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#376
EmperorSahlertz

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Ieldra2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Let me just preface this post with the statement that I am not a proponent of indiscriminate execution. Execution of any stripe should be a last option when all others have been exhausted.

But I think people are looking at the ROA as executing the innocent along with the guilty, when what it is actually doing is purging the healthy along with the infected. Demonic possession can very easily be compared to an extremely hardy and virulent disease with no reliable cures, and no cures at all for large populations. On top of that, there's no reliable way to detect possession if the demon chooses not to be overt. Gregoire was actually taking a huge risk by trusting Irving in Ferelden.

The only other option is to completely seal the Circle, effectively forever since demons can possess corpses, and eradicate anything that tries to leave, dooming everyone within to death by deprivation at the very best. Which, as pointed out, doesn't exactly stop the spread of possession.

So the choices on dealing with a compromised Circle are ultimately all bad. Go in immediately and kill the infection early, unfortunately getting the uninflected along with the demons, or wait until everyone has already been tortured to death or possession and kill them all later.

I'm not saying that putting a bunch of bait in one spot and hoping nothing bites is the best way to prevent a large scale outbreak, but it, in theory, makes such outbreaks easier to control than random abominations in the wild, and only puts Mages and Templars at risk, rather than the general populace.

How exactly is the bolded different than executing the innocent along with the guilty?

It's a different way to look at it. It changes the moral basis of the argument and allows for the fact that it doesn't need a single mage guilty of anything for a Circle to be compromised. All it needs is one mage being emotionally unstable enough to lose control to a demon. If that demon is powerful enough, it can force others to become possessed as well etc. etc.. 

Perhaps this would be an acceptable setup if abomination outbreaks of non-Circle mages were comparably frequent. But they aren't. In fact, in Tevinter, while there are still Circles, there are mages walking the streets freely and while we hear of a lot of events in Tevinter, abomination outbreaks appear to be so rare that we don't hear of any. I stand by what I wrote in my mage manifesto: political expediency, shrouding things in religious metaphor and the ban on blood magic conspire to make Circle mages more vulnerable to possession than they'd need to be. 

I doubt a single Abomination would be grounds for an Annulment. Failure to contain an Abomination might quickly escalate though, to warrant the Annulment. A demonic infestation can grow rapidly, as we saw in Ferelden.

Abominaions happen in Tevinter. Fenris talks about having faced powerful Abominations (plural), so obviously they are not as rare as some would like them to be. Most probably Tevinter has no interrest in publicing any case of Abomination outbreak at all, or they just don't care, since it would be seen as a weakness being purged. Tevinter doesn't care for weakness. And still, most mages in Tevinter are also confiend to the Circles, so the rate of Abomination outbreaks otside of the Circle shouldn't be all that much bigger than in the rest of Thedas.

#377
Bardox9

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William Burroughs once said "Paranoia is simply knowing the truth." Meredith may have been a mad bleeding nug tail at the end, but the evil she saw in the shadows WAS there. The idol didn't put the demons, abominations, or corrupt mages in Kirkwall. It did push her beyond all reason in Act 3 resulting in the hugely excessive use of the RoA. Overkill is putting it mildly. Not to mention filling the Templar ranks with bigots and sadists didn't help matters.

There was a corruption problem within the Circle. Had Orsino been even partially equipted to handle being First Enchanter, that would have been easily managed. Restictions on the mages wouldn't have been tightened so much, fewer mages would have fallen prey to demons, and Anders might not have gone off the deep end. Idol or no Idol, the source of this whole mess is, was, and shall forever be Orsino. Every innocent mage that died in the Gallows and every soul lost in the resulting war is his fault.

#378
RobRam10

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Or Meredith's paranoia helped to cause enough problems that Orsino could not even handle it.

Can't we just agree that neither were best suited to their jobs, and lyrium idol tomfoolery didn't help?

Lets all just get along!:o


If I had the option to give my mansion to Meredith and Orsino for a few nights in the private, I would.

Image IPB

They desperately needed some hate raw sex.


Image IPB

#379
TheKomandorShepard

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Bardox9 wrote...

William Burroughs once said "Paranoia is simply knowing the truth." Meredith may have been a mad bleeding nug tail at the end, but the evil she saw in the shadows WAS there. The idol didn't put the demons, abominations, or corrupt mages in Kirkwall. It did push her beyond all reason in Act 3 resulting in the hugely excessive use of the RoA. Overkill is putting it mildly. Not to mention filling the Templar ranks with bigots and sadists didn't help matters.

There was a corruption problem within the Circle. Had Orsino been even partially equipted to handle being First Enchanter, that would have been easily managed. Restictions on the mages wouldn't have been tightened so much, fewer mages would have fallen prey to demons, and Anders might not have gone off the deep end. Idol or no Idol, the source of this whole mess is, was, and shall forever be Orsino. Every innocent mage that died in the Gallows and every soul lost in the resulting war is his fault.


It was orsino who forced mages to become abomnations is that orsino who forced them into being psycho? No everyone was guilty mages for power hungry and isnane attitude and templars for going dunk with ther absolute power and fanaticism and thats what will happen if one side win.  

#380
Xilizhra

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There was a corruption problem within the Circle. Had Orsino been even partially equipted to handle being First Enchanter, that would have been easily managed. Restictions on the mages wouldn't have been tightened so much, fewer mages would have fallen prey to demons, and Anders might not have gone off the deep end. Idol or no Idol, the source of this whole mess is, was, and shall forever be Orsino. Every innocent mage that died in the Gallows and every soul lost in the resulting war is his fault.

Sadly, no. At least, we don't have nearly enough information to condemn Orsino in that manner, only to know that Meredith was a vicious tyrant.

#381
EmperorSahlertz

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We have more than enough evidence to condemn Orsino for his actions..
Though I don't agree that it is all on him, he is certainly partially to blame for the whole mess.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 novembre 2013 - 01:05 .


#382
Xilizhra

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We have more than enough evidence to condemn Orsino for his actions..
Though I don't agree that it is all on him, he is certainly partially to blame for the whole mess.

Insofar as he was unable to stop Meredith, yes, but it's rather difficult to blame anyone for that in particular.

So in regards to the wider plan, I do wonder what'll happen at the end of Inquisition. It seems somewhat unlikely that everyone would become a mage, but it'd be fascinating if true.

#383
The Elder King

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I'd say it'd highly unlikely that everyone will become a mage. If bioware will ever do that in this franchise, it'd be for changing drastically it, both lore wise and gameplay wise. I doubt they'd do that at this point.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 novembre 2013 - 01:29 .


#384
Xilizhra

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hhh89 wrote...

I'd say it'd highly unlikely that everyone will become a mage. If bioware will ever do that in this franchise, it'd be for changing drastically it, both lore wise and gameplay wise. I doubt they'd do that at this point.

Perhaps, but it'd solve this argument forever.

#385
The Elder King

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Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'd say it'd highly unlikely that everyone will become a mage. If bioware will ever do that in this franchise, it'd be for changing drastically it, both lore wise and gameplay wise. I doubt they'd do that at this point.

Perhaps, but it'd solve this argument forever.


The only thing sure is that it'll create a lot of negative reactions, and not necessarily from pro-templars only. I'd personally be against it at this point. I want to experience Thedas as it is now for other games.
Beside, you're assuming that Bioware want to solve this conflict soon, or even solve it at all. 

#386
EmperorSahlertz

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Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We have more than enough evidence to condemn Orsino for his actions..
Though I don't agree that it is all on him, he is certainly partially to blame for the whole mess.

Insofar as he was unable to stop Meredith, yes, but it's rather difficult to blame anyone for that in particular.

So in regards to the wider plan, I do wonder what'll happen at the end of Inquisition. It seems somewhat unlikely that everyone would become a mage, but it'd be fascinating if true.

It was not Orsino's job to stop Meredith, it was his job to control the Circle which he failed miserably at. THAT is why he is partially to blame... Oh and he was a dirty Blood Mage who associated with a mass murderer..

Xilizhra wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'd say it'd highly unlikely that everyone will become a mage. If bioware will ever do that in this franchise, it'd be for changing drastically it, both lore wise and gameplay wise. I doubt they'd do that at this point.

Perhaps, but it'd solve this argument forever.

The issue is not supposed to be solved. Ever. Since it is an integral part of the DA universe. The solving of the issue would result in a lessening of the universe itself. Kinda of how the Jedi vs. Sith issue will never be solved in the Star Wars universe.

#387
TheKomandorShepard

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The issue is not supposed to be solved. Ever. Since it is an integral part of the DA universe. The solving of the issue would result in a lessening of the universe itself. Kinda of how the Jedi vs. Sith issue will never be solved in the Star Wars universe.


I disagree issue can be solved and it is simple but i said my solution already and it should be possible to do that in game not just be pro-templar or mage. 

#388
Xilizhra

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It was not Orsino's job to stop Meredith, it was his job to control the Circle which he failed miserably at. THAT is why he is partially to blame... Oh and he was a dirty Blood Mage who associated with a mass murderer..

The latter was to avoid Annulment, the former... well, when the Annulment came around, I daresay it was worth it if enough mages had enough tricks up their sleeves to survive the templar onslaught.

The issue is not supposed to be solved. Ever. Since it is an integral part of the DA universe. The solving of the issue would result in a lessening of the universe itself. Kinda of how the Jedi vs. Sith issue will never be solved in the Star Wars universe.

It's an integral part of the DA universe... for now. But the Dragon Age is supposed to bring about great change.

#389
EmperorSahlertz

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The issue is not supposed to be solved. Ever. Since it is an integral part of the DA universe. The solving of the issue would result in a lessening of the universe itself. Kinda of how the Jedi vs. Sith issue will never be solved in the Star Wars universe.


I disagree issue can be solved and it is simple but i said my solution already and it should be possible to do that in game not just be pro-templar or mage.  

I'm not saying that it is impossible to solve. I am saying that it isn't going to be, from a development stand point.

Xilizhra wrote...

It was not Orsino's job to stop Meredith, it was his job to control the Circle which he failed miserably at. THAT is why he is partially to blame... Oh and he was a dirty Blood Mage who associated with a mass murderer..

The latter was to avoid Annulment, the former... well, when the Annulment came around, I daresay it was worth it if enough mages had enough tricks up their sleeves to survive the templar onslaught.

Yes, because Meredith was totally on the verge of calling for an Annulment during act 1 and 2...... Oh wait, she wasn't. She was actually showing herself to be exceptionally tolerant for blood mages and their associates. Hmmm might it be that Orsino was simply covering his own ass, while gaining knowledge of magic that he craved? Certainly seems that way.
And that "Templar Onslaught" would never even had happened had Orsino been remotely capable of doing his job.

Xilizhra wrote...

The issue is not supposed to be solved. Ever. Since it is an integral part of the DA universe. The solving of the issue would result in a lessening of the universe itself. Kinda of how the Jedi vs. Sith issue will never be solved in the Star Wars universe.

It's an integral part of the DA universe... for now. But the Dragon Age is supposed to bring about great change.

The Circles are disolved and the Chantry is falling apart. Change enough is comming. The mage vs. mundane issue will NEVER be resolved, no matter which temporary solutions are applied.

#390
TheKomandorShepard

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...



I'm not saying that it is impossible to solve. I am saying that it isn't going to be, from a development stand point.


It shouldn't be that way i hope they don't force you "but you must" my solution is pretty easy , simple and effective and i don't see any reason why my inquisitor couldn't take that option beyond stupid lack of option like in tallis ending case and that same for da 2 ending where for no reason you have to take one side.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 10 novembre 2013 - 02:15 .


#391
Xilizhra

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Yes, because Meredith was totally on the verge of calling for an Annulment during act 1 and 2...... Oh wait, she wasn't. She was actually showing herself to be exceptionally tolerant for blood mages and their associates. Hmmm might it be that Orsino was simply covering his own ass, while gaining knowledge of magic that he craved? Certainly seems that way.

She certainly seems to have been willing to jump the gun at any point, and only did so when she took over the city altogether without possible resistance from the viscount.

And that "Templar Onslaught" would never even had happened had Orsino been remotely capable of doing his job.

Since he's perfectly capable, evidently it would have.

The Circles are disolved and the Chantry is falling apart. Change enough is comming. The mage vs. mundane issue will NEVER be resolved, no matter which temporary solutions are applied.

We shall see. But what would you do if it was?

#392
MisterJB

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Lol, look at Xil white knighting Quentin.
Mike Laidlaw has already said that mages will always be dangerous. They're not solving the issue anytime soon.

#393
EmperorSahlertz

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, because Meredith was totally on the verge of calling for an Annulment during act 1 and 2...... Oh wait, she wasn't. She was actually showing herself to be exceptionally tolerant for blood mages and their associates. Hmmm might it be that Orsino was simply covering his own ass, while gaining knowledge of magic that he craved? Certainly seems that way.

She certainly seems to have been willing to jump the gun at any point, and only did so when she took over the city altogether without possible resistance from the viscount.

The Viscount doesn't even have a say in the Annulment in the first place, so he certainly wasn't a hindrance. And tehre wasn't even a mention of a possible annulment in he first two acts, so Meredith certainly didn't exhibit the behavior you try to project on to her. 

Xilizhra wrote...

And that "Templar Onslaught" would never even had happened had Orsino been remotely capable of doing his job.

Since he's perfectly capable, evidently it would have.

The Circle was notorious for its rebellious nature. That is in itself a symptom of mismanagement. Management that Orsino was responsible for. He was hihgly incompetent, and not fit for his rank. It is as simple as that. Meredith certainly didn't make it easy for him either. But then again, he could at least try to do his job....

Xilizhra wrote...

The Circles are disolved and the Chantry is falling apart. Change enough is comming. The mage vs. mundane issue will NEVER be resolved, no matter which temporary solutions are applied.

We shall see. But what would you do if it was?

I'd probably find another game. Dragon Age only got three things going for it on the matter of major plot points: Mages, Elves and Qunari.
The mage issue encompasses 80% of every conflcit on Thedas, ranging from Tevinter to the Darkspawn. The issue is such an important one, that it will be forever present in Dragon Age, or the franchise will die.
The Elves and the Qunari issues are not big enough, nor captivating enough to justify a multi-million dollar franchise.

#394
Xilizhra

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The Viscount doesn't even have a say in the Annulment in the first place, so he certainly wasn't a hindrance. And tehre wasn't even a mention of a possible annulment in he first two acts, so Meredith certainly didn't exhibit the behavior you try to project on to her.

She was always violent and impulsive, and doesn't become noticeably more so in Act 3.

The Circle was notorious for its rebellious nature. That is in itself a symptom of mismanagement. Management that Orsino was responsible for. He was hihgly incompetent, and not fit for his rank. It is as simple as that. Meredith certainly didn't make it easy for him either. But then again, he could at least try to do his job....

His job was forced into being simply protecting the maes from Meredith.

I'd probably find another game. Dragon Age only got three things going for it on the matter of major plot points: Mages, Elves and Qunari.
The mage issue encompasses 80% of every conflcit on Thedas, ranging from Tevinter to the Darkspawn. The issue is such an important one, that it will be forever present in Dragon Age, or the franchise will die.
The Elves and the Qunari issues are not big enough, nor captivating enough to justify a multi-million dollar franchise.

Even if the mage conflict is largely solved in this game, there's still templars and one more round with the darkspawn to go.

#395
EmperorSahlertz

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Xilizhra wrote...

The Viscount doesn't even have a say in the Annulment in the first place, so he certainly wasn't a hindrance. And tehre wasn't even a mention of a possible annulment in he first two acts, so Meredith certainly didn't exhibit the behavior you try to project on to her.

She was always violent and impulsive, and doesn't become noticeably more so in Act 3.

Characteristics that wasn't showcased AT ALL until act 3..... So basically I'm gonna call bull**** on your statement. She was stern certainy and a hardliner, but she was not known for her impulsive or overly violent nature.

Xilizhra wrote...

The Circle was notorious for its rebellious nature. That is in itself a symptom of mismanagement. Management that Orsino was responsible for. He was hihgly incompetent, and not fit for his rank. It is as simple as that. Meredith certainly didn't make it easy for him either. But then again, he could at least try to do his job....

His job was forced into being simply protecting the maes from Meredith.

Protect them from what? Meredith didn't present any danger for the mages until act 3. There were Templars within the Order that did that, but Meredith was not ne of them. Orsino's unwillingness to help Meredith in her job, ultimately lead to her being unwilling to help Orsino with his. Had rsino helped Meredith, and actually done his job, then I'd be willing to bet that Meredith would have been far more agreable to Orsino's protest. However, since Orsino was determined to prove hismelf the worst ever First Enchanter to ever be granted that title, he decided against actually doing his job, and instead decided to cover for a psychopathic mass murderer. Good job Orsino-boy! Jolly good job!

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd probably find another game. Dragon Age only got three things going for it on the matter of major plot points: Mages, Elves and Qunari.
The mage issue encompasses 80% of every conflcit on Thedas, ranging from Tevinter to the Darkspawn. The issue is such an important one, that it will be forever present in Dragon Age, or the franchise will die.
The Elves and the Qunari issues are not big enough, nor captivating enough to justify a multi-million dollar franchise.

Even if the mage conflict is largely solved in this game, there's still templars and one more round with the darkspawn to go.

Darkspawn are by themselves boring, and Templars are not an issue of their own. Templar-Mage issues goes under the "Mage issue" umbrella term. The mage-issue will never be solved. It simply can't be.

#396
dragonflight288

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Even if the mage conflict is largely solved in this game, there's still templars and one more round with the darkspawn to go.


Some templars you mean, and wasn't there seven old gods, so there are at least two more blights. Not to mention how many Awakened darkspawn may exist whether or not the Architect was killed, so they may make organized raids on the surface and have a mini-blight without the need for an archdemon at all.

#397
Xilizhra

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Characteristics that wasn't showcased AT ALL until act 3..... So basically I'm gonna call bull**** on your statement. She was stern certainy and a hardliner, but she was not known for her impulsive or overly violent nature.

Everyone except Cullen calls her on it; she just doesn't show up until the end of Act 2.

Protect them from what? Meredith didn't present any danger for the mages until act 3. There were Templars within the Order that did that, but Meredith was not ne of them. Orsino's unwillingness to help Meredith in her job, ultimately lead to her being unwilling to help Orsino with his. Had rsino helped Meredith, and actually done his job, then I'd be willing to bet that Meredith would have been far more agreable to Orsino's protest. However, since Orsino was determined to prove hismelf the worst ever First Enchanter to ever be granted that title, he decided against actually doing his job, and instead decided to cover for a psychopathic mass murderer. Good job Orsino-boy! Jolly good job!

Mages are always in danger from templars, and not just Meredith. There was also Alrik to contend with. And he'd have doomed the Circle had he exposed Quentin.

Darkspawn are by themselves boring, and Templars are not an issue of their own. Templar-Mage issues goes under the "Mage issue" umbrella term. The mage-issue will never be solved. It simply can't be.

Some templars you mean, and wasn't there seven old gods, so there are at least two more blights. Not to mention how many Awakened darkspawn may exist whether or not the Architect was killed, so they may make organized raids on the surface and have a mini-blight without the need for an archdemon at all.

Oops, I meant to say "qunari," not "templars." But the darkspawn don't have to be boring if we confront whatever entity corrupted the magisters to begin with. I seriously doubt we'll have another Blight plot, though, although I'd really like to speak with Razikale or Lusacan in their uncorrupted forms.

#398
EmperorSahlertz

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Xilizhra wrote...

Characteristics that wasn't showcased AT ALL until act 3..... So basically I'm gonna call bull**** on your statement. She was stern certainy and a hardliner, but she was not known for her impulsive or overly violent nature.

Everyone except Cullen calls her on it; she just doesn't show up until the end of Act 2.

A few recruits who have never met her, Thrask and Anders are not "everyone". And Thrask doesn't really critize her violence or impulsiveness. He just said that he thinks she is needlessly antagonizing the mages. Which one could be inclined to agree wtih. Kind of like how Orsino needlessly antagonizes the Templars.

Xilizhra wrote...

Protect them from what? Meredith didn't present any danger for the mages until act 3. There were Templars within the Order that did that, but Meredith was not ne of them. Orsino's unwillingness to help Meredith in her job, ultimately lead to her being unwilling to help Orsino with his. Had rsino helped Meredith, and actually done his job, then I'd be willing to bet that Meredith would have been far more agreable to Orsino's protest. However, since Orsino was determined to prove hismelf the worst ever First Enchanter to ever be granted that title, he decided against actually doing his job, and instead decided to cover for a psychopathic mass murderer. Good job Orsino-boy! Jolly good job!

Mages are always in danger from templars, and not just Meredith. There was also Alrik to contend with. And he'd have doomed the Circle had he exposed Quentin.

Alrik does not hold that kind of power. Had any of the Templars uncovered Quintin, then he would just have been one more Blood Mage discovered in Kirkwall. No big deal. Had Orsino and his cooperation with this mass murderer been uncovered then Orsino would have paid with his life aswell probably. But the Circle was never in any real danger. Orsino might like to think so to justify his pathetic, spinless behavior, but that doesn't really have any anchor in reality.

#399
MWImexico

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About Meredith, I think she start to lose her mind in the beginning of act 3.
Varric : "...With the viscount dead, she stepped in to keep order. Things quickly got out of hand. The more she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted. The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed. After 3 years of that, it all came crashing down. "

I wonder what Hawke was doing during this time?

I took the lines from that video (near the end) :


#400
Hellion Rex

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MWImexico wrote...

About Meredith, I think she start to lose her mind in the beginning of act 3.
Varric : "...With the viscount dead, she stepped in to keep order. Things quickly got out of hand. The more she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted. The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed. After 3 years of that, it all came crashing down. "

I wonder what Hawke was doing during this time?

I took the lines from that video (near the end) :


I think things had already begun to get worse in Act II because she had the idol. But ruling in the stead of the viscount merely made things worse.