1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: And, I believe you would already have a schism between you and Xilizhra's "Circles"

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

The templars' powers are useful for combating demons and abominations, so the techniques shouldn't be lost, but they should also not be able to govern the mages. As of now, I favor the Circle being attached to the Chantry to take advantage of its resources for the time being, but Circle ranks should have power equivalent to the Chantry ones, just over different spheres of influence; a First Enchanter would be the effective Grand Cleric of an individual Circle, and have official power over the templars. We could also easily get rid of Tranquility and Annulment.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: And, I believe you would already have a schism between you and Xilizhra's "Circles"

Perhaps. *shrugs*. Xil has her Thedas to run, I have my own.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

The templars' powers are useful for combating demons and abominations, so the techniques shouldn't be lost, but they should also not be able to govern the mages. As of now, I favor the Circle being attached to the Chantry to take advantage of its resources for the time being, but Circle ranks should have power equivalent to the Chantry ones, just over different spheres of influence; a First Enchanter would be the effective Grand Cleric of an individual Circle, and have official power over the templars. We could also easily get rid of Tranquility and Annulment.

Agreed. The abilities that templars have cannot be lost. I would grant that there still needs to be a new Templar Order, one not so pious however.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

The templars' powers are useful for combating demons and abominations, so the techniques shouldn't be lost, but they should also not be able to govern the mages. As of now, I favor the Circle being attached to the Chantry to take advantage of its resources for the time being, but Circle ranks should have power equivalent to the Chantry ones, just over different spheres of influence; a First Enchanter would be the effective Grand Cleric of an individual Circle, and have official power over the templars. We could also easily get rid of Tranquility and Annulment.

Agreed. The abilities that templars have cannot be lost. I would grant that there still needs to be a new Templar Order, one not so pious however.

Two separate Orders: one run by the Circles, and one run by the Chantry to watch over territories outside the Circles.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

If any single nation would try to forcibly conquer a Circle, that'd be an act of war against the Chantry and eligible for an Exalted March.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And that would be all? Do you think that is a solid foundation?

The templars' powers are useful for combating demons and abominations, so the techniques shouldn't be lost, but they should also not be able to govern the mages. As of now, I favor the Circle being attached to the Chantry to take advantage of its resources for the time being, but Circle ranks should have power equivalent to the Chantry ones, just over different spheres of influence; a First Enchanter would be the effective Grand Cleric of an individual Circle, and have official power over the templars. We could also easily get rid of Tranquility and Annulment.

Agreed. The abilities that templars have cannot be lost. I would grant that there still needs to be a new Templar Order, one not so pious however.

Two separate Orders: one run by the Circles, and one run by the Chantry to watch over territories outside the Circles.

Both Tranquility and Annulment axed? At least until a better version of Tranqulity can be found.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

If any single nation would try to forcibly conquer a Circle, that'd be an act of war against the Chantry and eligible for an Exalted March.

So your Circles will be allowed to hide behind a Chantry banner, but the Chantry holds no authority over the Circles, and can not order them around. Yeah.... I can certainly see why the Chantry would be thrilled at the aspect of such a deal.......

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: So you expect not only autonomy, but the protection from the Chantry. Without any concessions to the Chantry. I see.

Will you be conquering the territories your Circles will be located on, or do you expect someone to just hand you land?

What if the Chantry no longer wants you, and rightly decides that it's Circle towers and all knowledged contained therein were its property?

(The first thing I would do as the Red Templars would be to conquer every Circle tower - letting the mages flee en mass... and then destroy every repository of magic and either convert the Circle to a fortress or raze it.   Honestly, if this doesn't happen I would be embarrased for them as military thinkers.)  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

If any single nation would try to forcibly conquer a Circle, that'd be an act of war against the Chantry and eligible for an Exalted March.

So your Circles will be allowed to hide behind a Chantry banner, but the Chantry holds no authority over the Circles, and can not order them around. Yeah.... I can certainly see why the Chantry would be thrilled at the aspect of such a deal.......

Considering the Chantry has lost their Templars and Seekers, they do not have much to lose at the moment.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: So you expect not only autonomy, but the protection from the Chantry. Without any concessions to the Chantry. I see.

Will you be conquering the territories your Circles will be located on, or do you expect someone to just hand you land?

What if the Chantry no longer wants you, and rightly decides that it's Circle towers and all knowledged contained therein were its property?

(The first thing I would do as the Red Templars would be to conquer every Circle tower - letting the mages flee en mass... and then destroy every repository of magic and either convert the Circle to a fortress or raze it.   Honestly, if this doesn't happen I would be embarrased for them as military thinkers.)  

Well, the Chantry cannot force such a claim because they lost the Templars and Seekers who would help them do so.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Not every person is a cause-head. You might be surprised what vast wealth (as the Chantry surely has) can buy in the way of merc. armies.

And so, you have decided you will be taking the property of the Chantry (the Circle towers) and then expect them to also protect you.  I see. 

All this, because you have power to do so - and will do so by force? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 03:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: So you expect not only autonomy, but the protection from the Chantry. Without any concessions to the Chantry. I see.

Will you be conquering the territories your Circles will be located on, or do you expect someone to just hand you land?

What if the Chantry no longer wants you, and rightly decides that it's Circle towers and all knowledged contained therein were its property?

(The first thing I would do as the Red Templars would be to conquer every Circle tower - letting the mages flee en mass... and then destroy every repository of magic and either convert the Circle to a fortress or raze it.   Honestly, if this doesn't happen I would be embarrased for them as military thinkers.)  

The concession is that the Circles remain in place at all, and that's very sizable. I'll watch over mage births and all that and continue to uphold the Chantry's line about magic not ruling people. In return, they allow the governed to be represented by their government.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And why are mages so special that they should be under self-government and not the government of nations like normal people.

Was not the facade you waged your war under... one of equality?

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

If any single nation would try to forcibly conquer a Circle, that'd be an act of war against the Chantry and eligible for an Exalted March.

So your Circles will be allowed to hide behind a Chantry banner, but the Chantry holds no authority over the Circles, and can not order them around. Yeah.... I can certainly see why the Chantry would be thrilled at the aspect of such a deal.......

Considering the Chantry has lost their Templars and Seekers, they do not have much to lose at the moment.

Yet they stand to gain NOTHING from a deal like the one Xil proposed. Exactly what would motivate the Chantry to protect the Circles, if the Circle does not give the Chantry anything at all in return?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And why are mages so special that they should be under self-government and not the government of nations like normal people.

Was not the facade you waged your war under... one of equality?

Firstly, I consider all other nations illegitimate because they're based on idiotic aristocratic models with nothing resembling a mandate of the people. That being said, this is because societal segregation seems to be a model that Thedas would heavily prefer. There's an alternative that abolishes the Circles altogether and has mages freely able to enter politics and claim thrones if we go for full equality, but I anticipated that would be met with more resistance.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And you expect autonomy in the nations your Circle sits in?

Under what pretense do you expect that when - presumably - no other organization in Thedas has such privilege?

If any single nation would try to forcibly conquer a Circle, that'd be an act of war against the Chantry and eligible for an Exalted March.

So your Circles will be allowed to hide behind a Chantry banner, but the Chantry holds no authority over the Circles, and can not order them around. Yeah.... I can certainly see why the Chantry would be thrilled at the aspect of such a deal.......

Considering the Chantry has lost their Templars and Seekers, they do not have much to lose at the moment.

Yet they stand to gain NOTHING from a deal like the one Xil proposed. Exactly what would motivate the Chantry to protect the Circles, if the Circle does not give the Chantry anything at all in return?

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And of those mages that would want nothing to do with your prideful Circle, which will be hostile to those aristocratic nations who will assuredly move against you coercing the Chantry to withdraw any such support that you naturally expect...

Will you demand that they remain under your "free democracy"?

And what of the mundane family members - will your Circle be supporting them after they are forced, by your modernized circle of democracy, to also be hostile to those aristocratic nations that surround you?

Furthermore - do you expect those nations to give you mages born in their borders? Do you expect those mages to leave if those nations offer great boons to the mages born in those nations?

[dragonflight288]

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

I'd like to add onto this. Before the mages and the templars/seekers left the Chantry, the Chantry held all the power. Any negotiations mages wanted to go into with them had to be on the terms of the Chantry and the Templars.

Now, the Chantry has lost a great deal of is power through the loss of their martial arms and the mages. If the Circle's approached the Chantry now for peaceful negotiations, it would be on equal ground, and the mages would no longer have to dance to the Chantry's tune. The Chantry would have to play ball with the mages in some way in order to get the Circle's back in some form. If they don't, there's nothing that will stop the mages from simply leaving the meeting and the Chantry would gain and lose nothing as a result.

I think compromise is possible now, where it wasn't before simply because the Chantry has lost all capacity to force the mages to follow their guidelines or even set the terms. Before, any peaceful solution attempted had to be done on the Chantry's terms, and those usually left mages no better off than they were before.

Compromise and peace is still possible simply because the mages can enter the negotiation room on equal ground as the Chantry.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

Vast wealth has a way of broadening one's options.

They've lost the Templars, for now, but who's to say that's a permanent situation?  And if it is, they could always build a new Order, or hire sellswords to cover them in the short term.

If push really came to shove, what would prevent them from calling an Exalted March on the Mages?

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: Do you think people like Sebastian will not assist in bolstering the Chantry?

Do you think Exalted Marches are fought by Templars and mages alone? Or, are they perhaps, only a minority in the great Exalted Marches?

[Jaison1986]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

I'd like to add onto this. Before the mages and the templars/seekers left the Chantry, the Chantry held all the power. Any negotiations mages wanted to go into with them had to be on the terms of the Chantry and the Templars.

Now, the Chantry has lost a great deal of is power through the loss of their martial arms and the mages. If the Circle's approached the Chantry now for peaceful negotiations, it would be on equal ground, and the mages would no longer have to dance to the Chantry's tune. The Chantry would have to play ball with the mages in some way in order to get the Circle's back in some form. If they don't, there's nothing that will stop the mages from simply leaving the meeting and the Chantry would gain and lose nothing as a result.

I think compromise is possible now, where it wasn't before simply because the Chantry has lost all capacity to force the mages to follow their guidelines or even set the terms. Before, any peaceful solution attempted had to be done on the Chantry's terms, and those usually left mages no better off than they were before.

Compromise and peace is still possible simply because the mages can enter the negotiation room on equal ground as the Chantry.

I think the biggest question is whether the Chantry deserves such an chance or not. They already inflicted so much pain and misery on others simply because they felt entitled to do so. They never gave anyone a chance. Why should we give them one?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And of those mages that would want nothing to do with your prideful Circle, which will be hostile to those aristocratic nations who will assuredly move against you coercing the Chantry to withdraw any such support that you naturally expect...

Will you demand that they remain under your "free democracy"?

And what of the mundane family members - will your Circle be supporting them after they are forced, by your modernized circle of democracy, to also be hostile to those aristocratic nations that surround you?

Furthermore - do you expect those nations to give you mages born in their borders? Do you expect those mages to leave if those nations offer great boons to the mages born in those nations?

Who says they would be hostile to me more than to the Chantry? I am the Chantry.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: Do you think people like Sebastian will not assist in bolstering the Chantry?

Do you think Exalted Marches are fought by Templars and mages alone? Or, are they perhaps, only a minority in the great Exalted Marches?

Of course people like Sebastian would help bolster the Chantry's position, just like people like Alistair would help bolster the Circle's position. And countries like Rivain were always pro-mage. In Rivain, the entire Circle system was simply a courtesy to the Chantry and only symbolic, not really like all other Circles in Thedas.

At this point in time, I think an Exalted March, or a threat of one, is completely laughable. Orlais has no capacity to commit aiding the Chantry, they're in the middle of a civil war. They also have rumored elven rebellion. Antiva has no real army of its own, just the Crows. Ferelden is still recovering from a Blight, Rivain supports the mages, and the Free Marches aren't a unified nation but rather a collection of city-states.

The world is in such a state that the Chantry truly has no real power to force its views on anyone or even call an exalted march. The templars have broken away so they've lost their lyrium source, and the mages have declared Independence from the Chantry, but are relatively few in number compared to other armies.

At this point, it seems like everyone is more or less on equal footing.