1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Malcolm Hawke hid his talent for the wider world his entire life. Only a select few knew about his talents. It is not unheard of. Besides Viscount Khedra was corrupted over several years. Chances are he was possessed early on, and that the demon knew to remain hidden.

Fair enough, and considering that it appears to have been a major level pride demon, it would be extremely smart and cunning.

[Plaintiff]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which dastardly dastard acts did Meredith do, to warrant your questioning of her sanity as early as act 2?

The very fact that the idol was in her possession should be ringing alarm bells. Bartrand, a dwarf that is supposed to be highly resistant to magic and lyrium, was influenced in a matter of seconds.

Red lyrium seems to have a more pronounced effect on dwarves generally, though. When Varric found a piece in Act 3, it affected him almost immediatly, but the human and elf characters who are in the room at the same time don't feel any ill effects.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We only know that she purchased it. We don't know if she was ever in actual contact with it yet.

She bought it directly from Bartrand, and Anders tells us that the idol in its broken state is far more potent. And Bartrand broke it before he had given it to Meredith.

There's also her increased isolationism in Act 2.

As for the Rivain bit, wasn't it said that it was only believed Bartrand went to Rivain? For all we know, he never left actually.

The idol has shown to affect humans and Dwarves differently, I have no reason to beleive that it would corrupt Meredith instantly, just like it didn't corrupt Hawke.

Well, the codex on lyrium says that the discerning can hear its song, and while Dwarves tend to have this ability it's also due to their living underground near it. As far as I can recall, Dwarves on the surface aren't able to readily hear lyrium because they lose their stone sense.

That's the belief anyway.

Me, I'm going to labor under the belief that the lyrium called to Bartrand, then to Meredith, and also Varric. They were able to hear it singing because it wanted them to find it, playing on fears or beliefs or desires.

[HiroVoid]

So DA:I's antagonist is going to be a giant, anthropomorphic red lyrium.

[Hilarystamp]

If it affected all dwarves so quickly why did it not affect Varric in the deep roads when he was touching it. And why not affect bodan or sandal? What about the Profane? Do you think there is something controlling the lyrium. Something or someone who has mastered it powers?

[dragonflight288]

HiroVoid wrote...

So DA:I's antagonist is going to be a giant, anthropomorphic red lyrium.

Unlikely. That would be a cheap cop-out. No, the devs confirmed that the, or at least a main antagonist is the one responsible for the veil tear, and the Inquisitor spends a great deal of time hunting whoever this person or group is.

I have more faith in Gaider as a writer than I do in Casey Hudson, so I'm hopeful this will work out well.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 11 novembre 2013 - 06:32 .

[Lord Raijin]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Why must you put such images in my mind? 

I think it would be a wonderful romantic story. I would pay to read something like that... or perhabs a comic

THE WRINKLES! OH GOD THE WRINKLES!

Women with wrinkles deserves loving too you know

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The ONLY cases of a mundane being possesed is either because of a Demon having crossed the Veil, and thus being able to contact mundanes, or the work of Blood Magic. So generally a Mage is to blame for eery mundane who gets possessed.

Yes, yes. Considering we only have two (?) very solid examples of non mages being actually possessed, the leader in the Free Marches and the Tarohne scenario, we can generally assume that most times mages can be at fault. But at the same time, demons being able to cross at weak points of the Veil is not exclusively a mages fault either. The veil can rip at points of high conflict, magic or no magic.

There is a difference. Demons can sometimes posses stuff in places where the veil is very thin - however, they have no idea what they are possesing.
If a veil was suddenly weakened in a large kitchen with a cook, a demon couldn't tell the difference between the cook, the cat, the potatos and the fish so he's just as likely to try to possess the cat or a plant as he is a person.

What mages can do is forcibly rip open the veil, allowing a demon to cross IN FULL (physicly). In places where the veil is thin, the demons still can't come trough, they remain in the Fade, but can reach over it.
Mages can also put a demon inside a person directly.

In other words, a single mage can do more damage to the veil in a minute than two giant armies can do in years of warfare.

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...The Circle was notorious for its rebellious nature. That is in itself a symptom of mismanagement. Management that Orsino was responsible for. He was hihgly incompetent, and not fit for his rank. It is as simple as that. Meredith certainly didn't make it easy for him either. But then again, he could at least try to do his job....

No no no no no no no no no. It is not the mismanagement that causes the Circle to get rebellious. What causes the rebellious nature is in fact that the Chantry is notorious for mistreating the mages and abusing them too. If kidnapping mages from their homes, and taking a newborn baby away from a Circle mage isn't abuse than I don't know what is. The Chantry preaches lies and hate to the communites by spreading fear. Circle mages can take so much abuse until they're motivated to do something about it. How is that incompenent? How is it the First Enchanters fault when they honestly can't do anything about it, since the Chantry runs the Circle and the Templars are the Chantries army that deals with mages. What happen to the Circle and the increasement of Blood mages in the city was largely caused by Meredith, and her strict policy. If you twist a bulls balls eventually you'll get kicked in the face by his hooves.

[HiroVoid]

But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The ONLY cases of a mundane being possesed is either because of a Demon having crossed the Veil, and thus being able to contact mundanes, or the work of Blood Magic. So generally a Mage is to blame for eery mundane who gets possessed.

If the Veil thins due to massive amounts of bloodshed, kinda hard to say that's a mage's fault. War doesn't require a mage, after all.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...The Circle was notorious for its rebellious nature. That is in itself a symptom of mismanagement. Management that Orsino was responsible for. He was hihgly incompetent, and not fit for his rank. It is as simple as that. Meredith certainly didn't make it easy for him either. But then again, he could at least try to do his job....

No no no no no no no no no. It is not the mismanagement that causes the Circle to get rebellious. What causes the rebellious nature is in fact that the Chantry is notorious for mistreating the mages and abusing them too. If kidnapping mages from their homes, and taking a newborn baby away from a Circle mage isn't abuse than I don't know what is.

Try canings, or lashes, or quarterings, or the rack, or having hot coals force fed to them. You know, things that happened to just regular people in the dark and middle ages when people didn't like them. Hell, I'd say what zevren went through from the crows is 100 times worse then anything a mage has gone through, excluding tranquility.

And no, the templars are not maurading hordes going around and snatching away your babies in the dead of night. This is like saying truancy officers are evil because they make sure children go through their mandatory education.

The Chantry preaches lies and hate to the communites by spreading fear. Circle mages can take so much abuse until they're motivated to do something about it. How is that incompenent? How is it the First Enchanters fault when they honestly can't do anything about it, since the Chantry runs the Circle and the Templars are the Chantries army that deals with mages.

It's incompetent because the first enchanter knew there was blood magic being used, an illegal art that is no secret to anyone, a bad art of magic that can lead to abominations and outright demon materialization to happen, and allowed it to go on unpunished, and in fact protected those who he knew practiced blood magic. It's his fault because he let a few bad apples be spared, and made it so that every mage who wasn't a blood mage had to suffer as well. He not only encourgaed weak links and corrupt mages, but willingly let non-blood mages suffer for it. Orsino is scum, who sold out some mages so that others could keep fighting the templars when it was his job to stop the fighters in the first place.

What happen to the Circle and the increasement of Blood mages in the city was largely caused by Meredith, and her strict policy. If you twist a bulls balls eventually you'll get kicked in the face by his hooves.

Actually, I believe the large increasement of blood mages was due to mages using blood magic. You know, the forbidden magic that tends to cause all kinds of badness to go down? Most practitioners summon demons who end up possessing them? Makes all mages have a bad name when they use it? That art ring a bell?

Blaming meredith for the increase of blood magic is like blaming the police for the increase of crime. It's their job to stop mage crime, and criminal activity was being commited by mages. The increased harsh treatment we see in act 3 is over the line, yeah, but that was due to her getting the idol. Look at the screwed up things it made bartrand do, and he didn't have it as long as meredith had. In act 1 and 2 meredith's rule along with those of the templars seem pretty much tame, the circle seems in okay shape, and yet we still see more blood mages trying to either take over the city or cause mass destruction then we do templars abusing their authority. Bethany even comments the circle isn't as bad as she thought it would be, and she has the most reason to find any sort of restriction on her rights disagreeable. 

[Icy Magebane]

HiroVoid wrote...

But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

Well, it's not exactly the same as taking them to the Circle and then keeping them there for life.  I'm in favor of a few years of training, maybe a decade if that much time is needed, but afterward, the mages can go where they want.  They'd still need to provide a phylactery so they could be tracked, and report to the Templars now and then, but this is nowhere near as objectionable as life in prison "for the greater good."  If they aren't imprisoned, there's nothing to rebel against.  Personally I would not like being tracked or monitored, but mages are undeniably dangerous, and it's a better alternative to life in prison.

[AlexanderCousland]

So Mage's are treated differently based on the country that they are in.
All Society's & Templars do not treat Mage's with disdain. The World of Thedas clearly says that, to state otherwise is a complete lie.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

Well, it's not exactly the same as taking them to the Circle and then keeping them there for life.  I'm in favor of a few years of training, maybe a decade if that much time is needed, but afterward, the mages can go where they want.  They'd still need to provide a phylactery so they could be tracked, and report to the Templars now and then, but this is nowhere near as objectionable as life in prison "for the greater good."  If they aren't imprisoned, there's nothing to rebel against.  Personally I would not like being tracked or monitored, but mages are undeniably dangerous, and it's a better alternative to life in prison.

trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

FreshIstay wrote...

So Mage's are treated differently based on the country that they are in.
All
Society's & Templars do not treat Mage's with disdain. The World
of Thedas clearly says that, to state otherwise is a complete
lie.

It is like stating that abomnations are rare

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 09:03 .

[Icy Magebane]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

I don't remember us coming to an agreement on that point.

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

Well, it's not exactly the same as taking them to the Circle and then keeping them there for life.  I'm in favor of a few years of training, maybe a decade if that much time is needed, but afterward, the mages can go where they want.  They'd still need to provide a phylactery so they could be tracked, and report to the Templars now and then, but this is nowhere near as objectionable as life in prison "for the greater good."  If they aren't imprisoned, there's nothing to rebel against.  Personally I would not like being tracked or monitored, but mages are undeniably dangerous, and it's a better alternative to life in prison.

trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

FreshIstay wrote...

So Mage's are treated differently based on the country that they are in.
All
Society's & Templars do not treat Mage's with disdain. The World
of Thedas clearly says that, to state otherwise is a complete
lie.

It is like stating that abomnations are rare

Well they aren't that common either. Minus Kirkwall. Kirkwall doesn't count.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

I don't remember us coming to an agreement on that point.

Why do we even have to that is stated by universe and more shown.

eluvianix wrote...


Well they aren't that common either. Minus Kirkwall. Kirkwall doesn't count.

They are common enough and thats with circle you will have much more if you make restrictions even more lax.

[Icy Magebane]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

I don't remember us coming to an agreement on that point.

Why do we even have to that is stated by universe and more shown.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or changing my opinions when presented with evidence.  Based on what I've observed, it is entirely possible for mages to live well into old age without being possessed by demons.  It is not random and precautions can be taken.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

I don't remember us coming to an agreement on that point.

Why do we even have to that is stated by universe and more shown.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or changing my opinions when presented with evidence.  Based on what I've observed, it is entirely possible for mages to live well into old age without being possessed by demons.  It is not random and precautions can be taken.

It is possible of course like hermit in the forest but still they can be possesed in every moment and it is rare even after harrowing (which is useless) mages still often become demons victims so there is no real way to prove that you won't become abomnation even for most powerful mages depression or other things that weaken your will is enough you may reject that but mages are abomnation bombs and they are ticking.      

[AlexanderCousland]

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
trening isn't helping very much when it comes about becoming abomnation so nope chantry system works already bad because it is too lax and we have army of abomnations.

I don't remember us coming to an agreement on that point.

Why do we even have to that is stated by universe and more shown.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or changing my opinions when presented with evidence.  Based on what I've observed, it is entirely possible for mages to live well into old age without being possessed by demons.  It is not random and precautions can be taken.

Of course it is possible. What Mage supporters fail to realize Is that the Majority of Mage's already do live normal lives.
The World of Thedas states that you have to have a High degree of Magical ability to even be considered for the circle and kids usually arent taken until after puberty because that's Usually when Magic unleashes itself. Hell...In Tevinter it's considered a High Honor to be admitted into the circle, It's like getting into Harvard. Bad Templars and Bad Mage's equally made this conflict worse.

[Ieldra]

HiroVoid wrote...
But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

Indeed it does. Unfortunately, learning to control your magic as a mage is mandatory, and complete decentralization appears unfeasible to me given the risk of possession and out-of-control magic for the untrained. The differences in my vision of Circles as mage schools are these:

(1) Contact with the outside world is explicitly encouraged. Apprentices may not be able to leave, but they can receive visitors and their families will be able to see them. 
(2) The focus is on learning, not on internment. Circles do not resemble prisons in their architecture, and the internment is temporary unless the apprentice fails tests to see whether they're in control of their magic and emotionally stable enough to have a reasonable level of resistance to demonic influence. Full mages are free to leave the Circle altogether.
(3) There is a "magic police" independent from the Chantry which derives its authority from the laws of the nation, it only interferes if bad stuff actually happens and has no authority to interfere or even be present in mages' everyday lives unless as part of an investigation.

Rationale:
(ad 1) I think encouraging contact with the outside world is important for non-mages to see that mages are just people, and most of them want the same thing they want. Isolation breeds suspicion, and suspicion breeds persecution.
(ad 3) Mages are a source of power. If different nations can make different laws governing magic, this will encourage a balance between the interests of mages and non-mages. Nations will want to make laws encouraging mages to live there while also safeguarding their population from magical abuse. With the current setup, nobody but the mages themselves is interested in their wellbeing.


 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
But isn't most people's ideas of having to get mages trained at circles anyway ultimately still going to mean forcing mages away from their home?

Indeed it does. Unfortunately, learning to control your magic as a mage is mandatory, and complete decentralization appears unfeasible to me given the risk of possession and out-of-control magic for the untrained. The differences in my vision of Circles as mage schools are these:

(1) Contact with the outside world is explicitly encouraged. Apprentices may not be able to leave, but they can receive visitors and their families will be able to see them. 
(2) The focus is on learning, not on internment. Circles do not resemble prisons in their architecture, and the internment is temporary unless the apprentice fails tests to see whether they're in control of their magic and emotionally stable enough to have a reasonable level of resistance to demonic influence. Full mages are free to leave the Circle altogether.
(3) There is a "magic police" independent from the Chantry which derives its authority from the laws of the nation, it only interferes if bad stuff actually happens and has no authority to interfere or even be present in mages' everyday lives unless as part of an investigation.

Rationale:
(ad 1) I think encouraging contact with the outside world is important for non-mages to see that mages are just people, and most of them want the same thing they want. Isolation breeds suspicion, and suspicion breeds persecution.
(ad 3) Mages are a source of power. If different nations can make different laws governing magic, this will encourage a balance between the interests of mages and non-mages. Nations will want to make laws encouraging mages to live there while also safeguarding their population from magical abuse. With the current setup, nobody but the mages themselves is interested in their wellbeing.


 

2.LoL full mages what that even mean that mages what passed harrowing?Yes that very good idea because mages after harrowing proved so many times they are immune to demonic possession there is no such thing as proved mage they will be tempted and harrowing is luck based test so it is extremely naive on your side. 
3.Yes because nations are such nice places utopia damn utopia oh wait im sure that corrupted orlais and antiva will be great holding power over circle antivian crows and power hungry nobles will love that.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 10:58 .

[Ieldra]

Neither did I aim for an utopian state, nor do I think it achievable. I have a specific problem with religion-induced prejudice since it makes no sense and can't be argued against. It's by its nature not open to negotiation. Mundane regulation is more balanced. If a nation makes oppressive laws against mages then they'll leave. That does mean mages aren't protected from being subject of political conflicts any more, yes. It also means they have their own voice in them.

Regarding possession: the Circles are breeding grounds for large-scale abomination outbreaks since once one mage is possessed, the demon will have plenty of other mages to summons other demons into. There are also other factors that increase the risks, compared to mages who have lived their whole lives out of Circles. Lastly, I don't think DA2 gives a representative picture since there were outside magical influences at work.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:12 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Neither did I aim for an utopian state, nor do I think it achievable. I have a specific problem with religion-induced prejudice since it makes no sense and can't be argued against. It's by its nature not open to negotiation. Mundane regulation is more balanced. If a nation makes oppressive laws against mages then they'll leave. That does mean mages aren't protected from being subject of political conflicts any more, yes. It also means they have their own voice in them.

Ehh wait wait are you suggesting that mages can just leave when they want (wellcome to tevinter babe) or just when laws will be oppressive and then when laws will be oppressive then mages will ask nicely and country will allow them to leave?

Swear some solutions presented here are naive and simple and will just work badly other other hand are overly complicated but still stupid that work as badly like that simple and naive.Solution kill them all is best solution simple and practical.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Regarding possession: the Circles are
breeding grounds for large-scale abomination outbreaks since once one
mage is possessed, the demon will have plenty of other mages to summons
other demons into. There are also other factors that increase the risks,
compared to mages who have lived their whole lives out of Circles.
Lastly, I don't think DA2 gives a representative picture since there
were outside magical influences at work.  

And as you said one mage is sufficient to lead to disaster like Uldred so no mage after harrowing or not danger is that same one power hungry mage and we have abomnation , one moment of distraction we have abomnation , someone will attack mage bum we have abomnation , mage lover will be sick he will try use blood magic bum we have abomnation.So nope whatever you will try justify them there will be always place for excuse in this world because world is cruel place and won't hold because someone is a mage.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:25 .