1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


As i recall he saved the majority of it at Ostagar.

Saved he majority? How? He escaped with his troops. XD

Which was in effect the majority of the army.

Only the Vanguard and Wardens died in numbers with the King.

[cjones91]

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

I support mages too. Support em from a tree with a rope round their necks I say. My sis in law, Linny was her name. She gets a fine job as a charlady at Redcliffe castle. After years a strugglin on the farm. The bother and her and the kids av some income. Lie ain't so hard as twas it was afor.

Then the mages and demons come about and kill em all. We never saw Linny again but only heard she'd been buried with the rest of the people all ripped up there.

After that we hear about the ole village where I was born some kind of battle there they say Templars and mages that had escaped, wrecked the place, the old town hall burnt ta the ground. My old home burned.

Then we heard the other day that mage has gone and blown up the chantry in that city kirkwall killin our holy mother and a lot of others.

Yes indeed if i had it my way they'd not only lock em all away which is too kind for em. they outta hang em all. I'll tell ya one thing, if one of them ever comes around these parts the town milita has agreed to kill 1st and worry about what else helps after.

One could say the same thing for all of those mage haters....

Mage haters?  I was talkin to old Brutus tother day at the inn.  We all agreed twas a bad lot in life to be a mage.  Why his sisters kid was one and had to be taken away as a youngin.  Tears all around.  We both agreed though that they can't be trusted on their own.  They come into our village looking for help and they'll find nutthin but trouble they will.

Yet all you do is blame your own failures on magic.One could make the argument that maybe you should stop trying to find a scapegoat for your troubles.

What ya be talking about lad?  I blame magic on the deaths of Linny and all tothers in redcliffe.  Mages are nuthin but trouble.  Ever see a mage come into a village or town and not cause trouble n terror?  Thought not.  You can keep yer nasty mages to yerself and if they want to be prancin round the country on their own they git what they deserve, a rope or the stake.

I'd be more worried about raiders and bandits destroying my home and raping my wife/sister/daughter than about some random mage.That's what my village would deal with everyday.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


As i recall he saved the majority of it at Ostagar.

Saved he majority? How? He escaped with his troops. XD

Which was in effect the majority of the army.

Only the Vanguard and Wardens died in numbers with the King.

And all of them were pointless deaths that could've been avoided if Loghain had'nt pulled out at the last minute.

[Veruin]

cjones91 wrote...
I'd be more worried about raiders and bandits destroying my home and raping my wife/sister/daughter than about some random mage.That's what my village would deal with everyday.

It's a good thing we have those guards that are on equal footing with those bandits.

cjones91 wrote...
And all of them were pointless deaths that could've been avoided if Loghain had'nt pulled out at the last minute.

If you think those deaths could've been avoided, you didn't pay much attention to Ostagar.

Modifié par Veruin, 18 décembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Master Warder Z wrote...

vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


As i recall he saved the majority of it at Ostagar.

Saved he majority? How? He escaped with his troops. XD

Which was in effect the majority of the army.

Only the Vanguard and Wardens died in numbers with the King.

Or most of the bravest guys of Ferelden.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


As i recall he saved the majority of it at Ostagar.

Saved he majority? How? He escaped with his troops. XD

Which was in effect the majority of the army.

Only the Vanguard and Wardens died in numbers with the King.

And all of them were pointless deaths that could've been avoided if Loghain had'nt pulled out at the last minute.

Or it could have been a complete disaster and the entirety of the Fereldan army could have been lost.

[Volus Warlord]

I support mages as long as they stay in Circle towers.

[vaire]

Veruin wrote...

vaire wrote...

because a mob of villagers killed her.... That makes her so more dangerous! XD

Yes.. the villagers burned her mansion to the ground (probably after being fed up with her luring young women to her house to "restore" her beauty") and with her dying breath she cast a spell to pull their spirits in the fade so she can rule over them until the end of time.  Yea, that's not at all dangerous. <_<

Not dangerous? Most definitely not, my friend. The question is:were her powers enoughto let her overcome a mob? The answer is no.
Now, think about what it took to get rid of Loghain.
My point is: magic is dangerous? Yes. Maybe even more than a loony with a sword (marginally and depending on the loony). Is politic more or less dangerous than magic?
It appears more. Yet I do not hear people wanting to lock up politicians...

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

I support the mage's graves.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...


As i recall he saved the majority of it at Ostagar.

Saved he majority? How? He escaped with his troops. XD

Which was in effect the majority of the army.

Only the Vanguard and Wardens died in numbers with the King.

And all of them were pointless deaths that could've been avoided if Loghain had'nt pulled out at the last minute.

Considering this battle in hindsight?

Loghain wouldn't have made much of a difference, the majority of the army would have been lost combating the Horde and i doubt it would have been broken.

This really isn't the thread for this, and considering i made a point of agruing this on the Loghain DAI thread i would suggest you going there and reading my agruments to avoid dragging this thread further off topic.

[SgtSteel91]

Volus Warlord wrote...

I support mages as long as they stay in Circle towers.

And their families are allowed to visit the Circle and the mages are allowed to write home.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 18 décembre 2013 - 06:16 .

[Beerfish]

[quote]cjones91 wrote...


[/quote]I'd be more worried about raiders and bandits destroying my home and raping my wife/sister/daughter than about some random mage.That's what my village would deal with everyday.
[/quote]

Oi!  We have the village milita and the Banns men, we can handle oursleves in that regard.  A mage though,. turned into a monster, unstoppable!

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
And this is a timely topic. The Nevarran circle (wealthy, well-organized, holds political sway, is generally more free than circles elsewhere, have the best schoold mages outside Tevinter according to WoT) got me thinking about mages in the economy recently, and as Nevarra gained most of its wealth from mineral deposits, and is using it grow into a power that rivals Orlais and undermines the Chantry, how about mages in mining? The Nevarran mages had to get their wealth and influence from somewhere...

Your propositions never cease to scare the living dailigths off of me. That's a compliment.

. Hehe.

What's the problem? :innocent:

[MisterJB]

vaire wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Yet all you do is blame your own failures on magic.One could make the argument that maybe you should stop trying to find a scapegoat for your troubles.

Beerfish presented a situation where mages destroyed two villages. How are the mages in this situation scapegoats rather than criminals?

Because in Thedas there have been far more than two villages destroyed by armies. 
Anecdotical evidence doesn't prove anything but the willingness of the speaker to pin something on someone.

What do armies have to do with anything? Just because armies have destroyed things, doesn't mean the mages who killed all those people are not guilty.

Also, yes, a group of dozens if not hundreds of normal people could come together, buy weapons and armor, formulate a plan and thus destroy a village or two.
Or an eight year old mage boy (Connor) can do the same by his lone self.
Loghain was able to do what he did because he was an hero, because there were darkspawn which justified his actions in the eyes of many, because the people were willing to follow him, because he had allies among the nobles. There were dozens of special circunstances that allowed Loghain to become a powerful man capable of destroying cities.
Connor was capable of destroying a city simply because he was born a mage.
The dangers both pose are not the same and they should not be treated as if they are.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Cant we all just get along?

[Bizantura]

Freedom for all, templars mages and every one else. Both groups are devoid of dignity and freedom and victims of a ludacris societal structure.

Why lock up mages and make a military addict crazed group of caste to gard them?
The problems are the created groups to begin with. It is far more difficult to murder a person let alone some one you know. Every one should belong to the fabric we call family and society.

Will there be mages who succumb to being an abomination, sadly yes. As well as under the people without magic ability there will be cold blooded murderers going on a murder spree.

[jamesp81]

HiroVoid wrote...

Veruin wrote...

vaire wrote...

That would be a justification?  Loghain is insane, not stupid. 

The only "insane" thing about him is his paranoia of Orlais.  (Also given their current track record, I wouldn't say it's not justified.  Most of it anyway.)

Believing the wardens to be in league with Orlais and selling elves to slavery to restock the royal treasury for more war funds are pretty much the only things I wouldn't defend along with the fact that Loghain's a crappy politician and was paranoid about Orlais (not completely unreasonable.  It helped him in The Calling, but he was too paranoid in the events in the game.)

I would not defend him quitting the field at Ostagar either.

But I make these decisions in a lot easier way.  He tried to mess up me and mine, so it's personal now.  And he's going to pay.

[dragonflight288]

What ya be talking about lad? I blame magic on the deaths of Linny and all tothers in redcliffe.

That is rather narrow minded, blaming all of Redcliff's problems simply on magic. There were so many variables going on that removing any one or two of them would've prevented the tragedy from happening.

Yes, if Connor wasn't a mage, then it wouldn't have happened.

However, if Isolde wasn't so desperate to keep her son out of the Circle (because that would mean losing him forever AND their heir) he wouldn't have been in Redcliff for it to have happened.

If Jowan wasn't the apostate brought to her by Loghain (since she admits that the mage she hired to tutor Connor originally was hired by Loghain) then the events of Redcliff wouldn't have happened because Jowan was hired to poison Eamon, and if Eamon hadn't been poisoned then Connor wouldn't have been driven to such desperation that he would allow a desire demon (and he had no idea she was a demon at the time, which is proof that mages need training) to possess him and it never would've happened.

If Isolde hadn't been so determined to keep Eamon from knowing, since Eamon would've sent Connor to the Circle, it wouldn't have happened.

There are so many variables that magic simply cannot be the sole cause of Redcliff and nothing else.

[Veruin]

dragonflight288 wrote...
*snip*

This is all debunked when you consider it from the villagers point of view and who are not privy to that information.  As far as they know, "A mage did it."

Modifié par Veruin, 18 décembre 2013 - 09:07 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually what Isolde was scared of was not losing her son (she certainly had the influence to remain in regular contact with him), but rather the fact that thy would lose their heir, and therefore the family would lose a lot of political power. It was all about the power and money.

[dragonflight288]

Veruin wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
*snip*

This is all debunked when you consider it from the villagers point of view and are not privy to that information.  As far as they know, "A mage did it."

The Blacksmith blamed Isolde if you question him about what Velanna tried telling him, about how she was being secretive. That elf in the bar knows he's giving information to Arl Howe, but is otherwise clueless on causes or effects.

Most aren't even aware of Jowan or a mage's existence until after the fact. So not all the blame is layed on a mage, but much of it, from the people's perspective, is laid on Isolde.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually what Isolde was scared of was not losing her son (she certainly had the influence to remain in regular contact with him), but rather the fact that thy would lose their heir, and therefore the family would lose a lot of political power. It was all about the power and money.

Yet we have multiple sources in the game that talks about how she would lose her son forever, and how a mage cannot inherit a title, and how she felt shame for her own family history and how magic is in it, and that likely had a great deal to do with it as well. She didn't want to lose Connor and she didn't want people to know her son was a mage.

[Dave of Canada]

She paid for her mistake, I punched her out and sliced Connor's throat.

[vaire]

MisterJB wrote...

What do armies have to do with anything? Just because armies have destroyed things, doesn't mean the mages who killed all those people are not guilty.

Also, yes, a group of dozens if not hundreds of normal people could come together, buy weapons and armor, formulate a plan and thus destroy a village or two.
Or an eight year old mage boy (Connor) can do the same by his lone self.
Loghain was able to do what he did because he was an hero, because there were darkspawn which justified his actions in the eyes of many, because the people were willing to follow him, because he had allies among the nobles. There were dozens of special circunstances that allowed Loghain to become a powerful man capable of destroying cities.
Connor was capable of destroying a city simply because he was born a mage.
The dangers both pose are not the same and they should not be treated as if they are.

Sorry, when did I say that mages who killed people are innocent? Please tell me.
Let me explain why I deem this argument of yours a strawman. While I can agree on the fact magic is marginally more powerful than a sword I must point out to you how the Connor incident happened due to the fact people were deliberately mislead in the first place by Isolde and Jowan so no one could do anything for the castle that fell to the undead who could easily, from there, attack the village  which ended up being helpless since between the men gone with the army and those sent on the quest for the ashes the only defense left was a poorly armed and small militia. Bottom line is: the village would have fallen even to a well - organized band of rogues (let me remind you how the undead are not magic undead). Had not been special circumstances in play during the crisis in Redcliff the problem wouldn't have been so great.Now you can tell me that a Mage is more powerful (and thus dangerous) than a warrior, true, but don't try to sell me  that what happened to Redcliffe is a danger that every village risks since what happened was the result of an orchestrated attack against Eamon. Did you speak to the elf in the tavern?Yes magic poses problems but is this a good reason to imprison children that have never harmed anyone? I do not think so; people should be educated not punished before they have the opportunity to do evil things on the basis that they could. My point is that armies and political power have proved to be far more dangerous than magic for the common man and while I sincerely think the dangers of magic exist I also think they are blown out of proportion by a semi-religious hysteria.