1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, all we do, on both sides, is to continually perpetuate this cycle of hatred between the two groups, and it always leads to death and pain.

That's because one side is devoted to the concept and continues to perpetuate it. The only way for the war to end is to crush the templars. The current system cannot be reinstated; a new solution must be found, and that in itself is a defeat of the templars.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Everyone, or just the templars?

I don't think he cared by that point. He just wanted to make sure he'd be avenged.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Everyone, or just the templars?

I don't think he cared by that point. He just wanted to make sure he'd be avenged.

Sadly impossible to say.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

Only if you play the game wrong. In the mage ending, all the mages in question are already dead. Even in the templar ending, he says that everyone who died died willingly.

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz: Freedom of speech would not stop me from reporting his request to the authorities, informing all of my workers of the situation and informing them of the power they possess to protect their safety and informing him that not only was his request unacceptable that is has seriously and legally impacted upon his position under my employ.

Meredith just seems to have said: "No, you can't wipe out the mages. Carry on."

She cannot be excused for her utter incompetence - regardless, perhaps especially, if that incompetence was driven by her being blinded by her emotions.

I would never excuse ANY mage for choosing blood magic, becoming an abomination or holding a rebellion for the vast array of reasons given on these boards.  I'm hardly going to gloss over the iniquities of the Templars - and they are many. 

You see to me, this just sounds like a whole bunch of metagaming. Your knowledge of the result is influencing how you wold react to the situation.
If I were to ask my superior officer to take radical actions, he wouldn't report me to every living soul on sweet mother earth. He actually most likely would just say "**** no ******, now do as you are told".
The situation in Kirkwall was extreme. The size of the Circle had doubled in three years (no doubt a result of the influx of mages from Starkhaven), as such extreme ideas and measures to handle the situation are to be expected.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

I doubt he has a reason to lie at that point. But it makes no difference to my game.

[Jaison1986]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, all we do, on both sides, is to continually perpetuate this cycle of hatred between the two groups, and it always leads to death and pain.

That's because one side is devoted to the concept and continues to perpetuate it. The only way for the war to end is to crush the templars. The current system cannot be reinstated; a new solution must be found, and that in itself is a defeat of the templars.

This reminds me of an quote  I heard in Yakuza 3. An old man says to the protagonist that in war, the opposing side must be utterly obliterated, otherwise, the survivors will hold grudges and want revenge one way or the other, so in order to have an permanent victory, you can't leave survivors.

It's kind of like Anders says: Mages are born every day. You can't stop that. But Templars, they are an ideal created by man, and ideals can be unmade.

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, all we do, on both sides, is to continually perpetuate this cycle of hatred between the two groups, and it always leads to death and pain.

That's because one side is devoted to the concept and continues to perpetuate it. The only way for the war to end is to crush the templars. The current system cannot be reinstated; a new solution must be found, and that in itself is a defeat of the templars.

This reminds me of an quote  I heard in Yakuza 3. An old man says to the protagonist that in war, the opposing side must be utterly obliterated, otherwise, the survivors will hold grudges and want revenge one way or the other, so in order to have an permanent victory, you can't leave survivors.

It's kind of like Anders says: Mages are born every day. You can't stop that. But Templars, they are an ideal created by man, and ideals can be unmade.

All this reminds me of this.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he actually did.

Even if he was backed into a corner, all Orsino did was validate what the Templars feared even more. And that hardly excuses Uldred's actions either.

Uldred may have been a slimeball personally, but so was Bhelen. The only difference is that Uldred failed where Bhelen succeeded. And all templar prophecies thus far have been self-fulfilling.

Self-fulfilling prophecy or no, all we do, on both sides, is to continually perpetuate this cycle of hatred between the two groups, and it always leads to death and pain.

That's because one side is devoted to the concept and continues to perpetuate it. The only way for the war to end is to crush the templars. The current system cannot be reinstated; a new solution must be found, and that in itself is a defeat of the templars.

I pray that we do not have to annihilate every Templar to get our point across. If it comes to that, if it is the only way, so be it. But at the same time, I will fight to find a way to remake the Order without sacrificing everyone that is in it now, without holding everyone accountable.

[Xilizhra]

I pray that we do not have to annihilate every Templar to get our point across. If it comes to that, if it is the only way, so be it. But at the same time, I will fight to find a way to remake the Order without sacrificing everyone that is in it now, without holding everyone accountable.

You'd have to remake it as a completely different organization for any of it to work well.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

I doubt he has a reason to lie at that point. But it makes no difference to my game.

Of course he has a reason to lie.  He's lying to himself in an attempt to justify what he's done and what he's about to do.

[Xilizhra]

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

I doubt he has a reason to lie at that point. But it makes no difference to my game.

Of course he has a reason to lie.  He's lying to himself in an attempt to justify what he's done and what he's about to do.

Not something that he needed in the mage ending, so it seems unlikely.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

I doubt he has a reason to lie at that point. But it makes no difference to my game.

Of course he has a reason to lie.  He's lying to himself in an attempt to justify what he's done and what he's about to do.

Not something that he needed in the mage ending, so it seems unlikely.

You've got some serious blinders on.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

I pray that we do not have to annihilate every Templar to get our point across. If it comes to that, if it is the only way, so be it. But at the same time, I will fight to find a way to remake the Order without sacrificing everyone that is in it now, without holding everyone accountable.

You'd have to remake it as a completely different organization for any of it to work well.

I hope the Inquisition can help make that possibility a reality. If not, then complete annihilation is my last resort if compromise no longer a possibility. But make no mistake, I will not suffer their Circle Towers again. We will never again suffer under their watch. That is a promise.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, we should definitely take the word of a man who murdered those who trusted him and is about to turn himself into a necromantic horror.

Definitely a trustworthy source of information.

I doubt he has a reason to lie at that point. But it makes no difference to my game.

Of course he has a reason to lie.  He's lying to himself in an attempt to justify what he's done and what he's about to do.

Not something that he needed in the mage ending, so it seems unlikely.

Xil, let us just call a spade, a spade. He killed, or used their corpses, along with blood magic. Justified or no, it still just added more fuel to the Templar's ire.

[Medhia Nox]

@EmperorSahlertz: Then your superior officer would be equally incompetent.

Also, your hyperbole doesn't do anything for me. I didn't say I'd run out into the street handing out flyers.

I would report to the authorities because of a possible crime (murder is a crime in your country yes?) and I would inform my employees because of the safety issue it represents. These people are under my leadership, if they cannot depend on that leadership - then I could hardly blame them for a vote of no confidence.

What you seem to be saying is "Protecting your own." I do not have an "own". I would not protect a fellow police officer because we're part of some ridiculous fraternal order. Nor anyone in the military, the Catholic church, or any other organization.

It is why, as a mage player - I have no problem remaining adamantly opposed to the mage rebellion.  

Ideally, my loyalty is to moral thought alone. Sadly, I have not always acted at my best, but it does not change my reaction to Meredith or Orsino (or any number of pitiful characters in these games)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[Xilizhra]

I hope the Inquisition can help make that possibility a reality. If not, then complete annihilation is my last resort if compromise no longer a possibility. But make no mistake, I will not suffer their Circle Towers again. We will never again suffer under their watch. That is a promise.

I suppose that works.

Xil, let us just call a spade, a spade. He killed, or used their corpses, along with blood magic. Justified or no, it still just added more fuel to the Templar's ire.

Only the former is morally problematic and it was still probably their own choice. The only point where it went wrong was his being unable to control the Harvester form.

[Jaison1986]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I pray that we do not have to annihilate every Templar to get our point across. If it comes to that, if it is the only way, so be it. But at the same time, I will fight to find a way to remake the Order without sacrificing everyone that is in it now, without holding everyone accountable.

You'd have to remake it as a completely different organization for any of it to work well.

I hope the Inquisition can help make that possibility a reality. If not, then complete annihilation is my last resort if compromise no longer a possibility. But make no mistake, I will not suffer their Circle Towers again. We will never again suffer under their watch. That is a promise.

If you feel that way, why not just get rid of them? If you don't want to slaughter the lot of them, maybe you will have an option to disband their order. Make their very existance an crime, like the Chantry considers the existance of apostastes an crime.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

I hope the Inquisition can help make that possibility a reality. If not, then complete annihilation is my last resort if compromise no longer a possibility. But make no mistake, I will not suffer their Circle Towers again. We will never again suffer under their watch. That is a promise.

I suppose that works.

My own backwards logic, I guess. In a nutshell, I will support compromise, unless the Templars decide not to change. If they are resistant to change, I will have no mercy.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: And will you be asking anything of the mages?

[Hellion Rex]

Jaison1986 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I pray that we do not have to annihilate every Templar to get our point across. If it comes to that, if it is the only way, so be it. But at the same time, I will fight to find a way to remake the Order without sacrificing everyone that is in it now, without holding everyone accountable.

You'd have to remake it as a completely different organization for any of it to work well.

I hope the Inquisition can help make that possibility a reality. If not, then complete annihilation is my last resort if compromise no longer a possibility. But make no mistake, I will not suffer their Circle Towers again. We will never again suffer under their watch. That is a promise.

If you feel that way, why not just get rid of them? If you don't want to slaughter the lot of them, maybe you will have an option to disband their order. Make their very existance an crime, like the Chantry considers the existance of apostastes an crime.

Why not get rid of them? I would prefer not to start the next era of mages through the killing of others, justified or not. But if there is no hope of compromise, then yes I will annihilate them if I have to.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: And will you be asking anything of the mages?

Myself: Do everything in your power to protect yourselves and others from demonic possession. At this point in time, I feel it's advantageous enough for mages to live together in an environment of mutual protection... provided it's not tyrannically dominated.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: And will you be asking anything of the mages?

Summoning demons, you are getting axed.
Reckless use of blood magic, instant death. No questions asked.
Harming innocents. Death
Harming those who sincerely surrender, death.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

It is better than what we have now. The old foundation is what got us into this war in the first place.