1113 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think the biggest question is whether the Chantry deserves such an chance or not. They already inflicted so much pain and misery on others simply because they felt entitled to do so. They never gave anyone a chance. Why should we give them one?

Mainly because the Mages need the Chantry, like it or not.

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

I'd like to add onto this. Before the mages and the templars/seekers left the Chantry, the Chantry held all the power. Any negotiations mages wanted to go into with them had to be on the terms of the Chantry and the Templars.

Now, the Chantry has lost a great deal of is power through the loss of their martial arms and the mages. If the Circle's approached the Chantry now for peaceful negotiations, it would be on equal ground, and the mages would no longer have to dance to the Chantry's tune. The Chantry would have to play ball with the mages in some way in order to get the Circle's back in some form. If they don't, there's nothing that will stop the mages from simply leaving the meeting and the Chantry would gain and lose nothing as a result.

I think compromise is possible now, where it wasn't before simply because the Chantry has lost all capacity to force the mages to follow their guidelines or even set the terms. Before, any peaceful solution attempted had to be done on the Chantry's terms, and those usually left mages no better off than they were before.

Compromise and peace is still possible simply because the mages can enter the negotiation room on equal ground as the Chantry.

I think the biggest question is whether the Chantry deserves such an chance or not. They already inflicted so much pain and misery on others simply because they felt entitled to do so. They never gave anyone a chance. Why should we give them one?

Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And do you think you can supply more money to the Chantry than the nations of Thedas?

Nobody will need to buy your enchantments or services - they'll have mages born in their own nations they could pay to be loyal.

And why would the Chantry embrace you? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I am not saying that I myself agree with Xil, entirely. I was just saying that at the moment, the Chantry's options are rather limited due to the loss of their martial arm. Nonetheless, I am still in the compromise camp.

I'd like to add onto this. Before the mages and the templars/seekers left the Chantry, the Chantry held all the power. Any negotiations mages wanted to go into with them had to be on the terms of the Chantry and the Templars.

Now, the Chantry has lost a great deal of is power through the loss of their martial arms and the mages. If the Circle's approached the Chantry now for peaceful negotiations, it would be on equal ground, and the mages would no longer have to dance to the Chantry's tune. The Chantry would have to play ball with the mages in some way in order to get the Circle's back in some form. If they don't, there's nothing that will stop the mages from simply leaving the meeting and the Chantry would gain and lose nothing as a result.

I think compromise is possible now, where it wasn't before simply because the Chantry has lost all capacity to force the mages to follow their guidelines or even set the terms. Before, any peaceful solution attempted had to be done on the Chantry's terms, and those usually left mages no better off than they were before.

Compromise and peace is still possible simply because the mages can enter the negotiation room on equal ground as the Chantry.

What Xil is proposing is NOT compromise. She seeks to usurp the Chantry and use it as a puppet to promote a pro-mage agenda. She is basically promoting EXACTLY what the Templars and mundanes of Thedas fear mages would if they were ever free.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And do you think you can supply more money to the Chantry than the nations of Thedas?

Nobody will need to buy your enchantments or services - they'll have mages born in their own nations they could pay to be loyal.

And why would the Chantry embrace you? 

Because I'm the one who's willing to have the Circle system in place if certain concessions are made.

What Xil is proposing is NOT compromise. She seeks to usurp the Chantry
and use it as a puppet to promote a pro-mage agenda. She is basically
promoting EXACTLY what the Templars and mundanes of Thedas fear mages
would if they were ever free.

It's the only possible compromise. You cannot legitimately govern people without representation.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And do you think the Chantry isn't smart enough to realize that if the Chantry doesn't support you, and you're too prideful to hitch your wagon to those horrible aristocratic nations, and the Templars remain openly hostile against you - that you're simply using them as a shield against your enemies? And worse - you'll be pushing your agenda from behind that shield being openly antagonistic to... well, everyone.

Yes, of course it will be your game - one which I, nor anyone else, is a part of - but I think you've taken that far too into account with your perfectly functioning Circle autonomy.

I also find your call for equality to be a total lie.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: And do you think the Chantry isn't smart enough to realize that if the Chantry doesn't support you, and you're too prideful to hitch your wagon to those horrible aristocratic nations, and the Templars remain openly hostile against you - that you're simply using them as a shield against your enemies? And worse - you'll be pushing your agenda from behind that shield being openly antagonistic to... well, everyone.

No templars will be openly hostile; those I'll need to crush beforehand. And this is an attempt to compromise with the Chantry; I could be trying to destroy it altogether, but I'm not.

I also find your call for equality to be a total lie.

I already told you what full equality would entail, and you never responded. I don't think implementing it at this point is feasible. Do you?

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: That you find yourself magnanimous for offering the Chantry a chance to submit to your terms.... is very telling about the type of game you'll be playing.

It is essentially the very reason why I refuse to support this rebellion.

As for the Templars - the free mages of the first Inquisition couldn't stop the Templars - I'm not sure why you think the oppressed mages can. I mean, I know you know that the game will provide for things like that - but I don't find it plausible that you'll simply destroy the Templars.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

Except they don't have a total lack of control.  They still have the cultural stanglehold on most of Thedas.  They've temporarily lost their security force, while the Mages just made themselves a threatening unknown to the populace. They've lost none of their wealth, and little, if any, of their influence among the people.  Heck, they haven't even lost complete control over all the Mages.  There are still Mages and Templars both that are Chantry loyalists.

A for Ferelden, sure, Alistair as a person might not be fond of the Chantry, but Ferelden is still an Andrastian nation, even after the Orlesian occupation.  And there's nothing to suggest that the common man or Ferelden is any more pro-Mage than in Starkhaven or Orlais.  It's not at all certain that his people would allow him to throw the Chantry out, even were he inclined to do so.

For most of Thedas, the Chantry is their shield against the old evils of magic unregulated and the new evil of the Qunari.  Who do you think the people are going to turn to when a magical apocalypse happens?  It won't be the mages.  They'll get blamed regardless of it they're at fault or not.  It might be the Templars in some cases, as the outward expression of defense against magic.  But a huge number are going to flock to their Chantry and pray.  And when it's over, a lot of people are going to give credit to the Chantry and the Maker's Bride for seing them through the time of turmoil.

The Chantry may have temporarily lost some of their ability to project force, but they have lost none of their overall influence.   Their lack of an armed force will realistically only last as long as they let it, regardless of what happens with the breakaway Templars and Mages.

So, yeah, the Chantry can't knock doors down at the moment without
borrowing a thug, but they've lost little, if any, of their actual power .  Frankly, unless something drastic happens in DA:I, there's the very real chance they could come out of the Veil tear events stronger than ever.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: That you find yourself magnanimous for offering the Chantry a chance to submit to your terms.... is very telling about the type of game you'll be playing.

It's extremely magnanimous. The Chantry is the one secondarily at fault for this whole mess, besides the templars.

So, yeah, the Chantry can't knock doors down at the moment without
borrowing a thug, but they've lost little, if any, of their actual power . Frankly, unless something drastic happens in DA:I, there's the very real chance they could come out of the Veil tear events stronger than ever.

We heard something about the Chantry's entire leadership being blown up.

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

@Xilizhra: That you find yourself magnanimous for offering the Chantry a chance to submit to your terms.... is very telling about the type of game you'll be playing.

It's extremely magnanimous. The Chantry is the one secondarily at fault for this whole mess, besides the templars.

So, yeah, the Chantry can't knock doors down at the moment without
borrowing a thug, but they've lost little, if any, of their actual power . Frankly, unless something drastic happens in DA:I, there's the very real chance they could come out of the Veil tear events stronger than ever.

We heard something about the Chantry's entire leadership being blown up.

Doesn't matter.  A brief period of uncertainty at best.  The Chantry is too big and too widespread for decapitation to have any lasting effect.

[Medhia Nox]

@TK514: As you and I both pointed out... the Chantry has the resources to purchase a brand new shiny military... along with any peasant willing to join up... and any noble willing to support them.

I cannot help but think that this will be an ill thought out story if the Chantry loses it's power in such a short time - and the common people will embrace a violent continent wide rebellion of beings with terrible powers .

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't matter. A brief period of uncertainty at best. The Chantry is too big and too widespread for decapitation to have any lasting effect.

The Veil tears may be causing similar events all over. And Varric explicitly says that the Chantry has "fallen to pieces," with no denial from Cassandra, back in DA2.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Bioware games say a lot of things. Without anything more than a lying dwarf' prone to hyperbole's assertion - I'll have to wait for the game.

Also - the death of Chantry leadership doesn't mean the Chantry will collpase - the Poped died a plenty.  It's a dangerous time when there's a vacuum in such a powerful institution. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Bioware games say a lot of things. Without anything more than a lying dwarf' prone to hyperbole's assertion - I'll have to wait for the game.

If Varric's words were in a vacuum, perhaps, but Cassandra is there too.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: And from her perspective - the mages rebellion could easily be the Chantry in shambles.

Shambles doesn't mean destroyed - so many organizations throughout history have faced near collapse only to return more terrible and more powerful than before.

And no, I'm not going to say that's what's going to happen - I'm saying making assertions over one line of dialogue is... presumptuous. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: And from her perspective - the mages rebellion could easily be the Chantry in shambles.

Shambles doesn't mean destroyed - so many organizations throughout history have faced near collapse only to return more terrible and more powerful than before.

We shall see. But I somehow don't think that the Chantry will return to the same or greater power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And Cassandra herself is not proof that the Chantry has in fact not fallen to pieces, since she is there doing the Chantry's bidding in the first place? Varric was probably just hyperboling.

[Hilarystamp]

The chantry itself is not the problem. Although there are some who turn a blind eye to the abuses of mages....the chantry should remain the place of worship. It should not have control over the mages, even if they follow the words of Andraste. The Templar order is broken and needs to be wiped out. However I still believe that mages who commit bad act should be punished. So why not allow the seekers to take over and hunt the mages who need to be hunted. But allowing the good mages to live free.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Cassandra herself is not proof that the Chantry has in fact not fallen to pieces, since she is there doing the Chantry's bidding in the first place? Varric was probably just hyperboling.

Doing the Divine's bidding. The size of the organization she still has is unclear.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Cassandra herself is not proof that the Chantry has in fact not fallen to pieces, since she is there doing the Chantry's bidding in the first place? Varric was probably just hyperboling.

Doing the Divine's bidding. The size of the organization she still has is unclear.

Is the Divine or is the Divine not the head of the Chantry?

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And Cassandra herself is not proof that the Chantry has in fact not fallen to pieces, since she is there doing the Chantry's bidding in the first place? Varric was probably just hyperboling.

Doing the Divine's bidding. The size of the organization she still has is unclear.

Is the Divine or is the Divine not the head of the Chantry?

Officially. It doesn't mean the Chantry is intact.

[TK514]

There are only two ways to really damage the Chantry in a way that results in a sharp decline of its power:

Prove in a way that can be easily disseminated to the populace that they are directly behind some event or atrocity the common man cares about, like the Veil Tear or Blights, or

A direct, continent-wide attack on the Chantry itself, where Chantries are destroyed and clergy slaughtered. Someone would have to commit to breaking the Chantry's back by virtually eliminating their presence in Thedas.

Long term, the Chantry is probably going to lose power and influence naturally. Exterior cultural shifts and interior organizational shifts would seem to make that all but inevitable.

A series of successful and well loved monarchs who show public disdain for the Chantry would change the view of the common man in their country. A liberal Divine, with an ally in a liberal Lord Seeker? That could change the nature of the Seekers and the Templars altogether.

Having the Mages go into open rebellion and the Templars break off after them, then blowing up the Divine that let it happen and her allies? That sounds like a great way to make sure the most oppressive anti-Mage regime possible is installed. No steps forward and a hundred steps back.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[Hilarystamp]

Personally I don't understand why they have made this whole religious order around the words of one person, Andraste, She was still only a mortal person. But yet everyone follows her. Why!

[Inprea]

TK514 wrote...
Except they don't have a total lack of control.  They still have the cultural stanglehold on most of Thedas.  They've temporarily lost their security force, while the Mages just made themselves a threatening unknown to the populace. They've lost none of their wealth, and little, if any, of their influence among the people.  Heck, they haven't even lost complete control over all the Mages.  There are still Mages and Templars both that are Chantry loyalists.

A for Ferelden, sure, Alistair as a person might not be fond of the Chantry, but Ferelden is still an Andrastian nation, even after the Orlesian occupation.  And there's nothing to suggest that the common man or Ferelden is any more pro-Mage than in Starkhaven or Orlais.  It's not at all certain that his people would allow him to throw the Chantry out, even were he inclined to do so.

For most of Thedas, the Chantry is their shield against the old evils of magic unregulated and the new evil of the Qunari.  Who do you think the people are going to turn to when a magical apocalypse happens?  It won't be the mages.  They'll get blamed regardless of it they're at fault or not.  It might be the Templars in some cases, as the outward expression of defense against magic.  But a huge number are going to flock to their Chantry and pray.  And when it's over, a lot of people are going to give credit to the Chantry and the Maker's Bride for seing them through the time of turmoil.

The Chantry may have temporarily lost some of their ability to project force, but they have lost none of their overall influence.   Their lack of an armed force will realistically only last as long as they let it, regardless of what happens with the breakaway Templars and Mages.

So, yeah, the Chantry can't knock doors down at the moment without
borrowing a thug, but they've lost little, if any, of their actual power .  Frankly, unless something drastic happens in DA:I, there's the very real chance they could come out of the Veil tear events stronger than ever.

Doesn't that depend on where the chantry got most of its wealth and what has happened to its reserves? A nation at war is going to need funding and if we look to the real world for examples it's not unheard of for them to take it from the church. I can even see the chantry becoming targets of raid for rogue templars who need lyrium and funding as well. I know if I was a bandit leader and the duke's men were off fighting demons while the local chantry had been left guarded my first thought would be, "Pay day!"

If I remember correctly, and I may be wrong, the chantry recieved most of its wealth from the lyrium trade. However, with the loss of many of the circles and the tranquil being cured who are they going to have to work the lyrium or buy it? Without the tranquil the only people I can think of that can work lyrium would be the surface dwarfs and I'm not sure how long it would take to train them to do so. If they take too long someone could move in and begin dealing with the dwarfs instead or block chantry access.

You mentioned that people will go running to the chantry for safety and they might. Yet once that happens though they then have to convince the people that they're being protected. I also wonder if the chantry will be able to sustain such things as the chanters board. People could end up feeling as if the chantry had abandoned them just as easily as they can be chased to it after all.