1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Magdalena11]

If you read the Enigma of Kirkwall entries it explains some of the wrongness of Kirkwall. It was apparently a site where the veil was already pretty thin and the previous blood mages did more to break the city.

Yes, I think they said a chain was raised between the statues to block the harbor.

When I play I'm definitely going to make sure the mages aren't subjected to templar restriction again. And I'm going to try to prevent the Free Marches and Ferelden from being invaded by the Qunari, since they treat mages even worse than the templars, and try to stabilize the political situation in Orlais, since both sides will be using mages in battle and that won't do anything to help public impression of mages. I think that Justinia is just what the chantry needs to support the human rights of mages based on what I read in Asunder.

Didn't Mr. Darrah say that we could play pro-mage in an interview? It was a while back - I might be misremembering. I wish the latest interviews could be condensed to 10 or 15 minutes. Half an hour or 45 minutes is too long to put up with my intermittent internet connection.

[Lord Raijin]

dragonflight288 wrote...

You mean drive millions of them away from getting their health taken care of, make healing more expensive and raise 6 trillion sovereigns in national debt right? 

Of course, we could make things really cheap and have healers open up free clinics like Anders did.

Taking an advantage of mages and their makers given gift just to get free health care is wrong. Mages have every right to make a living too.

[lil yonce]

Medhia Nox wrote...

- ScarMK: King Alistair forced to march troops into New Lothering after the new Bann hires mages to work his peasants under the influence of Haste magic.

Three peasants died of exhaustion - two were in critical condition from traps placed throughout the fields.

The new Bann claims he was trying to compensate for food shortages

They didn't use haste in tandem with rejuvenation? Amateurs.

And this is a timely topic. The Nevarran circle (wealthy, well-organized, holds political sway, is generally more free than circles elsewhere, have the best schoold mages outside Tevinter according to WoT) got me thinking about mages in the economy recently, and as Nevarra gained most of its wealth from mineral deposits, and is using it grow into a power that rivals Orlais and undermines the Chantry, how about mages in mining? The Nevarran mages had to get their wealth and influence from somewhere...

[Phoenix_Fyre]

Mage supporter here! One of my fav Origins runs was an elf mage, and my M!Hawke is a mage

[Lord Raijin]

I firmly believe that they're far more mage supporters than they're of Templars I just have that gut feeling. It would be nice if Bioware did a survey to actually see which faction receives the most hits.

[TEWR]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Those statues of slaves were only in the Gallows, but the rest of Kirkwall sufffers from the atmosphere of wrong too.

Weren't there 2 ginormous slave statues that guarded the harbor and could like raise a net or something to block it off?

The Twins, yes. And there are numerous other statues scattered throughout the cliffs, seen in the cutscene where you enter Kirkwall.

[DRTJR]

Lord Raijin wrote...

I firmly believe that they're far more mage supporters than they're of Templars I just have that gut feeling. It would be nice if Bioware did a survey to actually see which faction receives the most hits.

I think it's because the Templars are Authoritarian and keep/censor information which both are fairly unpopular on the internet,

[Lord Raijin]

DRTJR wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I firmly believe that they're far more mage supporters than they're of Templars I just have that gut feeling. It would be nice if Bioware did a survey to actually see which faction receives the most hits.

I think it's because the Templars are Authoritarian and keep/censor information which both are fairly unpopular on the internet,

The templars are very much like police officers, and nobody takes kindly to law enforcements who thinks they have the right to beat citizens up just because they wield a badge on their chest.

[vaire]

Both my favorite Warden and my Hawke (who ran away with Anders) are mages so it's pretty clear where my loyalties lie. Since the first game I found the treatment of Mages to be appalling and utterly unable to protect the world from demons; actually quite the contrary.
I wholeheartedly support Mages and understand why Anders/Justice did what he did. Sadly most of the times history doesn't change it's course without bloodshed and fighting for the right of someone to be considered a person not a loaded weapon is definitely worthy.
Think about it: the Aequitarians ended up voting for independence. I find this a clear sign that the Templars and Chantry utterly failed in their role of guardians and helpers becoming nothing more than jailers and oppressors ( after all how could they become anything else given the fact they preventively jail people claiming divine right to do that?). I look forward to see what we will be able to do in order to find an alternative solution to the demonic possession problem in Inquisition.

[Sully13]

I suport the mages myself to bad Anders screws things up for me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

vaire wrote...

Both my favorite Warden and my Hawke (who ran away with Anders) are mages so it's pretty clear where my loyalties lie. Since the first game I found the treatment of Mages to be appalling and utterly unable to protect the world from demons; actually quite the contrary.

Think about it: the Aequitarians ended up voting for independence. I find this a clear sign that the Templars and Chantry utterly failed in their role of guardians and helpers becoming nothing more than jailers and oppressors ( after all how could they become anything else given the fact they preventively jail people claiming divine right to do that?). I look forward to see what we will be able to do in order to find an alternative solution to the demonic possession problem in Inquisition.

I hope you find nothing.
No simple solutions. Nothing but misery and faliure for mages.

I wholeheartedly support Mages and understand why Anders/Justice did what he did. Sadly most of the times history doesn't change it's course without bloodshed and fighting for the right of someone to be considered a person not a loaded weapon is definitely worthy.

But mages ARE weapons as well as perons. And many mages and mage-supporters alike compeltely forget about the first to feed their nice mental image of poor, opressed, righeous mages.

[Sully13]

The fact is there is darkness in both sides of the equation a fully templar run state is totalitarian and a free mage state is just as bad. you need an equaliser. a sort of Unseen university for Fedas that is run or monitored by Templars but allows for freedom foe the Mages.
if you have some one who can melt your skin off the last thing yoy want to do is P*** him off.

[vaire]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]vaire wrote...

Both my favorite Warden and my Hawke (who ran away with Anders) are mages so it's pretty clear where my loyalties lie. Since the first game I found the treatment of Mages to be appalling and utterly unable to protect the world from demons; actually quite the contrary.

Think about it: the Aequitarians ended up voting for independence. I find this a clear sign that the Templars and Chantry utterly failed in their role of guardians and helpers becoming nothing more than jailers and oppressors ( after all how could they become anything else given the fact they preventively jail people claiming divine right to do that?). I look forward to see what we will be able to do in order to find an alternative solution to the demonic possession problem in Inquisition.
[/quote]

I hope you find nothing.
No simple solutions. Nothing but misery and faliure for mages.
[/quote]
You,  good Sir or Madam, are completely entitled to your bitter delusions.. Sorry, slip of the tongue: wishes.  Anyway I would beg you to rein in your righteous rage next time and take time to read what people write before answering since I never said I was looking for a simple solution; like, for example: kill them all. I'm afraid that would be more likely the option a Templar supporter would adopt. I happen to be quite opposed to simplistic solutions for big problems. XD Furthermore I'd like to point out how everybody can be dangerous if mad (Meredith...) and mages are only marginally more of a weapons than trained warriors are. Beside a person is, first of all, a person and so it happens to have some rights (unless you support the idea of disregarding completely the idea of habeas corpus and of individual rights).I wish you the possibility to create your own distopia in the digital world (hopefully that would make you happy).

[quote]
I wholeheartedly support Mages and understand why Anders/Justice did what he did. Sadly most of the times history doesn't change it's course without bloodshed and fighting for the right of someone to be considered a person not a loaded weapon is definitely worthy.[/quote]

But mages ARE weapons as well as perons. And many mages and mage-supporters alike compeltely forget about the first to feed their nice mental image of poor, opressed, righeous mages.[/quote]

[Magdalena11]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I hope you find nothing.
No simple solutions. Nothing but misery and faliure for mages.

But mages ARE weapons as well as perons. And many mages and mage-supporters alike compeltely forget about the first to feed their nice mental image of poor, opressed, righeous mages.

Note the name of the thread.  If someone is posting a pro-mage opinion here it means their attitude toward mages is already set.

I'll give you credit for admitting mages are people as well as weapons this time.    It's fair enough to say mages are capable of offensive spells and can be used by the chantry as weapons.   The templars can even claim the same oppression since they're used the same way.  Neither group is allowed to live their life out from under chantry control.  I have no problem with these statements.  The part where the logic breaks down is in the assumption that is only through the rigid control of the chantry and its templars that all mages don't instantly see the opportunity for power, consort with the nearest demon and sacrifice a child for blood magic before becoming an abomination.  As Anders points out in his rivalry Act 2 questioning beliefs quest, what's wrong with the circle is that for all its emphasis on demons the most common way for a mage to die is to take his own life.

I understand that for the more rabid mage-haters, the suicide or other death of every mage after years of misery is a desirable outcome and the only thing that would be better would be if there was a way to detect magic at birth so children could be tranquilized preemptively.   I'll continue arguing that  this attitude is as wrong as the attitude that a mage has the right to use a victim's life force to cast more powerful spells.

I realize nothing I can say is going to change someone's anti-mage attitude.  Nothing is going to convince me that mages should be imprisoned, beaten, raped, tortured or subjected to starvation if they haven't done anything wrong yet.  

Modifié par Magdalena11, 18 décembre 2013 - 02:38 .

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
And this is a timely topic. The Nevarran circle (wealthy, well-organized, holds political sway, is generally more free than circles elsewhere, have the best schoold mages outside Tevinter according to WoT) got me thinking about mages in the economy recently, and as Nevarra gained most of its wealth from mineral deposits, and is using it grow into a power that rivals Orlais and undermines the Chantry, how about mages in mining? The Nevarran mages had to get their wealth and influence from somewhere...

Your propositions never cease to scare the living dailigths off of me.
That's a compliment.

[MisterJB]

Magdalena11 wrote...
I realize nothing I can say is going to change someone's anti-mage attitude.  Nothing is going to convince me that mages should be imprisoned, beaten, raped, tortured or subjected to starvation if they haven't done anything wrong yet.  

That's a unfair implication. Be pro-mage all you wish but pro-templars have never attempted to convince others that mages should be beaten, raped, tortured or subjected to starvation of they haven't done anything wrong.
We do wish for mages to be separated from non-mages but none of the actions you listed are inherent to the Circle system. That a Templar will beat a mage in the Circle is no more certain than that an Apostate will become an Abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]vaire wrote...

You,  good Sir or Madam, are completely entitled to your bitter delusions.. Sorry, slip of the tongue: wishes.  Anyway I would beg you to rein in your righteous rage next time and take time to read what people write before answering since I never said I was looking for a simple solution; like, for example: kill them all. I'm afraid that would be more likely the option a Templar supporter would adopt. I happen to be quite opposed to simplistic solutions for big problems. XD Furthermore I'd like to point out how everybody can be dangerous if mad (Meredith...) and mages are only marginally more of a weapons than trained warriors are. Beside a person is, first of all, a person and so it happens to have some rights (unless you support the idea of disregarding completely the idea of habeas corpus and of individual rights).I wish you the possibility to create your own distopia in the digital world (hopefully that would make you happy).
[/qutoe]

HAHA
And then you call me dellusional.

My dear Sir, I regret to inform you that mages are aalready treated like people.
They are alredy given all the rights the mundanes are comfortable to givethem wihout compromising their own security.
It mages were really treated as "not persons" then they would be treated as the quanri.
Or worse, they would be killed on sight.

Individual rights? They only exist as a human concept, nothing more.
There is nothing "inherent" in them. Especially not when ones mans right endangers another mans life.

As dellusional Anders said... mages should be free to go where they want and "shoot lightining at fools". And of course, they would be the ones to decide who the fool is.
Sadly such vision of future does not appeal to me.

I see mage supporters with vision of impossible futures. Utopias (at leat in their minds) that can never be.
I'm a realist, so I'm going for a system that works and protects most people most of the time.

[Magdalena11]

MisterJB wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...
I realize nothing I can say is going to change someone's anti-mage attitude.  Nothing is going to convince me that mages should be imprisoned, beaten, raped, tortured or subjected to starvation if they haven't done anything wrong yet.  

That's a unfair implication. Be pro-mage all you wish but pro-templars have never attempted to convince others that mages should be beaten, raped, tortured or subjected to starvation of they haven't done anything wrong.
We do wish for mages to be separated from non-mages but none of the actions you listed are inherent to the Circle system. That a Templar will beat a mage in the Circle is no more certain than that an Apostate will become an Abomination.

Forgive me if I gave the impression that all templars are seeking to abuse their position.    I was replying to Lotion Soronnar's wish that mages should live a life of misery followed by early death and enumerating the examples in game.

I have no issue allowing mages to congregate apart from non-mages.  What I oppose is the idea that rigid control by the templars is the best way to accomplish peace.  The dominant position of the templars allows the abuses I mentioned and the sense of oppression and futility against the system is what drives some mages to be dangerous.    There are power-mad individuals on both sides who will stop at no action to achieve their ends.

Some templars are given to the chantry, like Alistair, and don't get to choose how they are going to live their life.  The point is that if the circle system was different and more fair, both groups would benefit.  

[Lord Raijin]

su lu pi wrote...

I suport the mages myself to bad Anders screws things up for me.

How'd Anders screw things up for you?

[vaire]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
HAHA
And then you call me dellusional.

My dear Sir, I regret to inform you that mages are aalready treated like people.
They are alredy given all the rights the mundanes are comfortable to givethem wihout compromising their own security.
It mages were really treated as "not persons" then they would be treated as the quanri.
Or worse, they would be killed on sight.

Individual rights? They only exist as a human concept, nothing more.
There is nothing "inherent" in them. Especially not when ones mans right endangers another mans life.

As dellusional Anders said... mages should be free to go where they want and "shoot lightining at fools". And of course, they would be the ones to decide who the fool is.
Sadly such vision of future does not appeal to me.

I see mage supporters with vision of impossible futures. Utopias (at leat in their minds) that can never be.
I'm a realist, so I'm going for a system that works and protects most people most of the time. [/quote]       I do fear you are extremely wrong and quite confused about a pair of things, allow me to clarify a point for you: when you are imprisoned during infancy, denied basic privacy, put under custody of armed people trained to kill you and told times and times again, from early childhood, that you are a problem and your life is a gentle concession you are being most definitely not being treated as a person. You are being held captive and, substantially, brainwashed. You are being denied basic human rights thus de facto you are not being treated as a person would be. The fact that there is someone doing worse things than you do to a certain category doesn't make you right at all.Now for your point about human rights I'd like to let you know that our entire social system is a human construction, there is absolutely nothing coming from a higher source. Our very laws are a human construction. Do you realize that following your reasoning any criminal could claim that, after all he is just violating a human construction?Now for the last point: namely being a realist. I'm sad to inform you that you are not because, first of all, the system you support failed and demonstrated not only to be a way for sadistic Templars to torture their charges, but also to push mages toward blood magic and make it much easy for demons to fool them into being possessed. Pushing a people in a corner doesn't make you safer, quite the contrary. Every single person is dangerous: that is why we have laws (human constructs) and education.No Sir, a realist would be searching for a solution that was not a totalitarian distopia.

:wizard:




[/quote]

[HiroVoid]

A system failed after a thousand years of working. Truly a failure.

[MisterJB]

Magdalena11 wrote...
I have no issue allowing mages to congregate apart from non-mages. What I oppose is the idea that rigid control by the templars is the best way to accomplish peace. 

By "separate", I mean that pro-templars wish for magic to not negativelly affect the lives of normal people.
The first step is, naturally, to separate normals from mages but it is not quite neough. After all, a peasant of Orlais may never see the Empress which doesn't change the fact she has a tremendous influence over his life.
Hence, the Templars to ensure that the laws are enforced.

The dominant position of the templars allows the abuses I mentioned and the sense of oppression and futility against the system is what drives some mages to be dangerous.

That is true but so is the opposite. Without restrictions, mages will feel entitled to abuse their magic.
Plus, most of those abuses you mentioned seemed to ocurr only in Kirkwall where there was an issue regarding the accountability of the Order. For instance, Alain claims that Kirkwall is nothing like Starkhaven; that the templars beat the mages and no one said a thing.
Now, that implies that in Starkhaven, either the mages were not beat, or that people spoke against that treatment.

Some templars are given to the chantry, like Alistair, and don't get to choose how they are going to live their life.  The point is that if the circle system was different and more fair, both groups would benefit.  

And how would the normal people of Thedas benefit?

[HiroVoid]

How dare you imply mages aren't normal!

[MisterJB]

HiroVoid wrote...

How dare you imply mages aren't normal!

Because I don't want to have the rest of Thedas defined by mages (mundanes) and in comparison to mages (non-mages).
Hence, normals.

[Beerfish]

I support mages too. Support em from a tree with a rope round their necks I say. My sis in law, Linny was her name. She gets a fine job as a charlady at Redcliffe castle. After years a strugglin on the farm. The bother and her and the kids av some income. Lie ain't so hard as twas it was afor.

Then the mages and demons come about and kill em all. We never saw Linny again but only heard she'd been buried with the rest of the people all ripped up there.

After that we hear about the ole village where I was born some kind of battle there they say Templars and mages that had escaped, wrecked the place, the old town hall burnt ta the ground. My old home burned.

Then we heard the other day that mage has gone and blown up the chantry in that city kirkwall killin our holy mother and a lot of others.

Yes indeed if i had it my way they'd not only lock em all away which is too kind for em. they outta hang em all. I'll tell ya one thing, if one of them ever comes around these parts the town milita has agreed to kill 1st and worry about what else helps after.