1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@HIllarystamp: Because the vast majority of humanity are followers - and no, I'm not being sarcastic. Humans always seek something to follow - then proceed to believe that thing alone is the correct thing to follow to protect their own psyche.

Why not follow the idealized actions of a person?

Is there something else more concrete humans have made worth following?

[TK514]

Inprea wrote...

TK514 wrote...
Except they don't have a total lack of control.  They still have the cultural stanglehold on most of Thedas.  They've temporarily lost their security force, while the Mages just made themselves a threatening unknown to the populace. They've lost none of their wealth, and little, if any, of their influence among the people.  Heck, they haven't even lost complete control over all the Mages.  There are still Mages and Templars both that are Chantry loyalists.

A for Ferelden, sure, Alistair as a person might not be fond of the Chantry, but Ferelden is still an Andrastian nation, even after the Orlesian occupation.  And there's nothing to suggest that the common man or Ferelden is any more pro-Mage than in Starkhaven or Orlais.  It's not at all certain that his people would allow him to throw the Chantry out, even were he inclined to do so.

For most of Thedas, the Chantry is their shield against the old evils of magic unregulated and the new evil of the Qunari.  Who do you think the people are going to turn to when a magical apocalypse happens?  It won't be the mages.  They'll get blamed regardless of it they're at fault or not.  It might be the Templars in some cases, as the outward expression of defense against magic.  But a huge number are going to flock to their Chantry and pray.  And when it's over, a lot of people are going to give credit to the Chantry and the Maker's Bride for seing them through the time of turmoil.

The Chantry may have temporarily lost some of their ability to project force, but they have lost none of their overall influence.   Their lack of an armed force will realistically only last as long as they let it, regardless of what happens with the breakaway Templars and Mages.

So, yeah, the Chantry can't knock doors down at the moment without
borrowing a thug, but they've lost little, if any, of their actual power .  Frankly, unless something drastic happens in DA:I, there's the very real chance they could come out of the Veil tear events stronger than ever.

Doesn't that depend on where the chantry got most of its wealth and what has happened to its reserves? A nation at war is going to need funding and if we look to the real world for examples it's not unheard of for them to take it from the church. I can even see the chantry becoming targets of raid for rogue templars who need lyrium and funding as well. I know if I was a bandit leader and the duke's men were off fighting demons while the local chantry had been left guarded my first thought would be, "Pay day!"

If I remember correctly, and I may be wrong, the chantry recieved most of its wealth from the lyrium trade. However, with the loss of many of the circles and the tranquil being cured who are they going to have to work the lyrium or buy it? Without the tranquil the only people I can think of that can work lyrium would be the surface dwarfs and I'm not sure how long it would take to train them to do so. If they take too long someone could move in and begin dealing with the dwarfs instead or block chantry access.

You mentioned that people will go running to the chantry for safety and they might. Yet once that happens though they then have to convince the people that they're being protected. I also wonder if the chantry will be able to sustain such things as the chanters board. People could end up feeling as if the chantry had abandoned them just as easily as they can be chased to it after all.

The Chantry gets most of its wealth from its worshippers.  The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade.  None of that has changed, as far as we know.  The only difference between before and now as far as lyrium is concerned is that before, they doled it out to Templars and Mages, and now they're stockpiling it.  If they're smart, they're stockpiling it in secret locations, or in Orzammar itself.  If they're really smart, they started building a new Templar Order shortly after Lambert broke the Accord.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[Hilarystamp]

People need to open their eyes..... Stop following blindly.

[Jaison1986]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

I don't consider it stepping it to their level since we would be punishing them for commiting crimes against mages and other minorities. While the Chantry mistreats and punishes these groups... simply for existing. Something I find espeacially monstrous.

Only if I can help it. I'll do my best to keep civilians out of the crossfire as I fight Templars and the Chantry itself. Of course, I won't be able to save everyone. But one thing I know is that if the Chantry isn't stopped, innocent will suffer at their hands.

Not everyone yes. But they still support an ideal that is all about supporting oppression and death to people that think differently from them. And even when they don't do bad things, they turn an blind eye to those who do.

What the Chantry is going to do is become terrified of the fact they have no military force to protect them, and are completely vulnerable to any group they abused and now are seeking retribuition.

[Inprea]

TK514 wrote...
The Chantry gets most of its wealth from its worshippers.  The Chantry controls the surface lyrium trade.  None of that has changed, as far as we know.  The only difference between before and now as far as lyrium is concerned is that before, they doled it out to Templars and Mages, and now they're stockpiling it.  If they're smart, they're stockpiling it in secret locations, or in Orzammar itself.  If they're really smart, they started building a new Templar Order shortly after Lambert broke the Accord.

Source please. So far I haven't found anything saying exactly where the chantry gets the bulk of its wealth for certain. If you're going to say that you know for certain that the chantry gets most of its wealth from donations you need a source otherwise it's only what you believe. It's also much harder to control the lyrium trade when you've lost your ability to inforce your rules.

Well there is a little information. http://dragonage.wik...r_Lady_Redeemer

According to that at least trade from the sea and land both contribute to the chantry's wealth as well as donations. Though it doesn't note what one is the largest contributor or what kind of trade is involved and that is only for one chantry instead of the entire system.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

I don't consider it stepping it to their level since we would be punishing them for commiting crimes against mages and other minorities. While the Chantry mistreats and punishes these groups... simply for existing. Something I find espeacially monstrous.

Only if I can help it. I'll do my best to keep civilians out of the crossfire as I fight Templars and the Chantry itself. Of course, I won't be able to save everyone. But one thing I know is that if the Chantry isn't stopped, innocent will suffer at their hands.

Not everyone yes. But they still support an ideal that is all about supporting oppression and death to people that think differently from them. And even when they don't do bad things, they turn an blind eye to those who do.

What the Chantry is going to do is become terrified of the fact they have no military force to protect them, and are completely vulnerable to any group they abused and now are seeking retribuition.

So you will be judge, jury and executioner.... How charmingly fascist

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

I don't consider it stepping it to their level since we would be punishing them for commiting crimes against mages and other minorities. While the Chantry mistreats and punishes these groups... simply for existing. Something I find espeacially monstrous.

Only if I can help it. I'll do my best to keep civilians out of the crossfire as I fight Templars and the Chantry itself. Of course, I won't be able to save everyone. But one thing I know is that if the Chantry isn't stopped, innocent will suffer at their hands.

Not everyone yes. But they still support an ideal that is all about supporting oppression and death to people that think differently from them. And even when they don't do bad things, they turn an blind eye to those who do.

What the Chantry is going to do is become terrified of the fact they have no military force to protect them, and are completely vulnerable to any group they abused and now are seeking retribuition.

So you will be judge, jury and executioner.... How charmingly fascist

No need to be rude. Although I guarantee you that if the mages were to lose the war, the Chantry and Templars would do the exact same.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes, and he is doing a very bad job at showing exactly why he is any better than the Chantry. If I have to choose between an age of chaos and uncertainty as a result of the collapse of the Chantry, or the status quo, then I'll pick the status quo thank you very much.
And I don't find it rude to point out reality. He is advocating a fascist way of dealing with his adversaries. I'm merely calling him on it.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Jaison1986]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

I don't consider it stepping it to their level since we would be punishing them for commiting crimes against mages and other minorities. While the Chantry mistreats and punishes these groups... simply for existing. Something I find espeacially monstrous.

Only if I can help it. I'll do my best to keep civilians out of the crossfire as I fight Templars and the Chantry itself. Of course, I won't be able to save everyone. But one thing I know is that if the Chantry isn't stopped, innocent will suffer at their hands.

Not everyone yes. But they still support an ideal that is all about supporting oppression and death to people that think differently from them. And even when they don't do bad things, they turn an blind eye to those who do.

What the Chantry is going to do is become terrified of the fact they have no military force to protect them, and are completely vulnerable to any group they abused and now are seeking retribuition.

So you will be judge, jury and executioner.... How charmingly fascist

No need to be rude. Although I guarantee you that if the mages were to lose the war, the Chantry and Templars would do the exact same.

Indeed. My guess as to why Templar supporters think they have the moral high ground in this argument is as good as anyone else.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yes, and he is doing a very bad job at showing exactly why he is any better than the Chantry. If I have to choose between an age of chaos and uncertainty as a result of the collapse of the Chantry, or the status quo, then I'll pick the status quo thank you very much.
And I don't find it rude to point out reality. He is advocating a fascist way of dealing with his adversaries. I'm merely calling him on it.

Reality or not, it was said rudely.

[Hellion Rex]

Jaison1986 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Because we are above stooping to their level? :innocent:

Because in war innocents will always get caught in the crossfire?

Because not everyone in the Chantry is responsible for all the Chantry's actions?

Before, the Chantry had risen with King Drakon the I, and they held all the power for nearly as long as they've been established. Now that that power is gone, it'll be interesting to see what the Chantry does with their total lack of control.

I don't consider it stepping it to their level since we would be punishing them for commiting crimes against mages and other minorities. While the Chantry mistreats and punishes these groups... simply for existing. Something I find espeacially monstrous.

Only if I can help it. I'll do my best to keep civilians out of the crossfire as I fight Templars and the Chantry itself. Of course, I won't be able to save everyone. But one thing I know is that if the Chantry isn't stopped, innocent will suffer at their hands.

Not everyone yes. But they still support an ideal that is all about supporting oppression and death to people that think differently from them. And even when they don't do bad things, they turn an blind eye to those who do.

What the Chantry is going to do is become terrified of the fact they have no military force to protect them, and are completely vulnerable to any group they abused and now are seeking retribuition.

So you will be judge, jury and executioner.... How charmingly fascist

No need to be rude. Although I guarantee you that if the mages were to lose the war, the Chantry and Templars would do the exact same.

Indeed. My guess as to why Templar supporters think they have the moral high ground in this argument is as good as anyone else.

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:13 .

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

I won't speak for him, but that's certainly how I see it. 

And few, if any, Templar supporters would suggest that the current version is 'fine as is'.  The closest I can recall is 'It's better than the alternatives', with most saying 'Needs to improve'.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:17 .

[Xilizhra]

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

Collective perceived security vs. collective freedom and security.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

Collective perceived security vs. collective freedom and security.

And the bolded is where people start to disagree on the topic.

[Medhia Nox]

@Jaison: Retribution is not a moral high ground at all.

And no, not a templar supporter.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Jaison: Retribution is not a moral high ground at all.

And no, not a templar supporter.

I think that both sides are technically "morally correct." It is merely my own personal perception as to which I believe is right.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Jaison: Retribution is not a moral high ground at all.

And no, not a templar supporter.

You joined the templars when the choice was between them and mages, as I recall from that thread about negotiations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

I've never claimed to have the moral high ground. On the contrary I see dozens of pro-mage poseters always claim that the slaughter of the entirety of the Templar Order and the Chantry is waht is "right". That is why I challenge pro-mages on their stances, since they rarely ever prove to be worthy of respect, sicne they themselves show to be just as bad as the system they find so horrible.

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluviuanix: I do not believe that to be true, but I won't bother with that discussion.

What I will say, is that precisely because you believe both are morally correct, and therefor also morally incorrect - any appeal to "justice" is only one of deception. Were people more honest, I would perhaps see some worth to the mage rebellion - as it is, I believe it's simply a bunch of liars masking their power grab under the guise of justice.

@XIlizhra:  You can play king/queen of your own little game... but you don't get to tell me who I joined, ever. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Xilizhra]

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

I consider this a blatant false dichotomy.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

On some level, I understand why Templars feel the way that they do, but that does not make it right or "morally better". In a nutshell, it is a matter of collective security versus individual freedom, more or less. That is a fair assessment, Emperor?

I've never claimed to have the moral high ground. On the contrary I see dozens of pro-mage poseters always claim that the slaughter of the entirety of the Templar Order and the Chantry is waht is "right". That is why I challenge pro-mages on their stances, since they rarely ever prove to be worthy of respect, sicne they themselves show to be just as bad as the system they find so horrible.

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

I am not saying that the mage side is morally right either.  And you are right in that it comes down to which side we value more.

Modifié par eluvianix, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

I consider this a blatant false dichotomy.

On what grounds? Because this is pretty much the argument. and the two will never exist in tandom.  

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

I consider this a blatant false dichotomy.

In what way?

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

But yes, the entire discussion can often be boiled down to collective security and individual freedom and whichever you value most.

I consider this a blatant false dichotomy.

How so?

[Xilizhra]

Because one does not have to ensure collective security by means of vicious bigots or a system that promotes and pampers them.