1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

Imperium ?
I guess you're referring to whatever natives would live there, like the Maoiri (spelling ) of Australia .
Lots of racial tension and politics in that.
shrugs.
Par Follon has the Fex, who are native there and are stuck with the Qunari, others would have to put up with mage exiles.
It's Dragon Age, it doesn't have to be pretty or neat.

[dragonflight288]

@ Jaison,

Actually, in the support Templars 2.0 thread, he called for increasing education of magic and mages and how that would lead to less prejudice against mages. I don't think Emperor is adamantly pro-Chantry and Templar's so much as he is pro-let-the-mages-earn-their-freedom by degrees and one step at a time, otherwise the prejudice of the uneducated and the fearful will force the mages into situations where they are forced to become blood mages and abominations.

At least, that's my understanding of Emperer's stance.

[RobRam10]

Angrywolves wrote...

Imperium ?
I guess you're referring to whatever natives would live there, like the Maoiri (spelling ) of Australia .
Lots of racial tension and politics in that.
shrugs.
Par Follon has the Fex, who are native there and are stuck with the Qunari, others would have to put up with mage exiles.
It's Dragon Age, it doesn't have to be pretty or neat.

My point is that the Chantry/Andrastian nations would never exile the mages in their lands, due to the fear of a Second Imperium being formed which I would not go against the idea haha. Plus many mages would go to Tevinter.

Modifié par RobRam10, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:05 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Jaison,

Actually, in the support Templars 2.0 thread, he called for increasing education of magic and mages and how that would lead to less prejudice against mages. I don't think Emperor is adamantly pro-Chantry and Templar's so much as he is pro-let-the-mages-earn-their-freedom by degrees and one step at a time, otherwise the prejudice of the uneducated and the fearful will force the mages into situations where they are forced to become blood mages and abominations.

At least, that's my understanding of Emperer's stance.

More or less. I still don't like Blood Mages..

[Angrywolves]

Go to Tevinter, and subject themselves to those folks, who may be subject to a future Qunari invasion ? My guess is if freed, a few would go to Tevinter, but most wouldn't .
As for these exiles becoming another Tevinter Imperium, there's that possibility .
I presume one of the Inquisitor's jobs will be settling the mage/templar issue. Some players think the Inquisitor only has to seal the rifts and stop whatever caused them. But I think it's much more than just that, the Inquisitor has to help bring a measure of peace and stability to Thedas. shrugs. Whether exiling the mages will be a possibility remains to be seen. I hope it's an option.

[Flemmy]

I support mages, Like Isabella said " Everyone deserve to be free..."

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By all means, please point me to the parts I straight up discount.

And the point would be.....? You are just going to discount every statement I do, since your flawless logic shows that mages are constant time bombs, that need to be constantly watched over by Templars led by an organization whose fundaments are more based on surpestition then fairness. And any other system that works differently from the Templars and the Chantry are by default bad and doomed to disaster, while the awesome Templars are void of imperfections and the only times they do something bad is because they are being mind controlled by lyrium idols. What an flawless logic. I am no one to defy, right?

The point would be that you have to backup whatever accusations you throw at people. But the very fact that you ascribe what seems to be Lotion's arguements to me, seems to indicate that you havn't even bothered to make a distinction between who the participants in the arguements are. So yes, any further discussion with you would be pointless, since you obviously do not want to have any.

Well I don't know about the others but my reason for disliking Meredith even before act three and believing she's responsibility for the ill treatment of the mages is her position within the templars themselves. Now the templars are a military order with a clear chain of command. Up to a point. To me this means that the higher up you are the more people you're responsible for and you carry some of the blaim for their actions.

Take for example a field commander with six subordinates. Let's say I'm that commander. If we're in an occupied nation and Freddy, a soldier under my command, goes and rapes Jacky then I am responsible for that rape as well and should have to attone for it. Mind you my sense of justice is more about compensating the victim then just punishing the criminal though punishment can be important.

The more times such events happen and the clearer the warning signs are the greater the responsibility that falls on me. If I noticed that Freddy is leaving his room every night for who knows what reason and this has been going on for a week with no intervention from me then well my failure would be all the greater and the consequences to me should be all the greater.

Now as the templars are a military order I apply these same rules of ethics to Meredith. So as the rapes happened under her watch I see her as a rapist. As the mages were tortured under her watch I hold her responsible for those as well. The same goes for the murders.

Such chains of responsibility are even shown in business or suppose to be. I spent a little bit of time working with PII. Personal information. If I were to steel someones information not only would I be fined, and probably jailed, the company would have received an even larger fine and possibly faced sanctions after a trial decided how at fault they were.

[Hilarystamp]

Right..... Meredith knew of all the crimes under her and did nothing to make things right. Instead she allowed things to continue and blamed the mages. WITCH!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

Well I don't know about the others but my reason for disliking Meredith even before act three and believing she's responsibility for the ill treatment of the mages is her position within the templars themselves. Now the templars are a military order with a clear chain of command. Up to a point. To me this means that the higher up you are the more people you're responsible for and you carry some of the blaim for their actions.

That's not really how it works though. You as a superior officer are not responsible for the actions of your subordinates while they are off-duty. And even when they are on-duty you are only responsible for their actions if you consent them, or know about them without preventing them.
There is no evidence that Meredith knew anyhting about what Alrik was doing. So holding her responsible for Alrik's actions are not fair. Unless you therefore agree that we should hold Orsino responsible for every Blood Mage in the Circle aswell. At least then you are fair in your judgement.

Inprea wrote...

The more times such events happen and the clearer the warning signs are the greater the responsibility that falls on me. If I noticed that Freddy is leaving his room every night for who knows what reason and this has been going on for a week with no intervention from me then well my failure would be all the greater and the consequences to me should be all the greater.

Circles are big places. I wouldn't presume to know the face of every single Tranquil. Therefore I can't demand of Meredith to do the same. Hell not even Orsino seemed to notice otherwise he would ahve taken the matter to Meredith. If Orsino did notice, then he didn't take the matter to Meredith. And then Orsino is to blame for the Alrik being allowed to advance his agenda.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Well I don't know about the others but my reason for disliking Meredith even before act three and believing she's responsibility for the ill treatment of the mages is her position within the templars themselves. Now the templars are a military order with a clear chain of command. Up to a point. To me this means that the higher up you are the more people you're responsible for and you carry some of the blaim for their actions.

That's not really how it works though. You as a superior officer are not responsible for the actions of your subordinates while they are off-duty. And even when they are on-duty you are only responsible for their actions if you consent them, or know about them without preventing them.
There is no evidence that Meredith knew anyhting about what Alrik was doing. So holding her responsible for Alrik's actions are not fair. Unless you therefore agree that we should hold Orsino responsible for every Blood Mage in the Circle aswell. At least then you are fair in your judgement.

But there is plenty of evidence that can be gathered just by walking around the Gallows and listening to the Tranquil, and Meredith lives there.

Although she is not guilty of tranquilizing all those mages, she is guilty of not investigating Alrik and criminal negligence in her duty in that regard.

Inprea wrote...

The more times such events happen and the clearer the warning signs are the greater the responsibility that falls on me. If I noticed that Freddy is leaving his room every night for who knows what reason and this has been going on for a week with no intervention from me then well my failure would be all the greater and the consequences to me should be all the greater.

Circles are big places. I wouldn't presume to know the face of every single Tranquil. Therefore I can't demand of Meredith to do the same. Hell not even Orsino seemed to notice otherwise he would ahve taken the matter to Meredith. If Orsino did notice, then he didn't take the matter to Meredith. And then Orsino is to blame for the Alrik being allowed to advance his agenda.

We don't know what Orsino did or didn't do. We don't know what Meredith did or didn't do.

BUT, we can present the evidence to both Cullen and Elthina, and neither of them are even interested in what Alrik was doing and more interested in how Hawke came to have that evidence, which they should've, especially so in Cullen's case. But they show a total disregard in how Hawke got that evidence and how much leeway Alrik had in the first place. Heck, Cullen even says he won't ask how Hawke got the evidence, which in turn is him not doing his job of investigating the murder of a templar.

There's a lot of neglect going on that is quite visible.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That's not really how it works though. You as a superior officer are not responsible for the actions of your subordinates while they are off-duty. And even when they are on-duty you are only responsible for their actions if you consent them, or know about them without preventing them.
There is no evidence that Meredith knew anyhting about what Alrik was doing. So holding her responsible for Alrik's actions are not fair. Unless you therefore agree that we should hold Orsino responsible for every Blood Mage in the Circle aswell. At least then you are fair in your judgement.

You said it yourself I am responsible for what they do on duty. It is also my business as their superior to know what they're doing. If I'm walking by Freddy's guard post and he's not there I am responsible for finding out why he isn't where he's suppose to be. So I do believe it's fair to hold Meredith responsible for the actions of her templars as she should have known what they were doing. Now I do believe the blame diminishes the further removed from her they are. The Knight Commander can't watch every single new recruit but the closer to her rank they are the more responsibility I would say rest with her.

As for Orsino. Yes I do hold him responsible for what the circle blood mages did. Mind you I don't mean the wild blood mages that came into the city I mean the ones he's in charge of. The fact that he lent books on necromancy to a crazy blood mage using living humans like lab rats should carry as severe of a punishment for him as Alrik's actions should for Meredith.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Circles are big places. I wouldn't presume to know the face of every single Tranquil. Therefore I can't demand of Meredith to do the same. Hell not even Orsino seemed to notice otherwise he would ahve taken the matter to Meredith. If Orsino did notice, then he didn't take the matter to Meredith. And then Orsino is to blame for the Alrik being allowed to advance his agenda.

I don't agree. These aren't random people. These are people that she works around and in a sense lives with every day. I've known college professors that had classes of 300 students and took the time to learn all our faces and names in the first two weeks of class. So I consider it well within Meredith's ability and her responsibility to know the names and faces of those she's suppose to be protecting at the very least. Plus such knowledge would leave her better equipped to protect the city as well. Once you learn to recognize everyone it's a lot easier to recognize when they're missing.

As for Orsino not noticing. From what I've seen of them Meredith and Orsino don't like one another. How do you know he didn't bring such issues up to her but she chose not to believe him? Would he even consider it worth trying? She seemed quite neutral whenever she learned he had survived the qunari attack and we see that she's willing to murder/tranquil mages at random as a form of group punishment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That's not really how it works though. You as a superior officer are not responsible for the actions of your subordinates while they are off-duty. And even when they are on-duty you are only responsible for their actions if you consent them, or know about them without preventing them.
There is no evidence that Meredith knew anyhting about what Alrik was doing. So holding her responsible for Alrik's actions are not fair. Unless you therefore agree that we should hold Orsino responsible for every Blood Mage in the Circle aswell. At least then you are fair in your judgement.

You said it yourself I am responsible for what they do on duty. It is also my business as their superior to know what they're doing. If I'm walking by Freddy's guard post and he's not there I am responsible for finding out why he isn't where he's suppose to be. So I do believe it's fair to hold Meredith responsible for the actions of her templars as she should have known what they were doing. Now I do believe the blame diminishes the further removed from her they are. The Knight Commander can't watch every single new recruit but the closer to her rank they are the more responsibility I would say rest with her.

As for Orsino. Yes I do hold him responsible for what the circle blood mages did. Mind you I don't mean the wild blood mages that came into the city I mean the ones he's in charge of. The fact that he lent books on necromancy to a crazy blood mage using living humans like lab rats should carry as severe of a punishment for him as Alrik's actions should for Meredith.

Not entirely accurate again. You are only responsible for the actions of your subordinates if you order them to do it, or if you know about it, and does not prevent it.
In the case you present of a guard not being on duty. You as his superior are not responsible for any crime the guard commited while neglecting his duty. However it is your responsiility, as his superior, to punish him for failure to uphold his duty. It is however not your responsibility to find out what he was doing while he was away. Usually finding out however, would come up in an eventual investigation into the matter. But it is not a requirement.
Therefore, in the instance of Meredith. She certainly didn't order Alrik to advance the Tranquil Solution, she actually specifically denied him, and there is no evidence suggesting she knew about what Alrik was doing. There is actually evidence that suggest that Alrik was actively trying to prevent Meredith to ever learn about it. That is why we cannot hold Meredith responsible for the actions of Alrik.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Circles are big places. I wouldn't presume to know the face of every single Tranquil. Therefore I can't demand of Meredith to do the same. Hell not even Orsino seemed to notice otherwise he would ahve taken the matter to Meredith. If Orsino did notice, then he didn't take the matter to Meredith. And then Orsino is to blame for the Alrik being allowed to advance his agenda.

I don't agree. These aren't random people. These are people that she works around and in a sense lives with every day. I've known college professors that had classes of 300 students and took the time to learn all our faces and names in the first two weeks of class. So I consider it well within Meredith's ability and her responsibility to know the names and faces of those she's suppose to be protecting at the very least. Plus such knowledge would leave her better equipped to protect the city as well. Once you learn to recognize everyone it's a lot easier to recognize when they're missing.

As for Orsino not noticing. From what I've seen of them Meredith and Orsino don't like one another. How do you know he didn't bring such issues up to her but she chose not to believe him? Would he even consider it worth trying? She seemed quite neutral whenever she learned he had survived the qunari attack and we see that she's willing to murder/tranquil mages at random as a form of group punishment.

The Tranquil are NOT some group of people Meredith works closely with every day. Meredith is the top of the chain. You don't expect some executive in a company to know the face of every employee. It is simply unreasonable. Nor do you expect an executive to make regular interviews with the lowliest employees to see if they are happy with the way things are run. Simply put, tehre is no feasible reason as to why Meredith should know the faces of every mage and tranquil in the Gallows, since he work is, while related to, not conencted to the work of the lesser mages and tranquil. Meredith probably only have meetings with the Senior Enchanters and the First Enchanter, and otherwise barely see the other mages.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not entirely accurate again. You are only responsible for the actions of your subordinates if you order them to do it, or if you know about it, and does not prevent it.
In the case you present of a guard not being on duty. You as his superior are not responsible for any crime the guard commited while neglecting his duty. However it is your responsiility, as his superior, to punish him for failure to uphold his duty. It is however not your responsibility to find out what he was doing while he was away. Usually finding out however, would come up in an eventual investigation into the matter. But it is not a requirement.
Therefore, in the instance of Meredith. She certainly didn't order Alrik to advance the Tranquil Solution, she actually specifically denied him, and there is no evidence suggesting she knew about what Alrik was doing. There is actually evidence that suggest that Alrik was actively trying to prevent Meredith to ever learn about it. That is why we cannot hold Meredith responsible for the actions of Alrik.

I don't agree and it seems I'm not the only person.

Command responsibility is an omission mode of individual criminal liability: the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish (as opposed to crimes he ordered).

http://en.wikipedia...._responsibility

Alrik is Meredith's subordinate and to my knowledge one of relatively high rank. Thus as she failed to prevent his crimes she is responsible for them as well. Though I wouldn't say to the full extent. Her failure to notice the crimes doesn't exonerate her anymore then failing to know the law. It was her responsibilty to know as his superior.

And before you claim modern thinking.

In The Art of War, written during the 6th century BC, Sun Tzu argued that it was a commander's duty to ensure that his subordinates conducted themselves in a civilised manner during an armed conflict.

It's not exactly the same but I believe a close enough aproximation.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Tranquil are NOT some group of people Meredith works closely with every day. Meredith is the top of the chain. You don't expect some executive in a company to know the face of every employee. It is simply unreasonable. Nor do you expect an executive to make regular interviews with the lowliest employees to see if they are happy with the way things are run. Simply put, tehre is no feasible reason as to why Meredith should know the faces of every mage and tranquil in the Gallows, since he work is, while related to, not conencted to the work of the lesser mages and tranquil. Meredith probably only have meetings with the Senior Enchanters and the First Enchanter, and otherwise barely see the other mages.

Meredith is the knight commander and as such she is responsible for seeing to the safety of all the mages. She isn't some executive of a company that has several branch offices in different states or even nations. To my knowledge the vast majority if not all the mages were housed within a single building as were the tranquil. So I believe it's perfectly reasonable for her to know the faces and names of all the mages there and even more then that considering they and she have been there for years.

How many mages do you imagine actually live in the gallows that would prevent her from learning their faces especially over several years? What do you believe has her so busy?

Modifié par Inprea, 11 novembre 2013 - 07:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not entirely accurate again. You are only responsible for the actions of your subordinates if you order them to do it, or if you know about it, and does not prevent it.
In the case you present of a guard not being on duty. You as his superior are not responsible for any crime the guard commited while neglecting his duty. However it is your responsiility, as his superior, to punish him for failure to uphold his duty. It is however not your responsibility to find out what he was doing while he was away. Usually finding out however, would come up in an eventual investigation into the matter. But it is not a requirement.
Therefore, in the instance of Meredith. She certainly didn't order Alrik to advance the Tranquil Solution, she actually specifically denied him, and there is no evidence suggesting she knew about what Alrik was doing. There is actually evidence that suggest that Alrik was actively trying to prevent Meredith to ever learn about it. That is why we cannot hold Meredith responsible for the actions of Alrik.

I don't agree and it seems I'm not the only person.

Command responsibility is an omission mode of individual criminal liability: the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish (as opposed to crimes he ordered).

http://en.wikipedia...._responsibility

Alrik is Meredith's subordinate and to my knowledge one of relatively high rank. Thus as she failed to prevent his crimes she is responsible for them as well. Though I wouldn't say to the full extent. Her failure to notice the crimes doesn't exonerate her anymore then failing to know the law. It was her responsibilty to know as his superior.

And before you claim modern thinking.

In The Art of War, written during the 6th century BC, Sun Tzu argued that it was a commander's duty to ensure that his subordinates conducted themselves in a civilised manner during an armed conflict.

It's not exactly the same but I believe a close enough aproximation. 

The Command Responsibility of omission is the EXACT thing I have been arguing. If you as a superior have NO KNOWELDGE WHATSOEVER that you subordinates are commiting a crime, then you as their superior oficer are not to blame. If however you have knowledge of it, and still do nothing to prevent it, then you can be charged with omission of responsibility.
And Meredith is in no way repsonsible for the actions of ALrik. Alrik was ACTIVELY keeping the knowledge of his actions from her. She had no knoweldge of what he was doing, tehrefore you can't hold her responsible. Only us, as the metagamers we are, can we say that she SHOULD have noticed anything, but that is being extremely unfair to the defendant.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Tranquil are NOT some group of people Meredith works closely with every day. Meredith is the top of the chain. You don't expect some executive in a company to know the face of every employee. It is simply unreasonable. Nor do you expect an executive to make regular interviews with the lowliest employees to see if they are happy with the way things are run. Simply put, tehre is no feasible reason as to why Meredith should know the faces of every mage and tranquil in the Gallows, since he work is, while related to, not conencted to the work of the lesser mages and tranquil. Meredith probably only have meetings with the Senior Enchanters and the First Enchanter, and otherwise barely see the other mages.

Meredith is the knight commander and as such she is responsible for seeing to the safety of all the mages. She isn't some executive of a company that has several branch offices in different states or even nations. To my knowledge the vast majority if not all the mages were housed within a single building as were the tranquil. So I believe it's perfectly reasonable for her to know the faces and names of all the mages there and even more then that considering they and she have been there for years.

How many mages do you imagine actually live in the gallows that would prevent her from learning their faces especially over several years? What do you believe has her so busy?

Actually as a Knight-Comamdner in the Free Marches she probably does have many branches to keep track of. Templars are stationed all over Thedas, not just in the Circles. Any Templar stationed in the Free Marches would fall under her command (or the Knight-Commander in Starkhaven). SO she has several hundred if not thousand people under her command, and you expect her to keep perfect track of all of them, their faces incldued? That is ludicrous demands to make. She doesn't even work closesly with the low ranking amges, she probably doesn't even work closesly with the low ranking Templars, yet you expect her to know these things??

[Medhia Nox]

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Not entirely accurate again. You are only responsible for the actions of your subordinates if you order them to do it, or if you know about it, and does not prevent it.
In the case you present of a guard not being on duty. You as his superior are not responsible for any crime the guard commited while neglecting his duty. However it is your responsiility, as his superior, to punish him for failure to uphold his duty. It is however not your responsibility to find out what he was doing while he was away. Usually finding out however, would come up in an eventual investigation into the matter. But it is not a requirement.
Therefore, in the instance of Meredith. She certainly didn't order Alrik to advance the Tranquil Solution, she actually specifically denied him, and there is no evidence suggesting she knew about what Alrik was doing. There is actually evidence that suggest that Alrik was actively trying to prevent Meredith to ever learn about it. That is why we cannot hold Meredith responsible for the actions of Alrik.

I don't agree and it seems I'm not the only person.

Command responsibility is an omission mode of individual criminal liability: the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish (as opposed to crimes he ordered).

http://en.wikipedia...._responsibility

Alrik is Meredith's subordinate and to my knowledge one of relatively high rank. Thus as she failed to prevent his crimes she is responsible for them as well. Though I wouldn't say to the full extent. Her failure to notice the crimes doesn't exonerate her anymore then failing to know the law. It was her responsibilty to know as his superior.

And before you claim modern thinking.

In The Art of War, written during the 6th century BC, Sun Tzu argued that it was a commander's duty to ensure that his subordinates conducted themselves in a civilised manner during an armed conflict.

It's not exactly the same but I believe a close enough aproximation. 

The Command Responsibility of omission is the EXACT thing I have been arguing. If you as a superior have NO KNOWELDGE WHATSOEVER that you subordinates are commiting a crime, then you as their superior oficer are not to blame. If however you have knowledge of it, and still do nothing to prevent it, then you can be charged with omission of responsibility.
And Meredith is in no way repsonsible for the actions of ALrik. Alrik was ACTIVELY keeping the knowledge of his actions from her. She had no knoweldge of what he was doing, tehrefore you can't hold her responsible. Only us, as the metagamers we are, can we say that she SHOULD have noticed anything, but that is being extremely unfair to the defendant.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Tranquil are NOT some group of people Meredith works closely with every day. Meredith is the top of the chain. You don't expect some executive in a company to know the face of every employee. It is simply unreasonable. Nor do you expect an executive to make regular interviews with the lowliest employees to see if they are happy with the way things are run. Simply put, tehre is no feasible reason as to why Meredith should know the faces of every mage and tranquil in the Gallows, since he work is, while related to, not conencted to the work of the lesser mages and tranquil. Meredith probably only have meetings with the Senior Enchanters and the First Enchanter, and otherwise barely see the other mages.

Meredith is the knight commander and as such she is responsible for seeing to the safety of all the mages. She isn't some executive of a company that has several branch offices in different states or even nations. To my knowledge the vast majority if not all the mages were housed within a single building as were the tranquil. So I believe it's perfectly reasonable for her to know the faces and names of all the mages there and even more then that considering they and she have been there for years.

How many mages do you imagine actually live in the gallows that would prevent her from learning their faces especially over several years? What do you believe has her so busy?

Actually as a Knight-Comamdner in the Free Marches she probably does have many branches to keep track of. Templars are stationed all over Thedas, not just in the Circles. Any Templar stationed in the Free Marches would fall under her command (or the Knight-Commander in Starkhaven). SO she has several hundred if not thousand people under her command, and you expect her to keep perfect track of all of them, their faces incldued? That is ludicrous demands to make. She doesn't even work closesly with the low ranking amges, she probably doesn't even work closesly with the low ranking Templars, yet you expect her to know these things??

Actually, there are 5 Circles within the Free Marches: Ansburg, Starkhaven, Markham, Ostwick, and Kirkwall. She is most definitely not in charge of all the Free Marches.

Edit: Each Circle has a Knight Commander, but they answer to the Knight Vigilant in Orlais. There is no leader of a region's entire templars.

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

She is in charge of 1/5th then. I never said she was in charge if it all, I just didn't know about the other three Circles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:20 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

She is in charge of 1/5th then. I never said she was in charge if it all, I just didn't know about the other three Circles.

Crap. My bad. I read it as "the" Knight Commander of the Free Marches instead of "A" Knight Commander of the Free Marches.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I dont know which country you live in but in my country  if a police officer  kills somebody his superior is going to be asked some very serious questions if he acted adequitely.

[dragonflight288]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I dont know which country you live in but in my country  if a police officer  kills somebody his superior is going to be asked some very serious questions if he acted adequitely.

In my line of work (Carpet Cleaner) if someone I trained was caught drinking and driving, I could easily face charges because he was under my authority, even if I wasn't in the truck at the time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I dont know which country you live in but in my country  if a police officer  kills somebody his superior is going to be asked some very serious questions if he acted adequitely.

Uhm what? I have yet to hear of a country, where a cop off-duty kills another and then his superior gets stuck with the blame.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I dont know which country you live in but in my country  if a police officer  kills somebody his superior is going to be asked some very serious questions if he acted adequitely.

In my line of work (Carpet Cleaner) if someone I trained was caught drinking and driving, I could easily face charges because he was under my authority, even if I wasn't in the truck at the time.

You wouldn't get stuck with a DUI yourself though, now would you?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:35 .

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Command Responsibility of omission is the EXACT thing I have been arguing. If you as a superior have NO KNOWELDGE WHATSOEVER that you subordinates are commiting a crime, then you as their superior oficer are not to blame. If however you have knowledge of it, and still do nothing to prevent it, then you can be charged with omission of responsibility.
And Meredith is in no way repsonsible for the actions of ALrik. Alrik was ACTIVELY keeping the knowledge of his actions from her. She had no knoweldge of what he was doing, tehrefore you can't hold her responsible. Only us, as the metagamers we are, can we say that she SHOULD have noticed anything, but that is being extremely unfair to the defendant.

Where in there does it make an exception for a lack of knowledge? The quote I posted is.

Command responsibility is an omission mode of individual criminal liability: the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish (as opposed to crimes he ordered). 

It says the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish. There is no exception made for if he knew about them or not. That is something you're trying to insert. So yes Meredith is responsible for Alrik's actions. I also find it rather funny how you haven't even mentioned Orsino after I said I would hold him responsible for the actions of the blood mages in the circle. You seemed ready to blame him for the actions of the circle blood mages. We also see evidence that they were hiding their actions from him. Does that mean you don't blame him for their actions?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She is in charge of 1/5th then. I never said she was in charge if it all, I just didn't know about the other three Circles.

1/5 being the circle she lives in. As eluvianix mentioned each circle has its own knight commander and there is no such thing as a regional knight commander. I didn't say the faces of all those she commands either. I said the faces and names of all the mages in the circle she commands which is indeed reasonable.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I doubt it but is he in charge of a military organization that makes life and death decisions for others? An employee stealing from customers can cost a business dearly. I know when I spent time working with personal information for Serco they would be severally fined for every piece of information I stole or let slip plus had the potential to suffer additional sanctions.

Modifié par Inprea, 11 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Command Responsibility of omission is the EXACT thing I have been arguing. If you as a superior have NO KNOWELDGE WHATSOEVER that you subordinates are commiting a crime, then you as their superior oficer are not to blame. If however you have knowledge of it, and still do nothing to prevent it, then you can be charged with omission of responsibility.
And Meredith is in no way repsonsible for the actions of ALrik. Alrik was ACTIVELY keeping the knowledge of his actions from her. She had no knoweldge of what he was doing, tehrefore you can't hold her responsible. Only us, as the metagamers we are, can we say that she SHOULD have noticed anything, but that is being extremely unfair to the defendant.

Where in there does it make an exception for your lack of knowledge? Then quote I posted is. 

In the actual application of the law?

Inprea wrote...

Command responsibility is an omission mode of individual criminal liability: the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish (as opposed to crimes he ordered). 

It says the superior is responsible for crimes committed by his subordinates and for failing to prevent or punish. There is no exception made for if he knew about them or not. That is something you're trying to insert. So yes Meredith is responsible for Alrik's actions. I also find it rather funny how you haven't even mentioned Orsino after I said I would hold him responsible for the actions of the blood mages in the circle. You seemed ready to blame him for the actions of the circle blood mages. We also see evidence that they were hiding their actions from him. Does that mean you don't blame him for their actions?

Quoting two lines of a 400 lines Law with several different factors and pararaphs, is not exactly an accurate depiction of the law, especially when the quote you selected is incredibly selective, and does not capture the spirit of the law.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
She is in charge of 1/5th then. I never said she was in charge if it all, I just didn't know about the other three Circles.

1/5 being the circle she lives in. As eluvianix mentioned each circle has its own knight commander and there is no such thing as a regional knight commander. I didn't say the faces of all those she commands either. I said the faces and names of all the mages in the circle she commands which is indeed reasonable.

And as I mentioned, there are Templars outside of the Circles aswell. These Templars also fall under her juridstiction (depending on where in the Free Marches they are). And yes, it is extremely unreasonable to demand such a thing from her. Especially since she probably enver even meets any of them. Her day-to-day work does not require her to meet them. YOu are demanding something better suited for subordinate Templars. And even then, these Templars should only familiarize themselves with a handful of the amges under their charge.
And yes, Templars in Kaiten for isntance (another Free Marcher town), would be subordinate to one of the Knight-Commanders stationed in one of the Circles. According to your demands, then the Knight-Commander responsible for these Templars, should know the face of the entire town's inhabitants.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I doubt it but is he in charge of a military organization that makes life and death decisions for others? An employee stealing from customers can cost a business dearly. I know when I spent time working with personal information for Serco they would be severally fined for every piece of information I stole or let slip plus had the potential to suffer additional sanctions.

I can guarentee you, right here, right now, that if I went on a maddened killing spree right now, that my commanding officer would NOT be held responsible for my crimes. The very notion he should is ridiculous.
However if I, in the line of duty, commited a crime, and he KNEW about it, then he would be held responsible aswell, unless he moved to prevent it. However if I in the line of duty commited a crime, and I made sure to keep it from him, then he wouldn't be held responsible for my actions.
Sure he might face reprimands of some kind (depending on the nature of the crime and the circumstances), but he would not partake in my punishment.