1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Even the templars can't prevent mages from fleeing the Circles, and that's for a much more uncertain fate. Why do you think mundane governments would be any more effective in preventing them from leaving their country, even should they be willing to ****** off their mages by trying? Also, things depend on culture. The Empress of Orlais might be able to get away with passing a law that prevents mages from leaving the country, but if the king of Ferelden tried the same, he wouldn't remain king long. Which, ironically, makes Ferelden a nice place to live for a mage, everything else being equal.

Edit:
Any Circle system run by a transnational power would also be unacceptable without a rule that mages may leave one Circle for another.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:36 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Even the templars can't prevent mages from fleeing the Circles, and that's for a much more uncertain fate. Why do you think mundane governments would be any more effective in preventing them from leaving their country, even should they be willing to ****** off their mages by trying? Also, things depend on culture. The Empress of Orlais might be able to get away with passing a law that prevents mages from leaving the country, but if the king of Ferelden tried the same, he wouldn't remain king long. Which, ironically, makes Ferelden a nice place to live for a mage, everything else being equal.

Naive see Loghain he would get away easily with that what he did and even more become a hero (well he already is) why that didn't happened because he lost.Again escacpes from circle are rather rare unless country faces war like in ferelden or starkhaven where circle was destroyed (if i renember correctly).And ferelden isn't equal ferelden is slightly nicer than most nations we seen or heard but far from equality see elves or opinion fereldes about mages.And again mages would easily be corrupted by country like orlais and start dream about power because as you said they are humans and humans are cruel , selfish ,greedy , lazy ,envious and ruthless and i could speak about human flaws more but i don't need to. 

And understand non-mages don't care about mages unless they can use them or their enemy use them and no one will care about what country do mages even if they will burn them.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 11 novembre 2013 - 11:46 .

[Xilizhra]

Try canings, or lashes, or quarterings, or the rack, or having hot coals force fed to them. You know, things that happened to just regular people in the dark and middle ages when people didn't like them. Hell, I'd say what zevren went through from the crows is 100 times worse then anything a mage has gone through, excluding tranquility.

Given that Tranquility is common enough to maintain a stable workforce at every Circle, I don't think that helps much. And some of the punishments you mentioned previously have been mentioned for mages; certainly lashing.

And no, the templars are not maurading hordes going around and snatching away your babies in the dead of night. This is like saying truancy officers are evil because they make sure children go through their mandatory education.

Assuming said education is controlled by vicious bigots with de facto power of life and death over you.

It's incompetent because the first enchanter knew there was blood magic being used, an illegal art that is no secret to anyone, a bad art of magic that can lead to abominations and outright demon materialization to happen, and allowed it to go on unpunished, and in fact protected those who he knew practiced blood magic. It's his fault because he let a few bad apples be spared, and made it so that every mage who wasn't a blood mage had to suffer as well. He not only encourgaed weak links and corrupt mages, but willingly let non-blood mages suffer for it. Orsino is scum, who sold out some mages so that others could keep fighting the templars when it was his job to stop the fighters in the first place.

Evidence? He specifically tries to stop one group rumored to be using blood magic in Best Served Cold. This seems like fairly baseless speculation.

Actually, I believe the large increasement of blood mages was due to mages using blood magic. You know, the forbidden magic that tends to cause all kinds of badness to go down? Most practitioners summon demons who end up possessing them? Makes all mages have a bad name when they use it? That art ring a bell?

Some do, some don't. Avernus, Zathrian, Merrill, even whackjobs like Tahrone were never possessed (in fact, the only named blood mages I can remember being possessed were Uldred and Grace).

Blaming meredith for the increase of blood magic is like blaming the police for the increase of crime.

Not by any means an unknown situation.

The increased harsh treatment we see in act 3 is over the line, yeah, but that was due to her getting the idol. Look at the screwed up things it made bartrand do, and he didn't have it as long as meredith had. In act 1 and 2 meredith's rule along with those of the templars seem pretty much tame, the circle seems in okay shape, and yet we still see more blood mages trying to either take over the city or cause mass destruction then we do templars abusing their authority. Bethany even comments the circle isn't as bad as she thought it would be, and she has the most reason to find any sort of restriction on her rights disagreeable.

Her control is still horrible from everything we hear about it in 1 and 2, we just see less. And Bethany has a rather coddled position thanks to Cullen's patronage.

[Icy Magebane]

Xilizhra wrote...
Some do, some don't. Avernus, Zathrian, Merrill, even whackjobs like Tahrone were never possessed (in fact, the only named blood mages I can remember being possessed were Uldred and Grace).

This is an excellent point... Zathrian avoided demonic possession for over two hundred years.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Assuming said education is controlled by vicious bigots with de facto power of life and death over you.

So everyone in the Cahtnry is a vicious bigot now?

First of all, you seem to forget that not all children of mages are mages themselves. So they get to have a nice, normal life.
Secondly, mage powers don't manifest instantly. So all children of mages are treated and raised the same untill such powers are manifested. When that happens, mages kids are moved to the Circle.

Evidence? He specifically tries to stop one group rumored to be using blood magic in Best Served Cold. This seems like fairly baseless speculation.

He could be doing it to cover his own ass. Ya know..sicne we're all wildly speculating and assinging motivations.

Some do, some don't. Avernus, Zathrian, Merrill, even whackjobs like Tahrone were never possessed (in fact, the only named blood mages I can remember being possessed were Uldred and Grace).

Wether or nto they got possessed, they aren't goo examples, given all the damage they caused.
Avernus? Summons demons, performs horrible experiments.
Zathrian - uses blood magic to curse people and prolong his life, brining ruin and suffering to many
Tahrone - was implanting demons into people
Meril is the onyl one on the list that is somewhat sane, and even she is playing dangerous games.

Her control is still horrible from everything we hear about it in 1 and 2, we just see less. And Bethany has a rather coddled position thanks to Cullen's patronage.

She seems strict in Act1, but not crazy.
I wouldn't call her horrible.

[Xilizhra]

So everyone in the Cahtnry is a vicious bigot now?

Enough are.

He could be doing it to cover his own ass. Ya know..sicne we're all wildly speculating and assinging motivations.

Indeed, thus your condemnation of him as incompetent doesn't have sufficient evidence.

Wether or nto they got possessed, they aren't goo examples, given all the damage they caused.

Irrelevant, as the point was solely about whether they were possessed. Moral character is up to the individual mage, the same as it is for everyone else.

She seems strict in Act1, but not crazy.

She's a tyrant in all three Acts and doesn't change much by Act 3. And I find it remarkably difficult to believe that she didn't know anything about Alrik's Rites of Tranquility, given how there are quite a few Tranquil just wandering around in the Gallows talking about Alrik saving them, or whatever.

[MWImexico]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blaming meredith for the increase of blood magic is like blaming the police for the increase of crime.

Not by any means an unknown situation.

Also, in real life, people tends to react after the police misconducts. Discontentment can lead to riots in these cases.

[dragonflight288]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Even the templars can't prevent mages from fleeing the Circles, and that's for a much more uncertain fate. Why do you think mundane governments would be any more effective in preventing them from leaving their country, even should they be willing to ****** off their mages by trying? Also, things depend on culture. The Empress of Orlais might be able to get away with passing a law that prevents mages from leaving the country, but if the king of Ferelden tried the same, he wouldn't remain king long. Which, ironically, makes Ferelden a nice place to live for a mage, everything else being equal.

Edit:
Any Circle system run by a transnational power would also be unacceptable without a rule that mages may leave one Circle for another.

Ironically, because Ferelden's power seems to go from the bottom on up, well, closer to middle on up, it's this reason that other countries think Ferelden is a backwards dog-country and is barely important at all, save for the Orlesians who want their province back.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Some do, some don't. Avernus, Zathrian, Merrill, even whackjobs like Tahrone were never possessed (in fact, the only named blood mages I can remember being possessed were Uldred and Grace).

This is an excellent point... Zathrian avoided demonic possession for over two hundred years.

True but zathrian was bonded with lady so he might be immune like wynne because she alrady is possessed. 

[MWImexico]

If I remember well, the lady is bonded to the wolf, not to Zathrian. Zathrian has to die so the curse can stop, his longevity is bonded to the curse. If the curse stops, he dies.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

If I remember well, the lady is bonded to the wolf, not to Zathrian. Zathrian has to die so the curse can stop, his longevity is bonded to the curse. If the curse stops, he dies.

But still he is bonded to her and curse what gives him immortality what is rather not "normal" for mage and curse and lady affect on him. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Enough are.

Well, given it's you saying that, it doesn't mean much.

Indeed, thus your condemnation of him as incompetent doesn't have sufficient evidence.

Call me when you produce evidence for all the many unsupported claims of yours.

Irrelevant, as the point was solely about whether they were possessed. Moral character is up to the individual mage, the same as it is for everyone else.

Relevant, given that mages are redicolously dangerous even wihtout being possesed.

She's a tyrant in all three Acts and doesn't change much by Act 3.

Other people disagree on your assesment.

[MWImexico]

@ Komandor : Lol who said it was normal? You missing the point again.

Modifié par MWImexico, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

@ Komandor : Lol who said it was normal? You missing the point again.

So see zathrian isn't normal and he is bounded to curse and lady so he might not be possible to possess.And we reach point.

[MWImexico]

@Komandor : Your point : "True but zathrian was bonded with lady so he might be immune like wynne because she alrady is possessed. "

What I understood : He can't be possessed again since he is already "bonded" (possessed?) by the lady.

My answer : I think the lady possessed the wolf, not Zathrian.

Your answer : It's a rare case so it's possible that the curse itself protects him from possession. (I'm paraphrasing)

Now do you see the diference between the meaning of your first statement and the last? But ok, your last opinion still can be true, it's surely difficult to prove otherwise.   

Modifié par MWImexico, 11 novembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Relevant, given that mages are redicolously dangerous even wihtout being possesed.

Which still has nothing to do with the point I was responding to.

Other people disagree on your assesment.

In-game, the only people who do are Cullen, Tranquil, and mooks.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

@Komandor : Your point : "True but zathrian was bonded with lady so he might be immune like wynne because she alrady is possessed. "

What I understood : He can't be possessed again since he is already "bonded" (possessed?) by the lady.

My answer : I think the lady possessed the wolf, not Zathrian.

Your answer : It's a rare case so it's possible that the curse itself protects him from possession. (I'm paraphrasing)

Now do you see the diference between the meaning of your first statement and the last? But ok, your last opinion still can be true, it's surely difficult to prove otherwise.   

Well my point is that he possible he can't be possessed due his well lets call that connection with lady (curse?) and make him abnormal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Other people disagree on your assesment.

In-game, the only people who do are Cullen, Tranquil, and mooks.

And the only ones agreeing with you are Thrask and Anders. So your own asinine statement holds little water.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Relevant, given that mages are redicolously dangerous even wihtout being possesed.

Which still has nothing to do with the point I was responding to.

and the point of the discussion I was having is the dnager of mages and the arguments for leting them go free.

In-game, the only people who do are Cullen, Tranquil, and mooks.

There are more actually, but it's not like it matters. You're just gonna discount everything anyway.

[Jaison1986]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Relevant, given that mages are redicolously dangerous even wihtout being possesed.

Which still has nothing to do with the point I was responding to.

and the point of the discussion I was having is the dnager of mages and the arguments for leting them go free.

In-game, the only people who do are Cullen, Tranquil, and mooks.

There are more actually, but it's not like it matters. You're just gonna discount everything anyway.

Like you guys do?

[EmperorSahlertz]

By all means, please point me to the parts I straight up discount.

[Angrywolves]

No blood magic. No abominations.
Maybe exile would be a viable solution for some.
Apologies to the Aussie/New Zealand players, but a large landmass or island like that where the mages could move to voluntarily , and be away from the prejudices.
Australia started as a penal colony.
Don't recall seeing anything like that on the limited maps of Thedas .

[RobRam10]

Angrywolves wrote...

No blood magic. No abominations.
Maybe exile would be a viable solution for some.
Apologies to the Aussie/New Zealand players, but a large landmass or island like that where the mages could move to voluntarily , and be away from the prejudices.
Australia started as a penal colony.
Don't recall seeing anything like that on the limited maps of Thedas .

That  would be pretty much be saying "hey lets invite the glorious Imperium into our lands"

Modifié par RobRam10, 11 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By all means, please point me to the parts I straight up discount.

And the point would be.....? You are just going to discount every statement I do, since your flawless logic shows that mages are constant time bombs, that need to be constantly watched over by Templars led by an organization whose fundaments are more based on surpestition then fairness. And any other system that works differently from the Templars and the Chantry are by default bad and doomed to disaster, while the awesome Templars are void of imperfections and the only times they do something bad is because they are being mind controlled by lyrium idols. What an flawless logic. I am no one to defy, right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By all means, please point me to the parts I straight up discount.

And the point would be.....? You are just going to discount every statement I do, since your flawless logic shows that mages are constant time bombs, that need to be constantly watched over by Templars led by an organization whose fundaments are more based on surpestition then fairness. And any other system that works differently from the Templars and the Chantry are by default bad and doomed to disaster, while the awesome Templars are void of imperfections and the only times they do something bad is because they are being mind controlled by lyrium idols. What an flawless logic. I am no one to defy, right?

The point would be that you have to backup whatever accusations you throw at people. But the very fact that you ascribe what seems to be Lotion's arguements to me, seems to indicate that you havn't even bothered to make a distinction between who the participants in the arguements are. So yes, any further discussion with you would be pointless, since you obviously do not want to have any.