1113 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

Orsino was too busy learning how to become a Harvester.

[Hellion Rex]

durasteel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Or Meredith's paranoia helped to cause enough problems that Orsino could not even handle it.

I think it was Orsino's place to be involved in the efforts to remove Meredith from her position. Instead, Thrask had to deal with a nut-case like Grace, while Orsino wrung his hands and looked helpless.

Anything he did against her would only make her crack down harder.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith behavior didn't really change until act 3.

Not true. And she got the idol in Act II as well.

She was using normal sword at the end of Act II though.

She still had the idol though, and Bartrand was compleltely lost to its influence within seconds of seeing it.

[TK514]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Or Meredith's paranoia helped to cause enough problems that Orsino could not even handle it.

Can't we just agree that neither were best suited to their jobs, and lyrium idol tomfoolery didn't help?

Lets all just get along!

I'll definitely agree that both were, at the very least, incompetent for their positions.

[Heimdall]

durasteel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Or Meredith's paranoia helped to cause enough problems that Orsino could not even handle it.

I think it was Orsino's place to be involved in the efforts to remove Meredith from her position. Instead, Thrask had to deal with a nut-case like Grace, while Orsino wrung his hands and looked helpless.

Well be fair, he did go up to High Town and attempt to incite the nobility to depose her.  He might have thought she'd be easier to deal with if an ally (Probably more Anti-Templar than Pro-Mage) held the Viscount's seat.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith behavior didn't really change until act 3.

Meredith's behavior didn't even change in Act 3 until the very precipice of the final battle.

[Lord Raijin]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Or Meredith's paranoia helped to cause enough problems that Orsino could not even handle it.

Can't we just agree that neither were best suited to their jobs, and lyrium idol tomfoolery didn't help?

Lets all just get along!

If I had the option to give my mansion to Meredith and Orsino for a few nights in the private, I would.



They desperately needed some hate raw sex.

I wish Bioware could redo Dragon Age 2 and give us more peaceful options to take, like trying to get these two together, and potentially making them as a couple.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

She still had the idol though, and Bartrand was compleltely lost to its influence within seconds of seeing it.

True, but maybe that's a Dwarven thing?  It'd be total flip from normal lyrium, but only Varric was ever affected by it instantly to that extent.  Maybe it takes longer to affect humans.  Just speculating.

[Heimdall]

Lord Raijin wrote...

If I had the option to give my mansion to Meredith and Orsino for a few nights in the private, I would.

*snip*

They desperately needed some hate raw sex.

I wish Bioware could redo Dragon Age 2 and give us more peaceful options to take, like trying to get these two together, and potentially making them as a couple.

Why must you put such images in my mind? 

[durasteel]

Eber wrote...
Would you still feel that way if demons taking over mages was much more common and abominations were much more potent? If any one abomination left to acquaint itself with the mundane world could threaten all life in it? Do you belive in those principles to a point where you would let a world burn for them or do you just advocate them in the Dragon Age universe where their implementation works out more or less perfectly fine?

If every mage posed a risk of doom for all of Thedas, then Thedas would have long since perished. It never has been, and never will be possible to control, corral, leash, or lobotomise every mage within the Chantry's territory, much less within the world at large.

The situation is hardly as dire as some would insist, though. A group of blood mages do not pose a significantly greater threat than a pack of carta assassins, or a cell of Antivan Crows, or a Qunari war band, or a nest of dragon whelps. Thedas is a dangerous place.

I'll tell you this for sure: if a member of my family was an apostate who had been trained to control her power, like Bethany, I would be more afraid of the Templar Gestapo than I would be of her becoming an abomination.

[Lord Raijin]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Why must you put such images in my mind? 

I think it would be a wonderful romantic story. I would pay to read something like that... or perhabs a comic

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Why must you put such images in my mind? 

I think it would be a wonderful romantic story. I would pay to read something like that... or perhabs a comic

No more gifs please. They are getting a little annoying.

[Bardox9]

I would suggest that Meredith and Orsino were a couple once and had a bad, really really bad, break up. Would explain alot of the tension between those two. Anyone that has been through a bad break up understands the need to... "annul" their ex.

[Lord Raijin]

Bardox9 wrote...

I would suggest that Meredith and Orsino were a couple once and had a bad, really really bad, break up. Would explain alot of the tension between those two. Anyone that has been through a bad break up understands the need to... "annul" their ex.

I would think Meredith would make Orsino tranquil after a bad breakup, or wanted to but was interupted by Elthina telling her not to during their little "girl" talk. She seems like the kind of person to do that kind of thing.

[Eber]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Eber wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

While I understand your point, I do not feel that it's right to treat mages, or anyone else, like criminals before they've committed a crime.  The thing I will agree on is that mages have the potential to become more threatening/destructive to society than any normal person.  This does not, however, give normal people the right to imprison them or take away their freedom to choose whether to be good or evil.

Would you still feel that way if demons taking over mages was much more common and abominations were much more potent? If any one abomination left to acquaint itself with the mundane world could threaten all life in it? Do you belive in those principles to a point where you would let a world burn for them or do you just advocate them in the Dragon Age universe where their implementation works out more or less perfectly fine?

If demonic possession was easier, and even people like Irving were at very high risk, then no, they'd need to stay in the Circles and things would have to be pretty much the same as they are right now (but with some kind of third party monitoring the Templars so they don't become abusive).  However, that is not the case, and as such, mages should be allowed the same basic freedoms as any other individuals, with certain limitations, such as training, providing phylacteries, regular meetings with some group (not necessarily Templars) to ensure they are on the straight and narrow, etc.

I do not advocate complete, unrestricted freedom for mages.  I am only saying that they should be treated as people and given a fair chance.  In the DA universe, mages are not guaranteed to become possessed and are not inherently more likely to cause harm to others (meaning: magic itself doesn't alter their minds in a negative way).

Well then you agree that humans have no sacrosanct right to not be locked up in Circles and that mages being or not being free is not a matter of obvious human rights but a demarcation problem. It stands to reason that Bioware set out to design THEDAS so that people could and would land on both sides of the fence and to some extent they succeeded.

[Icy Magebane]

Eber wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

If demonic possession was easier, and even people like Irving were at very high risk, then no, they'd need to stay in the Circles and things would have to be pretty much the same as they are right now (but with some kind of third party monitoring the Templars so they don't become abusive).  However, that is not the case, and as such, mages should be allowed the same basic freedoms as any other individuals, with certain limitations, such as training, providing phylacteries, regular meetings with some group (not necessarily Templars) to ensure they are on the straight and narrow, etc.

I do not advocate complete, unrestricted freedom for mages.  I am only saying that they should be treated as people and given a fair chance.  In the DA universe, mages are not guaranteed to become possessed and are not inherently more likely to cause harm to others (meaning: magic itself doesn't alter their minds in a negative way).

Well then you agree that humans have no sacrosanct right to not be locked up in Circles and that mages being or not being free is not a matter of obvious human rights but a demarcation problem. It stands to reason that Bioware set out to design THEDAS so that people could and would land on both sides of the fence and to some extent they succeeded.

So what are you saying, then?  That they didn't make abominations and demons as dire a threat as they should have?  Because from what I've observed, most of the problems surrounding mages have been blown all out of proportion.  Throughout history, Thedas has seen many examples of free mages who a) did not surrender to demonic possession, and did not use their abilities to cause harm.  Given that they are not intrinsically dangerous, they indeed have a sacrosanct right to their freedom, within reasonable limits.  I don't believe that mages would be resentful of having to turn in a phylactery or sitting down with some authoritative group dedicated to monitoring them every few months to make sure nothing is amiss.  Maleficarum might, but you have criminals in normal society too... mage or not, you relinquish most of your rights when you decide to break the law.

In your hypothetical situation, things are far more dire than they are in the games, thus, the current Circle system would be appropriate.  However, given that properly trained mages are capable of living normal lives, the current level of scrutiny and banning them from living normal lives is unjustified.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[Eber]

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what are you saying, then?  That they didn't make abominations and demons as dire a threat as they should have?

Yes I think abominations in particular should be a more dire threat. But that's a matter of opinion in the templar thread they seem plenty scared already.

[TK514]

Let me just preface this post with the statement that I am not a proponent of indiscriminate execution. Execution of any stripe should be a last option when all others have been exhausted.

But I think people are looking at the ROA as executing the innocent along with the guilty, when what it is actually doing is purging the healthy along with the infected. Demonic possession can very easily be compared to an extremely hardy and virulent disease with no reliable cures, and no cures at all for large populations. On top of that, there's no reliable way to detect possession if the demon chooses not to be overt. Gregoire was actually taking a huge risk by trusting Irving in Ferelden.

The only other option is to completely seal the Circle, effectively forever since demons can possess corpses, and eradicate anything that tries to leave, dooming everyone within to death by deprivation at the very best. Which, as pointed out, doesn't exactly stop the spread of possession.

So the choices on dealing with a compromised Circle are ultimately all bad. Go in immediately and kill the infection early, unfortunately getting the uninflected along with the demons, or wait until everyone has already been tortured to death or possession and kill them all later.

I'm not saying that putting a bunch of bait in one spot and hoping nothing bites is the best way to prevent a large scale outbreak, but it, in theory, makes such outbreaks easier to control than random abominations in the wild, and only puts Mages and Templars at risk, rather than the general populace.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Let me just preface this post with the statement that I am not a proponent of indiscriminate execution. Execution of any stripe should be a last option when all others have been exhausted.

But I think people are looking at the ROA as executing the innocent along with the guilty, when what it is actually doing is purging the healthy along with the infected. Demonic possession can very easily be compared to an extremely hardy and virulent disease with no reliable cures, and no cures at all for large populations. On top of that, there's no reliable way to detect possession if the demon chooses not to be overt. Gregoire was actually taking a huge risk by trusting Irving in Ferelden.

The only other option is to completely seal the Circle, effectively forever since demons can possess corpses, and eradicate anything that tries to leave, dooming everyone within to death by deprivation at the very best. Which, as pointed out, doesn't exactly stop the spread of possession.

So the choices on dealing with a compromised Circle are ultimately all bad. Go in immediately and kill the infection early, unfortunately getting the uninflected along with the demons, or wait until everyone has already been tortured to death or possession and kill them all later.

I'm not saying that putting a bunch of bait in one spot and hoping nothing bites is the best way to prevent a large scale outbreak, but it, in theory, makes such outbreaks easier to control than random abominations in the wild, and only puts Mages and Templars at risk, rather than the general populace.

How exactly is the bolded different than executing the innocent along with the guilty?

[Icy Magebane]

Eber wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

So what are you saying, then?  That they didn't make abominations and demons as dire a threat as they should have?

Yes I think abominations in particular should be a more dire threat. But that's a matter of opinion in the templar thread they seem plenty scared already.

Well, in the lore, I've heard of a single abomination wiping out a full squad of Templars.  Another (might have been the same one) took a full year to finally kill... so yeah, you have a good point.  They should have been much stronger in the game, to the point that even on casual, the Broken Circle quest would have been incredibly challenging.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:27 .

[Bardox9]

The ideal scenario for mages IMO is that when their powers begin to manifest the get sent off to the Circle to master their powers and train them to resist the influence of them demons they will attract. After they complete their Harrowing, allow they the option of moving out of the Circle to any town or city near a Chantry and/or Templar barracks OR stay within the Circle to live among their own, study the depths of magic, or train aprrentices.

But Thedas is hardly an ideal world. Power corrupts. This is a universal truth, Mage or not.

[Fredward]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Why must you put such images in my mind? 

I think it would be a wonderful romantic story. I would pay to read something like that... or perhabs a comic

THE WRINKLES! OH GOD THE WRINKLES!

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Let me just preface this post with the statement that I am not a proponent of indiscriminate execution. Execution of any stripe should be a last option when all others have been exhausted.

But I think people are looking at the ROA as executing the innocent along with the guilty, when what it is actually doing is purging the healthy along with the infected. Demonic possession can very easily be compared to an extremely hardy and virulent disease with no reliable cures, and no cures at all for large populations. On top of that, there's no reliable way to detect possession if the demon chooses not to be overt. Gregoire was actually taking a huge risk by trusting Irving in Ferelden.

The only other option is to completely seal the Circle, effectively forever since demons can possess corpses, and eradicate anything that tries to leave, dooming everyone within to death by deprivation at the very best. Which, as pointed out, doesn't exactly stop the spread of possession.

So the choices on dealing with a compromised Circle are ultimately all bad. Go in immediately and kill the infection early, unfortunately getting the uninflected along with the demons, or wait until everyone has already been tortured to death or possession and kill them all later.

I'm not saying that putting a bunch of bait in one spot and hoping nothing bites is the best way to prevent a large scale outbreak, but it, in theory, makes such outbreaks easier to control than random abominations in the wild, and only puts Mages and Templars at risk, rather than the general populace.

How exactly is the bolded different than executing the innocent along with the guilty?

It's a different way to look at it. It changes the moral basis of the argument and allows for the fact that it doesn't need a single mage guilty of anything for a Circle to be compromised. All it needs is one mage being emotionally unstable enough to lose control to a demon. If that demon is powerful enough, it can force others to become possessed as well etc. etc.. 

Perhaps this would be an acceptable setup if abomination outbreaks of non-Circle mages were comparably frequent. But they aren't. In fact, in Tevinter, while there are still Circles, there are mages walking the streets freely and while we hear of a lot of events in Tevinter, abomination outbreaks appear to be so rare that we don't hear of any. I stand by what I wrote in my mage manifesto: political expediency, shrouding things in religious metaphor and the ban on blood magic conspire to make Circle mages more vulnerable to possession than they'd need to be. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Let me just preface this post with the statement that I am not a proponent of indiscriminate execution. Execution of any stripe should be a last option when all others have been exhausted.

But I think people are looking at the ROA as executing the innocent along with the guilty, when what it is actually doing is purging the healthy along with the infected. Demonic possession can very easily be compared to an extremely hardy and virulent disease with no reliable cures, and no cures at all for large populations. On top of that, there's no reliable way to detect possession if the demon chooses not to be overt. Gregoire was actually taking a huge risk by trusting Irving in Ferelden.

The only other option is to completely seal the Circle, effectively forever since demons can possess corpses, and eradicate anything that tries to leave, dooming everyone within to death by deprivation at the very best. Which, as pointed out, doesn't exactly stop the spread of possession.

So the choices on dealing with a compromised Circle are ultimately all bad. Go in immediately and kill the infection early, unfortunately getting the uninflected along with the demons, or wait until everyone has already been tortured to death or possession and kill them all later.

I'm not saying that putting a bunch of bait in one spot and hoping nothing bites is the best way to prevent a large scale outbreak, but it, in theory, makes such outbreaks easier to control than random abominations in the wild, and only puts Mages and Templars at risk, rather than the general populace.

How exactly is the bolded different than executing the innocent along with the guilty?

In life hardly only guilty die or are punished life is brutal so i don't understand why you have problem with that.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Meredith behavior didn't really change until act 3.

Not true. And she got the idol in Act II as well.

She was using normal sword at the end of Act II though.

Best guess?  She just got the Red Lyrium near the end of Act II and was having it reworked into a sword.  I am guessing that researching and doing this is not an instantaneous process.

-Polaris