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[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

She might not be "responsible" for anyone's actions - but, she should absolutely take the blame for anyone under her command.

I run a business - and when ANY subordinate does something wrong, I don't place blame upon them. Certainly - they must fix their error and learn from it so that it will never occur again, but ultimately the blame falls upon me for a vast array of missteps ranging from communication to training to delegation.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

I believe Orsino was simply corrupt.

Would you take responsibility if one of your employees murdered someone? (leading question I know, but humor me)

I dont know which country you live in but in my country  if a police officer  kills somebody his superior is going to be asked some very serious questions if he acted adequitely.

Uhm what? I have yet to hear of a country, where a cop off-duty kills another and then his superior gets stuck with the blame.

on a single case? no through if you haven proven to be in negligence as a leader then any chance  of a promotion is gone.Their are more then one way to punish someone.  if you have something like kirkwall then your fired and likely face criminal charges. You cannot say Meredith was not reponsible for actions the of alrik or kerras. And this runs a bit deeper then murder, this criminal activity right under the noses of the leadership that has been going on for a while now.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Quoting two lines of a 400 lines Law with several different factors and pararaphs, is not exactly an accurate depiction of the law, especially when the quote you selected is incredibly selective, and does not capture the spirit of the law.

Quoting a few lines that do a fine job of capturing the spirit of the law is far better then making an unsupported statement. How about providing some quotes to support your view point? Also you didn't answer my question about Orsino. If Meredith isn't responsible for Alrik despite the warning signs, the whole wanting to make every mage tranquil plus the increasing number of tranquil mages in the circle, does that mean you don't blame Orsino for the increasing number of blood mages?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And as I mentioned, there are Templars outside of the Circles aswell. These Templars also fall under her juridstiction (depending on where in the Free Marches they are). And yes, it is extremely unreasonable to demand such a thing from her. Especially since she probably enver even meets any of them. Her day-to-day work does not require her to meet them. YOu are demanding something better suited for subordinate Templars. And even then, these Templars should only familiarize themselves with a handful of the amges under their charge.
And yes, Templars in Kaiten for isntance (another Free Marcher town), would be subordinate to one of the Knight-Commanders stationed in one of the Circles. According to your demands, then the Knight-Commander responsible for these Templars, should know the face of the entire town's inhabitants.

They are several differences between the mages living in the circle and the civilians in towns were templars are stationed. The mages live in the same building she lives in and works. She is responsible for protecting the mages like any other templar. She has had years to learn who these mages are in many cases. Finally the towns people have their own guards for protection. I don't exactly see the city guard walking throughout the gallows.
As for the notion that having templars stationed in other towns justifies her inattentiveness is ridiculous. Do you believe that those templars are sending her such a flood of information that she's just overwhelmed? What the heck do you believe she spends all her days doing? If the templars are as inattentive to who the mages are as you seem to believe they should be a mage could just put on some civilian clothes, walk out of the circle and they may never notice the mage left.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I can guarentee you, right here, right now, that if I went on a maddened killing spree right now, that my commanding officer would NOT be held responsible for my crimes. The very notion he should is ridiculous.
However if I, in the line of duty, commited a crime, and he KNEW about it, then he would be held responsible aswell, unless he moved to prevent it. However if I in the line of duty commited a crime, and I made sure to keep it from him, then he wouldn't be held responsible for my actions.
Sure he might face reprimands of some kind (depending on the nature of the crime and the circumstances), but he would not partake in my punishment.

Care to guess what your guarantee is worth? Your superior officer may not be charged with the same crime but there is still criminal negligence. If a court resolved that he has reason to suspect you might perform such an action and didn't intervene he could face serious consequences. So yes he would carry some responsibility as I, dragon, Medhia and DK have said. This holds even more weight for Meredith as she is responsible for protecting the mages as well as protecting mundanes from mages. It's part of her job to insure they're not being abused.

Now if you were on a jury you may not be willing to find her guilty. I on the other hand would and I'm pretty sure dragon, Medhia and DK would. Which thank goodness we're not setting in the back of a courtroom having to come to an agreement as I'm pretty sure this would get ugly or the judge would just dismiss us and find a different jury.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

on a single case? no through if you haven proven to be in negligence as a leader then any chance  of a promotion is gone.Their are more then one way to punish someone.  if you have something like kirkwall then your fired and likely face criminal charges. You cannot say Meredith was not reponsible for actions the of alrik or kerras. And this runs a bit deeper then murder, this criminal activity right under the noses of the leadership that has been going on for a while now. 

Of course I can say that. It is what I have been saying the entire time, and I stand by my statement.

If a sergeant is being abusive, you don't fire the colonel for the actions of the Sergeant. If anything a lieutenant or a captain might face some charges, but the colonel is waaaaaaaay to high up the chain of command to ever be blamed for it.
Same goes for Meredith. Ser Alrik is at most a Knight-Lieutenant, which is one of the lesser ranks amongst Templars. He might be even lower, since he doesn't call himself by that rank. In any case, Meredith is not his immediate superior, so this entire statement, that Meredith should pay for Alrik's actions is even MORE ridiculous than I intially realized...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Quoting two lines of a 400 lines Law with several different factors and pararaphs, is not exactly an accurate depiction of the law, especially when the quote you selected is incredibly selective, and does not capture the spirit of the law.

Quoting a few lines that do a fine job of capturing the spirit of the law is far better then making an unsupported statement. How about providing some quotes to support your view point? Also you didn't answer my question about Orsino. If Meredith isn't responsible for Alrik despite the warning signs, the whole wanting to make every mage tranquil plus the increasing number of tranquil mages in the circle, does that mean you don't blame Orsino for the increasing number of blood mages? 

Which warning signs exactly was it that Meredith was supposed to notice? She doesn't ahve daily or for taht matter weekly exposure to the mages or the Tranquil. And the information of something unlawful going on, was being actively kept from her. So which EXACTLY kind of information are you demanding her to react upon?
The lines you quote, make it sound like taht nomatter the circumstances, no amtter the crime, a superior officer is ALWAYS to blame for the crimes oif his subordinates. I am telling you, as  soldier, that this is simply not true. THat is not how the army works.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And as I mentioned, there are Templars outside of the Circles aswell. These Templars also fall under her juridstiction (depending on where in the Free Marches they are). And yes, it is extremely unreasonable to demand such a thing from her. Especially since she probably enver even meets any of them. Her day-to-day work does not require her to meet them. YOu are demanding something better suited for subordinate Templars. And even then, these Templars should only familiarize themselves with a handful of the amges under their charge.
And yes, Templars in Kaiten for isntance (another Free Marcher town), would be subordinate to one of the Knight-Commanders stationed in one of the Circles. According to your demands, then the Knight-Commander responsible for these Templars, should know the face of the entire town's inhabitants.

They are several differences between the mages living in the circle and the civilians in towns were templars are stationed. The mages live in the same building she lives in and works. She is responsible for protecting the mages like any other templar. She has had years to learn who these mages are in many cases. Finally the towns people have their own guards for protection. I don't exactly see the city guard walking throughout the gallows.
As for the notion that having templars stationed in other towns justifies her inattentiveness is ridiculous. Do you believe that those templars are sending her such a flood of information that she's just overwhelmed? What the heck do you believe she spends all her days doing? If the templars are as inattentive to who the mages are as you seem to believe they should be a mage could just put on some civilian clothes, walk out of the circle and they may never notice the mage left.

So should a City Guard know the faces of the entire population of the town he is assigned to protect? In a Circle of several hundred if not a thousand mages, you would be hard pressed to notice a new Tranquil. Especially if you don't socialize with the mages, which Templars don't. Those few Templars who knew about the unlawful tranquilizations were either intimidated to silence, or an accomplice of Alrik. And the Gallows being the Gallows, I'd imagine that if a mage were to protest it would fall on deaf ears (now if Meredith ever got such a complaint and did nothing, then there would be a case).

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I can guarentee you, right here, right now, that if I went on a maddened killing spree right now, that my commanding officer would NOT be held responsible for my crimes. The very notion he should is ridiculous.
However if I, in the line of duty, commited a crime, and he KNEW about it, then he would be held responsible aswell, unless he moved to prevent it. However if I in the line of duty commited a crime, and I made sure to keep it from him, then he wouldn't be held responsible for my actions.
Sure he might face reprimands of some kind (depending on the nature of the crime and the circumstances), but he would not partake in my punishment.

Care to guess what your guarantee is worth? Your superior officer may not be charged with the same crime but there is still criminal negligence. If a court resolved that he has reason to suspect you might perform such an action and didn't intervene he could face serious consequences. So yes he would carry some responsibility as I, dragon, Medhia and DK have said. This holds even more weight for Meredith as she is responsible for protecting the mages as well as protecting mundanes from mages. It's part of her job to insure they're not being abused. 

There most certainly is not a case of criminal negligence. You might at best look at a case of strict liability, but even that might be stretching it.
And again, if my superior officer KNEW I was doing something illegal, or was about to, and did nothing to prevent it, then YES then he could get an omission of responsibility case. He still wouldn't be the one to blame for my actions though.

Inprea wrote...
Now if you were on a jury you may not be willing to find her guilty. I on the other hand would and I'm pretty sure dragon, Medhia and DK would. Which thank goodness we're not setting in the back of a courtroom having to come to an agreement as I'm pretty sure this would get ugly or the judge would just dismiss us and find a different jury.

To be hoenst, I don't think anyone on BSN ever debate i an attempt to reach consensus.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: Sorry I didn't answer earlier - but, did my worker write a manifesto asking for permission first which I denied, but otherwise did nothing about?

[Xilizhra]

Same goes for Meredith. Ser Alrik is at most a Knight-Lieutenant, which is one of the lesser ranks amongst Templars.

This is blatantly wrong. The templar rank system isn't that extensive, and I know of no rank between knight-lieutenant and knight-captain, the second-in-command. And you can tell that Alrik is that because of his pauldrons. Additionally, he clearly has enough authority to order other lieutenants around, as seen with Ser Bardel in Tranquility.

[Lord Raijin]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Try canings, or lashes, or quarterings, or the rack, or having hot coals force fed to them. You know, things that happened to just regular people in the dark and middle ages when people didn't like them. Hell, I'd say what zevren went through from the crows is 100 times worse then anything a mage has gone through, excluding tranquility.

If Non-mages are willing to do what you just described to other (regular) people simple because they didn't like them well how are the mages even close to being this dangerous when it is the non-mages who are far more prune to violent type of behavior against their own peers? Shouldn't they be thrown into the Circle where they can't hurt another person? The situation with Zevren further proves my point. The Crows are a bunch of criminals who became far more powerful than they should have, and essentially rules Antiva. These are thieves, spies and cold blooded assassins who have no moral respect for human life. They're Non-mages (I haven't seen a mage crow member yet) too on top it off.

It's incompetent because the first enchanter knew there was blood magic being used, an illegal art that is no secret to anyone, a bad art of magic that can lead to abominations and outright demon materialization to happen, and allowed it to go on unpunished, and in fact protected those who he knew practiced blood magic. It's his fault because he let a few bad apples be spared, and made it so that every mage who wasn't a blood mage had to suffer as well. He not only encourgaed weak links and corrupt mages, but willingly let non-blood mages suffer for it. Orsino is scum, who sold out some mages so that others could keep fighting the templars when it was his job to stop the fighters in the first place.

The Knight-Commander was nothing but than a deranged war monger who takes everything out on the mages for what happen to her family back then. She pushed the mages to use the forbidden art of blood magic to use as a last resort. Orsino made some mistakes, yes, but the chunk of it was caused by the excessive pressure that Meredith put on him. Call him whatever you want but the real scum is Ethina and Meredith for what they've done to Kirkwall. Both are equally incompetent, especially Elthina who didn't do jack crap about her mentally ill PTSD Knight-Commander.

Blaming meredith for the increase of blood magic is like blaming the police for the increase of crime. It's their job to stop mage crime, and criminal activity was being commited by mages. The increased harsh treatment we see in act 3 is over the line, yeah, but that was due to her getting the idol. Look at the screwed up things it made bartrand do, and he didn't have it as long as meredith had. In act 1 and 2 meredith's rule along with those of the templars seem pretty much tame, the circle seems in okay shape, and yet we still see more blood mages trying to either take over the city or cause mass destruction then we do templars abusing their authority. Bethany even comments the circle isn't as bad as she thought it would be, and she has the most reason to find any sort of restriction on her rights disagreeable.

If the police were going around arresting and taking people to jail because of the color of their skin, yes, crime will definitely go on a rise because people aren't going to sit around and do nothing while discrimination is being taken place. Same goes for Templars and mages. The fact that templar support from the public perception has been declining over the years should tells you a lot. Templars use to get a warm welcome to peoples homes to now getting the door slammed on them is crucial compelling evidence that the public is getting fed up with the Templars, and that the mages support.

I not only blame Meredith but also the Grand Cleric. Shes not only suppose to represent the Chantry in her region, but also in charge of her templars, and she failed at that by allowing her Knight-Commander get away with murder. She was a spoiled rotten little kid.

Edited....

As far as Bethany goes I wouldn't exactly use her as an example of how good the Circle is when you read stuffs like this:

     Anders: The Rite of Tranquility is the whole problem. If they didn't have that to hold over us, we'd have so many more options.
    Bethany: Right! If we want to fight back... or just engage in intelligent debate... they make sure we can't do it.
    Anders: They're forcing our hands. There's no way to change things peacefully.
    Bethany: There must be something.
    Anders: If it's Tranquility or death, we have no choice but to make every confrontation a life-or-death struggle.
    Bethany: I know, but... there are good people in the Circle, the Chantry. There has to be a way to reason with them.
    Anders: Not if they take away your ability to reason.

Bethany has only been in the Circle for a short amount of time, and she is the full sibling of the champion of Kirkwall so she probably recieves special treatment. If something bad  happen to her while she was in the Circle the champion of Kirkwall would not be too happy, and neither would the city that backs him/her up.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:46 .

[Hilarystamp]

Why is it only the mages being forced into these towers why more than half of them have done nothing wrong. Nine time out of ten it's the stupid people without magic who are dangerous. Look at Hawke and Bethany. No circle training and are still powerful and disciplined mages. The Templars are the ones causing problems. They know they can get away with anything. And how can you not blame Meredith for increased problems with the mages. She even says not one Mage can be trusted. The only reason she doesn't lock Mage Hawke up is because the people would riot against her. Her stupidity and lack of understanding is what caused more mages to fight back.

[Hilarystamp]

Lord Raijin........ Bethany says that before she even gets put into the circle, because yes there are probably good people in the circle and Chanty but if they are not willing to speak out of protect the mages. How are they any better than the bad people.... And if you do the play through where Bethany get locked away. In the end battle she says she know now why she must free her people. Even if she got some special treatment, which I'm sure she did, she still witnessed the crimes and hatred towards mages. The circle does not work.

[Lord Raijin]

Hilarystamp wrote...

Lord Raijin........ Bethany says that before she even gets put into the circle, because yes there are probably good people in the circle and Chanty but if they are not willing to speak out of protect the mages. How are they any better than the bad people.... And if you do the play through where Bethany get locked away. In the end battle she says she know now why she must free her people. Even if she got some special treatment, which I'm sure she did, she still witnessed the crimes and hatred towards mages. The circle does not work.

I only play as a mage, not as a rogue nor a warrior so I never had the choice of having Bethany as my companion, since she takes a dirt nap. As The Flying Grey Warden stated Bethany acknowledge that the Circle isn't so bad... well that is clearly an ignorant statement considering the history that we know of her father and mother, and how he escaped from the Circle to be with his non-mage lover. Had he not had escaped Bethany, Carver and Hawke would cease to exist since raising a family within the Circle is strictly prohibited, and the templars are very valiant at stuffs like that. I guess the Circle forgot to inform of her about that rule.

The Circle would only work if the Chantry wasn't involved and it shouldn't be either. In fact I do not believe that the mages are even anti Circle only anti Chantry controled Circles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz: Sorry I didn't answer earlier - but, did my worker write a manifesto asking for permission first which I denied, but otherwise did nothing about? 

Even if he had, freedom of speech would prevent you from doing aynthing meaningful about it. 
Alrik was making a professional suggestion, no matter how misguided it was, and it was treated as such.

Xilizhra wrote...

Same goes for Meredith. Ser Alrik is at most a Knight-Lieutenant, which is one of the lesser ranks amongst Templars.

This is blatantly wrong. The templar rank system isn't that extensive, and I know of no rank between knight-lieutenant and knight-captain, the second-in-command. And you can tell that Alrik is that because of his pauldrons. Additionally, he clearly has enough authority to order other lieutenants around, as seen with Ser Bardel in Tranquility.

Don't put too much into the armor. otherwsie judging by the pauldrons of Knight-Captain Cullen, then he is actually a Knight-Lieutenant. 
And either way, that the Knight-Captain (which we have no idea wether there are only one of or not) is the next rank, does not mean at all that the Knight-Lieutenant is a high rank. It just means there is a massive powerspike in the chain of command. Knight-Lieutenant is probably the lowest commissioned officer rank in the Templar Order wielding little power over others than the group of Templars they are assigned to. The sheer amount of them that we encounter indicates that it is not a high rank.

[Xilizhra]

Don't put too much into the armor. otherwsie judging by the pauldrons of Knight-Captain Cullen, then he is actually a Knight-Lieutenant.

It just means that one is of a higher rank than the regular templars.

And either way, that the Knight-Captain (which we have no idea wether there are only one of or not) is the next rank

People always refer to Cullen as "the" Knight-Captain. There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence that there's another.

The sheer amount of them that we encounter indicates that it is not a high rank.

Not in and of itself, perhaps, but remember that Alrik can command other lieutenants. Perhaps there's some other kind of advanced lieutenant rank that he belongs to.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Usually the rank of Lieutenant is split up into two ranks, a junior and a senior. Usually however there is no real need for the distinction, since you wouldn't put more than one Lieutenant in a Platoon anyway. But obviously Templars do not adhere to our world's military ranks, so it is hard to say for certain how it works.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Inprea wrote...
Well I don't know about the others but my reason for disliking Meredith even before act three and believing she's responsibility for the ill treatment of the mages is her position within the templars themselves. Now the templars are a military order with a clear chain of command. Up to a point. To me this means that the higher up you are the more people you're responsible for and you carry some of the blaim for their actions.

Take for example a field commander with six subordinates. Let's say I'm that commander. If we're in an occupied nation and Freddy, a soldier under my command, goes and rapes Jacky then I am responsible for that rape as well and should have to attone for it.

Only up to a point... a very small point.

I detest that way of thinking, as it basicly shifts responsiblity.
One man cannot be held responsible for the actions of another.
And one man cannot be in 20 places at the same time, cannot see all, cannot know all.

Hell, we have soldiers doing war crimes TODAY - when we have handy things of keeping track - like radios, sattelites, advanced communications and cammeras - and CSI to gather evidence and determine guilt.

Just how much harder woudl it be to do the same in the middle ages? Exponentially harder.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote..

But there is plenty of evidence that can be gathered just by walking around the Gallows and listening to the Tranquil, and Meredith lives there.

Which you get to her because of your special status as PLAYER.
Because CLEARLY people normally just start talking about the most intimate and shamefull things to total strangers.

Most ambient conversations are there for atmosphere, with no regards as to how they tie in to the world or narrative. Ya know...like the templar casually asking you if you've seen any mages - while you are a mage flinging fireballs at bandits falling from the sky.

BUT, we can present the evidence to both Cullen and Elthina, and neither of them are even interested in what Alrik was doing and more interested in how Hawke came to have that evidence, which they should've, especially so in Cullen's case. But they show a total disregard in how Hawke got that evidence and how much leeway Alrik had in the first place. Heck, Cullen even says he won't ask how Hawke got the evidence, which in turn is him not doing his job of investigating the murder of a templar.

Contradiction much?
You say Cullen was only interested in how Hawke came to that evidence, only to say he won't ask how you got it?
Isn't that proof enough he cares about mages not being mistreated?

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And yes, Templars in Kaiten for isntance (another Free Marcher town), would be subordinate to one of the Knight-Commanders stationed in one of the Circles. According to your demands, then the Knight-Commander responsible for these Templars, should know the face of the entire town's inhabitants.

Let's not forget that some peoeple are really bad at rememebering faces or names.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Anders: Not if they take away your ability to reason.

Except they don't.
Because tranquil can reason very well.

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

Even if I were willing to excuse Meredith - I would still oust her on grounds of incompetency. She allowed blood mages to run rampant - she allowed someone who suggested the Tranquil Solution to remain in a position of power - and worst of all, she let her own history cloud her judgement.

So what?

[Xilizhra]

Which you get to her because of your special status as PLAYER.
Because CLEARLY people normally just start talking about the most intimate and shamefull things to total strangers.

Tranquil don't have shame. And they're not talking to you because you matter to them, the conversations are wholly random.

Except they don't.
Because tranquil can reason very well.

Half of their mental faculties have been ripped out; their ability to think is badly stunted.

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

I have no idea where you got anything from your second sentence on, and Bethany was A. both watched out for by Cullen, and B. in possession of a major inferiority complex and sort of a desire to be told what to do more.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which you get to her because of your special status as PLAYER.
Because CLEARLY people normally just start talking about the most intimate and shamefull things to total strangers.

Tranquil don't have shame. And they're not talking to you because you matter to them, the conversations are wholly random.

Exactly.
And tranquil or not, they still have no reason to talk to you or tell you anything.

Half of their mental faculties have been ripped out; their ability to think is badly stunted.

The lead writer disagrees with you.

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

I have no idea where you got anything from your second sentence on, and Bethany was A. both watched out for by Cullen, and B. in possession of a major inferiority complex and sort of a desire to be told what to do more.

Because anyone who doesn't condemn the Circles is a glutton for self-punishment?
Oh blanket statements, how I missed you!

[Xilizhra]

Exactly.
And tranquil or not, they still have no reason to talk to you or tell you anything.

Well, for whatever reason, they do. Take it up with the writers.

The lead writer disagrees with you.

No he doesn't. He and I were speaking of different things.

Because anyone who doesn't condemn the Circles is a glutton for self-punishment?
Oh blanket statements, how I missed you!

Not anyone. Some are just selfish, others are just terrified. I was referring to Bethany specifically.

[Hilarystamp]

SO WHAT! Meredith purposely allowed things to happen to the mages because she felt there was no other option. She pretty much found all mages to be weak and nog worth the time.

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except they don't.
Because tranquil can reason very well.

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

What is reason? Let's checkout the definition so we can both be on the same page.
http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/reason
a fact, condition, or situation that makes it proper or appropriate to do something, feel something, etc.

Tranquil Karl was not acting within reason when he aided the templars to capture his beast friend and former lover. Karl in his tempoary state of mind he would of never had done what he did (as tranquil) because it was not the appropriate thing to do, to snitch on your best friend. He was far more reasonable when he was back in his former self for a period of time.

You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

[Hilarystamp]

Bethany in the end finds the circle to be broken....so to speak.....and realizes she must help her people. When first entering the circle she was just happy to be somewhere she did have to hide.

[Hilarystamp]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except they don't.
Because tranquil can reason very well.

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

What is reason? Let's checkout the definition so we can both be on the same page.
http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/reason
a fact, condition, or situation that makes it proper or appropriate to do something, feel something, etc.

Tranquil Karl was not acting within reason when he aided the templars to capture his beast friend and former lover. Karl in his tempoary state of mind he would of never had done what he did (as tranquil) because it was not the appropriate thing to do, to snitch on your best friend. He was far more reasonable when he was back in his former self for a period of time.


You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

.    Exactly......when a Mage in made tranquil they are pretty much made into mindless slaves. Like the one who works for Meredith. She said she was single minded. That is not reasoning.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

Yes you can. You just reason differently.

It is irrelevant if he would have made a different decision if he were not tranqul. Variables change. He might have made a different decision for a host of other reasons too.