1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Bethany didn't find the Circle horrible. It takes a lot of convincing (and what looks like MC) for her to fight. Adn that's saying a lot given that Kirkwall si the worst Circle ever.

I have no idea where you got anything from your second sentence on, and Bethany was A. both watched out for by Cullen, and B. in possession of a major inferiority complex and sort of a desire to be told what to do more.

Bethany's letter from the Circle

Dear Hawke,
I hope this letter finds you well. My time in the Circle has been
bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through
the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of
possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with.
I've started mentoring apprentices. I enjoy time with the
children, teaching them basic spells. One of them, Ella, has taken a
shine to me. Adorable!
Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly
polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme
views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but
I'll steer clear of him!
I'm doing fine! Please don't worry about me.
With love,

Bethany

Ser Alrik is known to make mages that already passed their harrowing tranquil for the sole purpose to turn them into sex slaves. At any given moment Bethany could've been his next target.

And once again the templars are showing their paranoid schizoprenic behaviors by thinking that this woman was at risk for possession. I mean thats laughable considering the fact that she went this far without turning into an abomination.

I would fricken pay to see them try to pull the same stunt like they did with Bethany on someone like Morrigan.

The Templars refuse to acknowledge that mages can prevent possession without their assistant, and it bothers them too. The Harrowing is a joke.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Hilarystamp]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

Yes you can. You just reason differently.

It is irrelevant if he would have made a different decision if he were not tranqul. Variables change. He might have made a different decision for a host of other reasons too.

ok let's look at it this way.    Ser Alrik  tells Ella that when he makes her tranquil she will do whatever he commands. How can you possibly say that allowing someone to do unthinkable acts on you and you just say yes sir as reasoning. They do not reason they do what they are told.   Two very different things.   

[Lord Raijin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

Yes you can. You just reason differently.

It is irrelevant if he would have made a different decision if he were not tranqul. Variables change. He might have made a different decision for a host of other reasons too.

By what definition or from a legit source? Explain to me why Karl, in tranquil mode, decided that it was within reason to snitch on his friend and lead the templars to him? He would've NEVER had done this to him had he been himself. In fact he begged his friend to kill him because death was far better than to become a templar servent.

[Hilarystamp]

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

[TK514]

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

Hardly. All templars belong to the same organization. Quentin and Tahrone are lone actors. And the organization itself is institutionally flawed in a manner that gives power to those like Meredith and Alrik as a matter of policy.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote..

But there is plenty of evidence that can be gathered just by walking around the Gallows and listening to the Tranquil, and Meredith lives there.

Which you get to her because of your special status as PLAYER.
Because CLEARLY people normally just start talking about the most intimate and shamefull things to total strangers.

Most ambient conversations are there for atmosphere, with no regards as to how they tie in to the world or narrative. Ya know...like the templar casually asking you if you've seen any mages - while you are a mage flinging fireballs at bandits falling from the sky.

Hawke overhears them. There's the one mage who sees his lover/girlfriend and Hawke overhears them, and she tells her former boyfriend that she belongs to Alrik now. That isn't npc's telling Hawke personal information, that's Hawke eavesdropping on two people who already knew each other.

And your second paragraph has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the fact that Meredith lived there and had a duty to investigate the increased number of Tranquil mages, including the Harrowed ones. And a simple walk around the Gallows courtyard would've given her all the evidence needed to hold Alrik accountable, fired, and quite likely sent to Aveline to be jailed. The simple fact that she did not is criminal negligeance, and in modern armies, that alone would be enough to get her court marshaled, fired and put in prison herself.

BUT, we can present the evidence to both Cullen and Elthina, and neither of them are even interested in what Alrik was doing and more interested in how Hawke came to have that evidence, which they should've, especially so in Cullen's case. But they show a total disregard in how Hawke got that evidence and how much leeway Alrik had in the first place. Heck, Cullen even says he won't ask how Hawke got the evidence, which in turn is him not doing his job of investigating the murder of a templar.

Contradiction much?
You say Cullen was only interested in how Hawke came to that evidence, only to say he won't ask how you got it?
Isn't that proof enough he cares about mages not being mistreated?

Not really. Cullen and Elthina both express disbelief that Hawke has the evidence, and neither of them really react at all to what Alrik had been doing. It's almost like (and this isn't proof) that they both already knew.

Cullen and Elthina both state they won't ask how Hawke came by his knowledge and evidence, but both show way more interested in how Hawke got that evidence.

That isn't proof that they're concerned about mages, it's more likely that it's them being suspcisious that Hawke had done something illegal or was involved in Alrik's death in some way.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
You cannot reason if your emotions are stripped away.

Yes you can. You just reason differently.

It is irrelevant if he would have made a different decision if he were not tranqul. Variables change. He might have made a different decision for a host of other reasons too.

By what definition or from a legit source? Explain to me why Karl, in tranquil mode, decided that it was within reason to snitch on his friend and lead the templars to him? He would've NEVER had done this to him had he been himself. In fact he begged his friend to kill him because death was far better than to become a templar servent.

Tranquility does allow one to reason, but only at its most extreme points. Having no emotions allows one to pursue things without being clouded by emotions, to pursue thins logically. Not to say that pursuing things logically is any better. And in regards to Karl, having no emotions meant that he lost his attachment to Anders, so he had no reason to protect him any longer.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

Hardly. All templars belong to the same organization. Quentin and Tahrone are lone actors. And the organization itself is institutionally flawed in a manner that gives power to those like Meredith and Alrik as a matter of policy.

But we still cannot hold all Templars accountable for some of the idiots who happen to be at the top of the Order.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: You have a serious double standard.

[Xilizhra]

But we still cannot hold all Templars accountable for some of the idiots who happen to be at the top of the Order.

No, but we can and must hold them accountable when they carry out the orders of those at the top, when those orders are atrocities, as they frequently are.

[Hilarystamp]

How is just standing by and watching things happen and not speaking or acting against them any better than those who commit the acts. Towards the end Cullen says he thought he would never go against the order again but then starts to have doubts about but does absolutely nothing until it is too late.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

Hardly. All templars belong to the same organization. Quentin and Tahrone are lone actors. And the organization itself is institutionally flawed in a manner that gives power to those like Meredith and Alrik as a matter of policy.

Quite easy to substitute Uldred (doh!) and Orsino.  So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.  Clearly Mages lack the wisdom to elect leaders who won't kill them or turn them into abominations.

Edited to remove surprisingly underserved accusations against Arthur's father.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

Hardly. All templars belong to the same organization. Quentin and Tahrone are lone actors. And the organization itself is institutionally flawed in a manner that gives power to those like Meredith and Alrik as a matter of policy.

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino.  So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

Uther Pendragon?

[Xilizhra]

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: Freedom of speech would not stop me from reporting his request to the authorities, informing all of my workers of the situation and informing them of the power they possess to protect their safety and informing him that not only was his request unacceptable that is has seriously and legally impacted upon his position under my employ.

Meredith just seems to have said: "No, you can't wipe out the mages. Carry on."

She cannot be excused for her utter incompetence - regardless, perhaps especially, if that incompetence was driven by her being blinded by her emotions.

I would never excuse ANY mage for choosing blood magic, becoming an abomination or holding a rebellion for the vast array of reasons given on these boards.  I'm hardly going to gloss over the iniquities of the Templars - and they are many. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:36 .

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

Hardly. All templars belong to the same organization. Quentin and Tahrone are lone actors. And the organization itself is institutionally flawed in a manner that gives power to those like Meredith and Alrik as a matter of policy.

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino.  So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

Uther Pendragon?

Err *cough*  No.  No.  I don't think he ever turned into a pride demon, as such.  Though pride was his downfall... 

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

Only if you play the game wrong. In the mage ending, all the mages in question are already dead. Even in the templar ending, he says that everyone who died died willingly.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

Only if you play the game wrong. In the mage ending, all the mages in question are already dead. Even in the templar ending, he says that everyone who died died willingly.

I don't think the ones sacrificed would quite agree with that assessment.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orsino does the same thing in either ending so the impression I got was that he was just trying to take everyone down with him.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:43 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think the ones sacrificed would quite agree with that assessment.

Impossible to say, but it's irrelevant to both our playthroughs and Bioware's.

Orsino does the same thing in either ending so the impression I got was that he was just trying to take everyone down with him.

Everyone, or just the templars?

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, all we do, on both sides, is to continually perpetuate this cycle of hatred between the two groups, and it always leads to death and pain.