1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

Vengeance never broke any of the Cardinal Rules of Magic.
Idunna was capable of controlling the party's mind without spilling a drop of blood. It seems that not every blood magic spell has to be flashy or obvious.

"The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana."

If blood is not used, then it is by definition not blood magic. Idunna either covertly used blood, or did not use blood magic. Most likely the former.

Blood magic spells require blood to power the spell, or a combination of blood and lyrium, but they always require blood. A spell which can be cast without using blood, is not a blood magic spell.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Perhaps Idunna was on her period............................................... Sorry.....

You know, that might work. It might even have a different resonance than other blood? I wonder what could be done with that...

Well I suppose it is flowing blood and that it can be painful, though I doubt it would have any unique qualities to it. Blood is blood after all, no matter where it flows from.

[Xilizhra]

Anyway, in regards to the topic at hand, I have a good feeling about DAI and what it can do with the mage cause, at least looking at the patterns set by previous Bioware games and the narrative direction of the conflict from DA2 and Asunder. Of course, I very much doubt that Asunder will actually have much visible influence on DAI's plot (the only character I think has a chance to show up is Fiona) due to being a book, but it makes me optimistic nonetheless.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well the entire mage-templar war is arguably one big direct influence from Asunder. Most of what happens in the book can happen regardless of previous player choices. So I think that Asunder will play a huge influence on the game, aswell as the upcomming novel.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well the entire mage-templar war is arguably one big direct influence from Asunder. Most of what happens in the book can happen regardless of previous player choices. So I think that Asunder will play a huge influence on the game, aswell as the upcomming novel.

Killing Wynne would throw a lot of the plot into a tailspin. I also don't think that other books have influenced other DA games much. Even the Architect was completely redesigned and had a different goal when introduced.

[The Elder King]

I still have the feeling that war will not be over in this game. I hope to be wrong because while I enjoy this plot (despite the moronic rapresentation of the two factions in DA2), I'd like to explore other plots.

[Xilizhra]

The war will almost certainly not be conventionally over, unless the mages win.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

The war will almost certainly not be conventionally over, unless the mages win.

What do you mean with conventionally? That if the mages return in the circles in DAI, the war will start again, or something else?

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The war will almost certainly not be conventionally over, unless the mages win.

What do you mean with conventionally? That if the mages return in the circles in DAI, the war will start again, or something else?

I mean that something else will happen to permanently interrupt the conflict and bring it out of the limelight for the fourth game.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The war will almost certainly not be conventionally over, unless the mages win.

What do you mean with conventionally? That if the mages return in the circles in DAI, the war will start again, or something else?

I mean that something else will happen to permanently interrupt the conflict and bring it out of the limelight for the fourth game.

Like a Qunari invasion.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote....
I mean that something else will happen to permanently interrupt the conflict and bring it out of the limelight for the fourth game.

Understood. A qunari invasion (as dragonflight288 said) would be a likely justification to interrupt the conflict, expecially given the weakened state of southern Thedas.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Where is the false logic?  The Tevinter Imperium has been ruled by mages for hundreds of years.  If the magisters were greatly succeptible to demonic possession, there's no way that their nation wouldn't erupt into chaos. 

And that is false.
Nations have survived horrible disasters in the past. Humanity is anything but not ressilient.

Furthermore, the ability to tell whether a mage is possessed is dependent on the power of the demon.  Pride and desire demons are more likely to be able and willing to maintain this facade, whereas sloth and rage demons are far less so... and if the archons and magister lords are routinely possessed by pride demons but cause no harm to the people, what difference does it make anyway?

Kinda the same difference a virus with a incubation period of 1 day and a virus with a incubation period of 1 year make. Spreading of corruption.

The majority of our knowledge of demonology is filtered through the Chantry's ban on research, so how can you be so certain of what is and is not possible?  Especially in light of an advanced nation, ruled by mages, which is not inherently chaotic.  Keep in mind that they have been at war with the Qunari for 300 years, and even so they have maintained much of their political, economic, and military might.  This would not be possible if they also had to contend with frequent outbreaks of abominations.

Sez who?
Tevinter has Circles and (more crappy) templars.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Where is the false logic?  The Tevinter Imperium has been ruled by mages for hundreds of years.  If the magisters were greatly succeptible to demonic possession, there's no way that their nation wouldn't erupt into chaos. 

And that is false.
Nations have survived horrible disasters in the past. Humanity is anything but not ressilient.

Furthermore, the ability to tell whether a mage is possessed is dependent on the power of the demon.  Pride and desire demons are more likely to be able and willing to maintain this facade, whereas sloth and rage demons are far less so... and if the archons and magister lords are routinely possessed by pride demons but cause no harm to the people, what difference does it make anyway?

Kinda the same difference a virus with a incubation period of 1 day and a virus with a incubation period of 1 year make. Spreading of corruption.

The majority of our knowledge of demonology is filtered through the Chantry's ban on research, so how can you be so certain of what is and is not possible?  Especially in light of an advanced nation, ruled by mages, which is not inherently chaotic.  Keep in mind that they have been at war with the Qunari for 300 years, and even so they have maintained much of their political, economic, and military might.  This would not be possible if they also had to contend with frequent outbreaks of abominations.

Sez who?
Tevinter has Circles and (more crappy) templars.

Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into
abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

[Inprea]

DKJaigen wrote...

Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into
abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

Don't forget the Imperium also suffered a famine though the barbarians claimed it was the work of the maker and their profit. That darkspawn invasion also included the loss of their old gods, the leadership that went to the black city and the resources used to make it happen.

Considering everything that Tevinter had gone through I consider it impressive that even in their surrender it was on their terms.

The fact that Tevinter has endured so well is one thing that gives me hope that the mages will rise again. At least it would if I didn't doubt Bioware wanting to take things that way. I can't say for certain but I suspect that their biggest issue is in fighting amongst various groups trying to claim power similar to what you see in the Star Wars sith empire. What they need is a leader with the vision, power and drive to unite them under a common cause. That or a council with the same three traits.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The war will almost certainly not be conventionally over, unless the mages win.

What do you mean with conventionally? That if the mages return in the circles in DAI, the war will start again, or something else?

I mean that something else will happen to permanently interrupt the conflict and bring it out of the limelight for the fourth game.

Then there's nothing preventing a Templar win.  If the Templars defeat the current rebellion, but an outside force prevents them from immediately focusing on implementing their new circle system, they still won the war. 

Of course, in either case BSN will just complain that their choices don't matter.

[Icy Magebane]

@Lotion Sorronar - Okay.  So you are saying that Tevinter has been plagued by abominations for centuries, yet history conveniently forgot to record any of these events?  You believe that a nation can be successfully ruled by a segment of the population that frequently falls prey to demonic possession, and that those demons are somehow unique in that they do not attempt to create more abominations... OR that they do create more abominations so that every few years or decades, the nation wastes more soldiers and resources on internal conflict, while simultaneously fending off mutiple exhalted marches and engaging in a 3 centuries war with technologically advanced giants...   With all that going on, they manage to maintain their military and economic power, and the commoners consider magic to be a gift?

Honestly, I think you're just dead set in your opinions, because none of that seems logical in any way.  A nation under this much stress would either fall, or the mages who rule it would be overthrown because they would be causing way too much damage to society...   I maintain that the Tevinter Imperium is proof that mages can be properly trained to remain free of demonic influence.  Fereldens and Orlesians might see this as impossible, but only because the Chantry conveniently outlaws certain areas of magical research.  If you just look carefully at the situation, however, it's clear that mages, with proper training, are not nearly as unstable as the Orlesian Chantry would have us believe.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 09 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well the entire mage-templar war is arguably one big direct influence from Asunder. Most of what happens in the book can happen regardless of previous player choices. So I think that Asunder will play a huge influence on the game, aswell as the upcomming novel.

Killing Wynne would throw a lot of the plot into a tailspin. I also don't think that other books have influenced other DA games much. Even the Architect was completely redesigned and had a different goal when introduced.

Killing Wynne would certainly change the events in a significant way, but not so much that the events never transpired. It might simply be that Rhys, who was a known spirit healer, was contacted by a spirit of faith, which he then used to save Evangeline, and then pretty much the rest of the book can happen without Wynne.
Same as eecuting Alistair doesn't mean the events of the comics enver happened, since Alistair and Loghain are pretty much interchangable. Only when both of them are dead are we presented with a problem (though I suppose if you stretch it Teagan or another Fereldan noble can play the role).

[TheKomandorShepard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well the entire mage-templar war is arguably one big direct influence from Asunder. Most of what happens in the book can happen regardless of previous player choices. So I think that Asunder will play a huge influence on the game, aswell as the upcomming novel.

Killing Wynne would throw a lot of the plot into a tailspin. I also don't think that other books have influenced other DA games much. Even the Architect was completely redesigned and had a different goal when introduced.

Killing Wynne would certainly change the events in a significant way, but not so much that the events never transpired. It might simply be that Rhys, who was a known spirit healer, was contacted by a spirit of faith, which he then used to save Evangeline, and then pretty much the rest of the book can happen without Wynne.
Same as eecuting Alistair doesn't mean the events of the comics enver happened, since Alistair and Loghain are pretty much interchangable. Only when both of them are dead are we presented with a problem (though I suppose if you stretch it Teagan or another Fereldan noble can play the role).

Sounds ridiculous like that thing with Anders even when he is probably dead , given to templars or leave and in every fate he ends possesed by justice who can stay with grey wardens , go away and back to the fade.CB with alistair was already ridiculous isabela , alistair and varric i mean come on don't we already have enough connection between old and new characters.And it all feels meaningless no matter what we do it always end that same like you have decision blow up orlais or not and when you blow up i next game wizard casted spell and restored orlais and everything take route like when you didn't do that.   

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into
abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

The Chantry nation have not collapsed on its own weight anymore than Tevinter. Before the Darkspawn and Andraste's rebellion, the Imperium was weakened by a civil war between the two most premonient magisters over the throne of Archon which is not so different from Justinia and Gaspard's struggle for the orlesian throne.

The Tevinter Imperium may have built roads and fortresses but so have the Andrastian nations. The only thing the tevinters created that humans from other nations have not matched was the darkspawn.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into
abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

The Chantry nation have not collapsed on its own weight anymore than Tevinter. Before the Darkspawn and Andraste's rebellion, the Imperium was weakened by a civil war between the two most premonient magisters over the throne of Archon which is not so different from Justinia and Gaspard's struggle for the orlesian throne.

The Tevinter Imperium may have built roads and fortresses but so have the Andrastian nations. The only thing the tevinters created that humans from other nations have not matched was the darkspawn.

Name a country that hasnt been plagued by civil war. Even america which is a relatively young country has sufferd a civil war. you can expect a nation that has existed for 2000 years not to suffer at least one civil war. And yes the current states do indeed have their own achievements. But its still not as grand what the tevinter imperium managed to create. Their primary accomplishment is that they dragged humanity out of barbarism and in a more civilised state.

Furthermore every powerful magical tool you find in DAO and DA2 has the label : made in tevinter on it. Also the current nations have a problem maintaining the imperial road indicationg they have yet achieved the level of engineering the tevinters had

The tevinters are also not reponsible for the darkspawn. The black city is. We do not know what happend their and its in the wardens best interrest to find out what occured their so something like that cannot be repeated. You can say contain or kill all mages but who says that whatever is within the black city doesnt have a mind of its own.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into  abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

I can't?
Just watch me.

Icy Magebane wrote..

Okay.  So you are saying that Tevinter has been plagued by abominations
for centuries, yet history conveniently forgot to record any of these
events?  You believe that a nation can be successfully ruled by a
segment of the population that frequently falls prey to demonic
possession, and that those demons are somehow unique in that they do not
attempt to create more abominations... OR that they do create
more abominations so that every few years or decades, the nation wastes
more soldiers and resources on internal conflict, while simultaneously
fending off mutiple exhalted marches and engaging in a 3 centuries war
with technologically advanced giants...   With all that going on, they
manage to maintain their military and economic power, and the commoners consider magic to be a gift?

I am saying that just as nations survive tsunamis, hurrucanes, floods, earthquakes and every other disaster or war immaginable, so they survive abominations.
Tevinter has circles, so most abomination would be dealt with like they are dealt in other Andrastain nations - only probably more costly since Tevinter templars rarely have any abilities.
Since Tevinter is a mageocracy, any magister that does fall prey to a demon would find himself attacked by all of his collegues, given the vicious nature of tevinter politics. and loss of life? Ha, life is cheap in Tevinter.

So yes, a magister occasionaly becoming an abomination is something that Tevinter could very well survive.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into  abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

I can't?
Just watch me.

Why do you deny it though? The Tevinters have held out against pretty much everything but the Darkspawn and the Qunari. Regardless of what you think about their magocracy, they still remain pretty much the strongest nation in Thedas, except for the Qunari because they have withstood so much. And yes, Orlais is collapsing at the moment due to Celene and Gaspard, plus all of the corruption in the Orlesian nobility. Not to say that it cannot be fixed, but it is hardly doing well these days.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Whatever you misgivings are lotion you cannot deny that the mages of the tevinter imperium has ruled succesfully to this point . and has advanced humanity on the cultrural social magical and even technological level that has not been since. this cannot happen if your most important leaders turn into  abominations. The tevinter imperium only socially collapsed because of the 2 hammer blows of the darkspawn and the barbarian invasion. Yet the chantry nations have collapsed on its own weight.

I can't?
Just watch me.

Why do you deny it though? The Tevinters have held out against pretty much everything but the Darkspawn and the Qunari. Regardless of what you think about their magocracy, they still remain pretty much the strongest nation in Thedas, except for the Qunari because they have withstood so much. And yes, Orlais is collapsing at the moment due to Celene and Gaspard, plus all of the corruption in the Orlesian nobility. Not to say that it cannot be fixed, but it is hardly doing well these days.

Because he is like xil just pro-templar he will denay everything that support pro-mage point i told him once that mages are capable creating society he responded "AHAHAHAHA" then i pointed him tevinter.

[Heimdall]

This thread has articulated why I think DA4 will take place in Tevinter.

1) Qunari invasion 2) It gives the developers an excuse to leave the effects of DAI choices at arm's length as far as the Mage-Templar war and the political state of Southern Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

This thread has articulated why I think DA4 will take place in Tevinter.

1) Qunari invasion 2) It gives the developers an excuse to leave the effects of DAI choices at arm's length as far as the Mage-Templar war and the political state of Southern Thedas.

Stop killing my dreams
I wanna see Minrathous in DAI!!!