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[Lord Raijin]

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

I can't speak for anyone else but for myself. As a very pro-mage pro-Circle I realize that not all templars are evil and crazy. In fact I respect some while others make me laugh (in a non sarcastical good way).  From what I've seen I very much like the relationship between First Enchanter Irving and Knight-Commander Greagoir as it should've been between Meredith and Orsino. I admit that I did not like how Greagoir was targeting my best friend, Jowan, but if he truly do have evidence that Jowan is indeed a blood mage then he has the legal right to force him to under go the Rite of Tranqulity. I may not agree with choice (I honestly don't have a problem with using blood magic), but the law is the law, and the Templars are the enforcers of the Chantries laws.

eluvianix wrote...
Tranquility does allow one to reason, but
only at its most extreme points. Having no emotions allows one to pursue
things without being clouded by emotions, to pursue thins logically.
Not to say that pursuing things logically is any better. And in regards
to Karl, having no emotions meant that he lost his attachment to Anders,
so he had no reason to protect him any longer.

It
certainly has a funny way of showing us tranquils "reason". Without
having emotions Karl wasn't able to reason,and therefour had no problem
aiding the templars in the capture of Anders. Tranquils are definitely
in some kind of trance. It's like having a brain slug latch onto your head.

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite
easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood
Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own
to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort
of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession
was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he
thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he
actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

Where is this proof that Orsino murdered his fellow mages to become a Harvester?

[TK514]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"IF" it's true - I wonder who's convincing them that being an abomination is totally cool... couldn't be the demons could it? Nah....

But really - Rivian isn't worth discussing in any form. We know less about them than we do about Tevinter or the Qunari.

Generally Abominations are not the target they are going for. They would probably ideally want for all their possession to go the way of Wynne. Where the host is perfectly in balance with itself, and therefore creates a harmonic host body for the spirit, which makes sure it remains uncorrupted. And while you could ague that Wynne is technically an Abomination, she is certainly of a benevolent nature. However Anders would be the opposite site of the spectrum, and embody exactly what they wish to avoid. They do not wish for an unharmoic host body to pervert the spirit and create a malevolent Abomination. But when such things happen, they see it as a natural occurence (which arguably it is).

I'll say this; When it works, a spiritual possession such as Wynne's would seem to be as close to protection from demonic possession as we're likely to see.  I doubt the spirit would want to share.

[Medhia Nox]

@Icy Magebane: there was no real reason for me to overreact - I had just been trying to make myself clear for several posts early and I was touchy about doing it again. All good.

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Where is this proof that Orsino murdered his fellow mages to become a Harvester?

The part were he tells you he did it.

"Willing Sacrifices!  Men and Women who would have died at your hands anyhow!"

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Raijin wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...

The original plan for making mages tranquil may have had good intentions. But not anymore, the Templars use it to get what they want, because they believe they have the right to.

Isolated instances in what the Devs themselves have called an over the top broken Circle is hardly 'The Templars'.

If you're going to lump all Templars into a group with Alrik and Meredith, then it's only reasonable to consider all Mages the same as Quintin and Tarohne.

I can't speak for anyone else but for myself. As a very pro-mage pro-Circle I realize that not all templars are evil and crazy. In fact I respect some while others make me laugh (in a non sarcastical good way).  From what I've seen I very much like the relationship between First Enchanter Irving and Knight-Commander Greagoir as it should've been between Meredith and Orsino. I admit that I did not like how Greagoir was targeting my best friend, Jowan, but if he truly do have evidence that Jowan is indeed a blood mage then he has the legal right to force him to under go the Rite of Tranqulity. I may not agree with choice (I honestly don't have a problem with using blood magic), but the law is the law, and the Templars are the enforcers of the Chantries laws.

There isn't really any doubt that Jowan was a blood mage. Besides, at least as I recall it, Jowan was being made Tranquil because he was too weak.

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Tranquility does allow one to reason, but
only at its most extreme points. Having no emotions allows one to pursue
things without being clouded by emotions, to pursue thins logically.
Not to say that pursuing things logically is any better. And in regards
to Karl, having no emotions meant that he lost his attachment to Anders,
so he had no reason to protect him any longer.

It
certainly has a funny way of showing us tranquils "reason". Without
having emotions Karl wasn't able to reason,and therefour had no problem
aiding the templars in the capture of Anders. Tranquils are definitely
in some kind of trance. It's like having a brain slug latch onto your head.

The only reason Karl would have had to protect Anders would be his feelings towards him. Once these feelings were removed there would be no reason as to why Karl would try to protect Anders.

Lord Raijin wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite
easy to substitute Uther and Orsino. So not only are all Mages Blood
Mages and Abominations, but they are quite willing to murder their own
to get their way.

They didn't actually launch any sort
of mass slaughter until they were no longer mages; Uldred's possession
was accidental and Orsino... was insufficiently explored, but I think he
thought he'd have more control over the Harvester state than he
actually did.

Actually, Orsino slaughtered his fellow mages so he could become the Harvester, not after.

Where is this proof that Orsino murdered his fellow mages to become a Harvester?

He only does so in the Templar ending. Orsino does say however, while cackling manically nasically, that the dead around him gave their lives willingly. Given the scene of carnage that greets you after you enter the room, it would seem to indicate that Orsino is lying. Again.

[Medhia Nox]

Never trust an elf!

Edit:  I thought Jowan turned to blood magic because he was too weak - and that's when Irving brought the Tranquil hammer down on him.  He whines about how you passed your Harrowing and he's been there longer than you and how he "needed an edge". 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:48 .

[MisterJB]

Actually, in Redcliff's dungeons, he can admit that the reason he did it was because he was jealous of the PC.
You read that right; Jowan turned to blood magic; the magic that built the most heinous empire in the history of Thedas, the magic that deals in people's lives, the magic that tells every demon in the yard that your milshake is better than everyone else's; while surrounded by Templars who would not hesitate to kill him for being a blood mage because he just couldn't deal with the PC being a more powerful mage.
Honestly, at this point, Jowan is just a waste of perfectly good oxygen.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 novembre 2013 - 08:58 .

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: By the Maker - the PC oppressed Jowan!

[MisterJB]

Then, according to pro-mage logic, the PC is to blame for every single one of Jowan's misdeeds until he dies of old age.

[Medhia Nox]

That makes perfect sensible sense.

[HiroVoid]

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

[Inprea]

HiroVoid wrote...

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

The PC knew like two or three spells at the time! What was he jealous of? The PC's amazing ability to step out of the line of fire whenever a rage demon charged her?

[TK514]

Inprea wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

The PC knew like two or three spells at the time! What was he jealous of? The PC's amazing ability to step out of the line of fire whenever a rage demon charged her?

Well, this is Jowan we're talking about...

[The Hierophant]

TK514 wrote...

Inprea wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

The PC knew like two or three spells at the time! What was he jealous of? The PC's amazing ability to step out of the line of fire whenever a rage demon charged her?

Well, this is Jowan we're talking about...

[Br3admax]

I'll chalk it up to gameplay story segregation.

[HiroVoid]

Inprea wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

The PC knew like two or three spells at the time! What was he jealous of? The PC's amazing ability to step out of the line of fire whenever a rage demon charged her?

Pfft.  He wishes he could summon a wisp and puddle of oil like my mage could!

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...

Inprea wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

If only the PC wasn't such a show-off.

The PC knew like two or three spells at the time! What was he jealous of? The PC's amazing ability to step out of the line of fire whenever a rage demon charged her?

Pfft.  He wishes he could summon a wisp and puddle of oil like my mage could!

Nah, Jowan was jealous of my Storm of the Century.

[Urazz]

It would really depend on the situation for me on who I would support. I'm more of a man in the middle that sees both points and hopes there is a middle ground to take.

In DA:O, I sided with the mages in the Circle because Cullen just came out from a traumatic experience and was overreacting.

In DA2, I chose the mages because Meredith was being crazy and irrational in her choice to pull off a Right of Annulment.

[Hellion Rex]

Urazz wrote...

It would really depend on the situation for me on who I would support. I'm more of a man in the middle that sees both points and hopes there is a middle ground to take.

In DA:O, I sided with the mages in the Circle because Cullen just came out from a traumatic experience and was overreacting.

In DA2, I chose the mages because Meredith was being crazy and irrational in her choice to pull off a Right of Annulment.

One of us. One of us.:alien:

[Oasis_JS]

eluvianix wrote...

Urazz wrote...

It would really depend on the situation for me on who I would support. I'm more of a man in the middle that sees both points and hopes there is a middle ground to take.

In DA:O, I sided with the mages in the Circle because Cullen just came out from a traumatic experience and was overreacting.

In DA2, I chose the mages because Meredith was being crazy and irrational in her choice to pull off a Right of Annulment.

One of us. One of us.:alien:

IT HAS BEGUN !! =D

[Lord Raijin]

TK514 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think the biggest question is whether the Chantry deserves such an chance or not. They already inflicted so much pain and misery on others simply because they felt entitled to do so. They never gave anyone a chance. Why should we give them one?

Mainly because the Mages need the Chantry, like it or not.

The Chantry needs the Mages too, like it or not.

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because one does not have to ensure collective security by means of vicious bigots or a system that promotes and pampers them.

Yep, there we go using that word again.

Second, it's common knowledge that security, or more properly order, is inversely related to freedom. We give up freedoms so the government can insure order. The more freedom that we have, the less order, and vice versa. 

I don't know what country you're from but where I come from if our government even tries to anything like this all hell is going to break lose from the citizens.

I refuse to surrender my freedom just so that my government can insure order and feed me fallicies about how my safety will be far better if I give my my freedom away to my government.

It ain't going to happen thay way.

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Mainly because the Mages need the Chantry, like it or not.

The Chantry needs the Mages too, like it or not.

I'm curious what makes you say that, for the Chantry specifically.  There's the Qunari, but they're less of a Chantry need and more of a general usefulness.

Modifié par TK514, 13 novembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
There isn't really any doubt that Jowan was a blood mage. Besides, at least as I recall it, Jowan was being made Tranquil because he was too weak.

 
Jowan was going to be made tranquil not because he was weak (I honestly don't think he was weak, but that is just my opinion) but because there were witnesses, according to Knight-Commander Greagoir, who saw Jowan dabbling in blood magic. Perhabs it was Uldred who snitched on him. Either way Irving indicated that if the Chantry wasn't involved in the Circle that things would've been different and that he was obligated to agree with the Rite of Tranqulity.

The only reason Karl would have had to protect Anders would be his feelings towards him. Once these feelings were removed there would be no reason as to why Karl would try to protect Anders.

That's true. One of the side effects after being made tranquil is that you become emotionaless, however supposedly it does not remove your memories. If Anders and Karl were good friends then how come Karl couldn't remember it, and put two together? If Tranquil could reason and have free will then how come Karl did not excerise them?

He only does so in the Templar ending. Orsino does say however, while cackling manically nasically, that the dead around him gave their lives willingly. Given the scene of carnage that greets you after you enter the room, it would seem to indicate that Orsino is lying. Again.

I don't see how Orsino was lying when he told you the truth about knowing the blood mage,Quentin, who murdered the PCs mother.

Perhabs the fallen mages knew what Orsino was planning and submit to it by allowing him to kill them for the cause.

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...


That's true. One of the side effects after being made tranquil is that you become emotionaless, however supposedly it does not remove your memories. If Anders and Karl were good friends then how come Karl couldn't remember it, and put two together? If Tranquil could reason and have free will then how come Karl did not excerise them?

it's probable, given the dialog, that Karl believed the Templars would help Anders control himself.  Not with his Vengeance problem, which Karl obviously didn't know about, but with his general rebelliousness and unhappiness.  There's no disputing that Anders is and was a disruptive individual, and a Tranquil would absolutely see that as a problem in need of solving.