yeah.

Nothing happens? I take it you have a complete list of every incident caused by mage kids?
And hey, could it possibly be that the presence of, at the very least, two trained knigths ready to step in if the child does do something help decrease incidents?
Of course not, we all know Templars are useless.

Well every single Templar we meet dumps their problems on the protagonist to solve. All the ones that matter, anyway. Greagoir, Meredith, Cullen, Thrask and Emeric all did it. Just sayin'.

It's at least as valid as "All mages are murderous psychopaths blah de blah de blah".

[Ieldra]

HiroVoid wrote...
Except if they're using blood magic well, they've obviously practiced it. Last I checked the magi origin, mages didn't just suddenly get how to use spells, and Jowan obviously learned it at least through books, if not practicing (which is implied).

(1) Most of the mages in question in DA2 don't use blood magic, they turn abomination when cornered. All that takes is giving control to a demon. It's obviously a last resort for situations where they expect to die.

(2) If they do use blood magic, what of it? Why don't you ask what they used it for before you judge them? Blood magic isn't evil, just dangerous.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry separates thousands and thousands of mage children from their parents, and lo and behold... nothing happens.

So yeah.

Nothing happens? I take it you have a complete list of every incident caused by mage kids?
And hey, could it possibly be that the presence of, at the very least, two trained knigths ready to step in if the child does do something help decrease incidents?
Of course not, we all know Templars are useless.

Well every single Templar we meet dumps their problems on the protagonist to solve. All the ones that matter, anyway. Greagoir, Meredith, Cullen, Thrask and Emeric all did it. Just sayin'.

It's at least as valid as "All mages are murderous psychopaths blah de blah de blah".

not all are murderous psychopats only 3/4

but about templars i will agree.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(1) Most of the mages in question in DA2 don't use blood magic, they turn abomination when cornered. All that takes is giving control to a demon. It's obviously a last resort for situations where they expect to die.

As is plainly visible in these screenshots, during the Annulment, not only were there a great number of blood mages within the Circle, they were even capable of summoning and controling demons; which requires blood magic. I don't believe that all of these mages were capable of mastering these skills in the time took to for the Templars to arrive and attack. The only explanation is that a large part of the Circle's population had been learning blood magic in secret for some time which is corroborated by the fact that the First Enchanter was friends with a powerful blood mage and had smuggled information pertaining said blood mage's rituals into the Circle.

Oh, and if you intend to claim that there is no evidence those demons were summoned by the mages, pay attention to this screenshot.


Here you can see a situation where both the Templars and the demons were hostile to the player and yet, they fought amongst themselves because they belongued to two different factions. Those demons in the first screenshots I posted will not attack the mages which indicates they are on their side.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2013 - 12:24 .

[Ieldra]

I said "most mages". Apart from that, I find it questionable to include gameplay-only events in the endgame as arguments. The endgame is too messed-up. That also applies to the other side, of course, since we see templars kneeling before a desire demon as well, and I don't take that as evidence that there is significant demon-worship among the templars.

Example for a narratively significant example of a mage using demon-summoning: Grace in "Best Served Cold" in Act 3. Narratively significant example of mages turning abomination with no evidence of blood magic: the woman in "First Sacrifice" and the one in a cutscene while walking through Lowtown in the endgame.

[HiroVoid]

Ieldra2 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
Except if they're using blood magic well, they've obviously practiced it. Last I checked the magi origin, mages didn't just suddenly get how to use spells, and Jowan obviously learned it at least through books, if not practicing (which is implied).

(1) Most of the mages in question in DA2 don't use blood magic, they turn abomination when cornered. All that takes is giving control to a demon. It's obviously a last resort for situations where they expect to die.

(2) If they do use blood magic, what of it? Why don't you ask what they used it for before you judge them? Blood magic isn't evil, just dangerous.

I don't consider blood magic to necessarily not be used for bad purposes, but if there are plenty of them using it in the circle or when cornered after being tracked down by templars, it shows they have intentionally broke the law that they know the penalty for as well as how it further stigmacizes the roles of mages in society.

[HiroVoid]

MWImexico wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

From World of Thedas quoted from 'sandalisthemaker'.

Here we go. World of Thedas page109:

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

Well that's interesting. Is there a particular context in which this sentence is stated? Is it presented as an absolute truth or as the opinion of someone in-game (like a magister or a chantrist, ...)?

Can't say.  Heard it from another user and the page on google books isn't available for the sentence.  I can find part of the quote where it states the more violent it is, the better it works, but that's about it.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I said "most mages". Apart from that, I find it questionable to include gameplay-only events in the endgame as arguments. The endgame is too messed-up. That also applies to the other side, of course, since we see templars kneeling before a desire demon as well, and I don't take that as evidence that there is significant demon-worship among the templars.

Templars being allured by Desire Demons, it's nothing outwordly. It happened during the crysis on Ferelden's Circle.
Templars kneeling before a Desire Demon means that they can be susceptible to their allure. Two Pride Demons appearing out of nowhere means the Veil is so torn they were capable of passing through on their own. Circle Mages summoning and controlling demons means they had been studying blood magic for some time; likely with some nefarious plot in mind.

Or would you argue that the presence of elven sympathizers during the Qunari attacks doesn't mean a great number of elves were sympathizing with the qunari over the humans?

The narrative suggests many elves were being enticed by the Qun's promises of equality and the narrative also suggests that a great number of Circle mages were being corrupted.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 novembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[MisterJB]

HiroVoid wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

From World of Thedas quoted from 'sandalisthemaker'.

Here we go. World of Thedas page109:

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

Well that's interesting. Is there a particular context in which this sentence is stated? Is it presented as an absolute truth or as the opinion of someone in-game (like a magister or a chantrist, ...)?

Can't say.  Heard it from another user and the page on google books isn't available for the sentence.  I can find part of the quote where it states the more violent it is, the better it works, but that's about it.

I have a copy of World of Thedas and I just checked that particular page.
The quote in question is not something stated by any person within Thedas. It's a caption placed besides the image of an Abomination.

[Fallstar]

Someone mentioned that summoning demons requires blood magic. This is incorrect. Summoning demons does not require blood magic. Anders deplores blood magic and does not use it, yet still manages to summon a pair of hunger demons. Most likely this is due to his deeper understanding of the fade from his connection with Justice.

It is mana based magic which relies on the strength of the mage's connection to the fade - not blood.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 09 novembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[The Elder King]

DuskWarden wrote...

Someone mentioned that summoning demons requires blood magic. This is incorrect. Summoning demons does not require blood magic. Anders deplores blood magic and does not use it, yet still manages to summon a pair of hunger demons. Most likely this is due to his deeper understanding of the fade from his connection with Justice.

It is mana based magic which relies on the strength of the mage's connection to the fade - not blood.

When did Anders summoned two shades? 

[Fallstar]

hhh89 wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Someone mentioned that summoning demons requires blood magic. This is incorrect. Summoning demons does not require blood magic. Anders deplores blood magic and does not use it, yet still manages to summon a pair of hunger demons. Most likely this is due to his deeper understanding of the fade from his connection with Justice.

It is mana based magic which relies on the strength of the mage's connection to the fade - not blood.

When did Anders summoned two shades? 

He summons two hunger demons in Legacy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders was already an Abominations and therefore his capabilities on the subject matter, is suspect at best. Demonology is a form of blood magic, that much has been established. However, it probably isn't impossible to summon a demon without demonology, you just can't exercise the same amount of control over them.

[The Elder King]

I see. I haven't played Legacy. Thanks for the info.

[MisterJB]

At that point, Anders has lost control and Vengeance doesn't have the stigma against blood magic.
"Codex Entry: Blood Magic: The forbidden school" describes some spells that can only be performed through the use of blood magic; one of these is demon summoning:
Then, the "Scrolls of Banastor" also lump together controlling demons with mind control; which the previous codex also claims is a spell that can't be performed without blood magic.

All of this seems to indicate that it's impossible to summon and control demons without extensive knowledge of blood magic.

[Fallstar]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders was already an Abominations and therefore his capabilities on the subject matter, is suspect at best. Demonology is a form of blood magic, that much has been established. However, it probably isn't impossible to summon a demon without demonology, you just can't exercise the same amount of control over them.

Blood magic is the practice of using blood rather than mana to power spells. If you watch the cutscene, Anders - abomination or no - does not use any blood at all when he casts whatever spell it is. So I do not see how it can be blood magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DuskWarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders was already an Abominations and therefore his capabilities on the subject matter, is suspect at best. Demonology is a form of blood magic, that much has been established. However, it probably isn't impossible to summon a demon without demonology, you just can't exercise the same amount of control over them.

Blood magic is the practice of using blood rather than mana to power spells. If you watch the cutscene, Anders - abomination or no - does not use any blood at all when he casts whatever spell it is. So I do not see how it can be blood magic.

Blood Magic is a school of its own too. I do not presume to know exactly how it works, but we know that Demonology is a part of this school.

Also, Anders was an Abomination. It therefore stands to reason that he has capabiliteis regarding the Fade and its denizens that other mages don't. I'm not saying Anders used Blood Magic. I'm saying Anders used some skill that would be unavailable to a normal mage, since they aren't possessed by corrupted spirits.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 novembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

At that point, Anders has lost control and Vengeance doesn't have the stigma against blood magic.
"Codex Entry: Blood Magic: The forbidden school" describes some spells that can only be performed through the use of blood magic; one of these is demon summoning:
Then, the "Scrolls of Banastor" also lump together controlling demons with mind control; which the previous codex also claims is a spell that can't be performed without blood magic.

All of this seems to indicate that it's impossible to summon and control demons without extensive knowledge of blood magic.

Yes. Those codices and scrolls were written by mages with a knowledge of blood magic.

None of those people had the strength of connection to the fade that Anders + Justice/Vengeance had. As Karl says, it's as if the fade is burning through Anders. Him being able to do things with mana based magic that others thought possible only with blood magic is to be expected.

[Xilizhra]

"Mages who experiment with blood magic are more susceptible to demonic spirits, such as pride demons and risk becoming abominations by way of possession."

Naturally. Blood magic is the main way to summon demons, hence increasing the risk of possession by means of proximity.

Here you can see a situation where both the Templars and the demons were
hostile to the player and yet, they fought amongst themselves because
they belongued to two different factions. Those demons in the first
screenshots I posted will not attack the mages which indicates they are
on their side.

This is not a certain thing. For instance, in Dark Epiphany, there are wild giant spiders and an apostate mage from an enemy camp further north who wind up getting mixed in with the bandits and mabari attacking you for seeing the dead messenger, but they don't attack each other. Also, once, I triggered both the final battle of A Noble Agenda and a Followers of She attack at the same time, and those enemies didn't fight each other either. It's not a matter of different factions, enemies don't have those beyond friend or foe; the templars and demons in that screenshot were specifically flagged to attack each other.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 novembre 2013 - 01:40 .

[MisterJB]

Vengeance never broke any of the Cardinal Rules of Magic.
Idunna was capable of controlling the party's mind without spilling a drop of blood. It seems that not every blood magic spell has to be flashy or obvious.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Perhaps Idunna was on her period............................................... Sorry.....

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Perhaps Idunna was on her period............................................... Sorry.....

You know, that might work. It might even have a different resonance than other blood? I wonder what could be done with that...