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#1026
MisterJB

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vaire wrote...
Sorry, when did I say that mages who killed people are innocent? Please tell me.

You responded to a post of mine where I questioned another user why mages who destroyed towns should be considered scapegoats rather than criminals. Therefore, that implies you also believe that those mages were simply being used as scapegoats and were, thus, innocent.




Let me explain why I deem this argument of yours a strawman. While I can agree on the fact magic is marginally more powerful than a sword

Mages are capable of dragging entire towns into the Fade and there trap them for eternaty while making them relive painful moments over and over again.
To say that magic is only "marginally" more powerful than a sword is incongruent.


I must point out to you how the Connor incident happened due to the fact people were deliberately mislead in the first place by Isolde and Jowan so no one could do anything for the castle that fell to the undead who could easily, from there, attack the village  which ended up being helpless since between the men gone with the army and those sent on the quest for the ashes the only defense left was a poorly armed and small militia. Bottom line is: the village would have fallen even to a well - organized band of rogues (let me remind you how the undead are not magic undead). Had not been special circumstances in play during the crisis in Redcliff the problem wouldn't have been so great.Now you can tell me that a Mage is more powerful (and thus dangerous) than a warrior, true, but don't try to sell me  that what happened to Redcliffe is a danger that every village risks since what happened was the result of an orchestrated attack against Eamon.

No, what happened to Redcliff was a result of someone being born with magic. The only way that conspirancy against Eamon influenced the outcome was by causing him to be sick and thus making Connor's emotions run wild. However, the death of loved ones is a fact of life and Eamon could have fallen sick for any other reason which would have resulted in the very same result. Connor making a deal with a demon who would then prey on the village. And the applies to every mage out there. Meredith's sister became an Abomination and killed 70.
The fact that it would have taken an army of normal people in order to cause the same tragedy a mage child did without even meaning to only strengthens my point. Mages are far too dangerous to be allowed the same freedoms as normal peopl.



Yes magic poses problems but is this a good reason to imprison children that have never harmed anyone?

 Yes. That way, the chances of them harming others are lessened.
Everyone who lives in a society sees their freedoms restricted so that we may coexist peacefully. This occurs not because we have given evidence that we're dangerous but because the possibility is always there.
If some people are capable of punching while others can conjure fire, it follows that the latter are more dangerous than the former and the restriction upon their freedoms must be harsher in order to reflect this.



people should be educated not punished before they have the opportunity to do evil things on the basis that they could.

They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.

My point is that armies and political power have proved to be far more dangerous than magic for the common man

How many non-mages in Ferelden had the political power to pull armies together in order to destroy cities? 10? 15?
And how many mage could destroy cities by themselves? Every single one of them. All they have to do is be possessed.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 décembre 2013 - 09:46 .


#1027
Grieving Natashina

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I think my signature sums it up.

#1028
vaire

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MisterJB wrote...
You responded to a post of mine where I questioned another user why mages who destroyed towns should be considered scapegoats rather than criminals. Therefore, that implies you also believe that those mages were simply being used as scapegoats and were, thus, innocent.


Yet another strawman, my friend, let me explain why: I responded that when the only evidence you can offer is an anecdotical evidence over a broad statement that places the blame of few on a whole category of people you are using those people as scapegoats. XD


Mages are capable of dragging entire towns into the Fade and there trap them for eternaty while making them relive painful moments over and over again.
To say that magic is only "marginally" more powerful than a sword is incongruent.


A single very powerfoul blood mage (she took down an high dragon alone) possessed by a pride demon (the most powerful demon we know of thus far was able to. Do you realize that what you just said is like saying that since Alexander the Great was able to conquer more than the known world once every single person with a good strategical mind can?

No, what happened to Redcliff was a result of someone being born with magic. The only way that conspirancy against Eamon influenced the outcome was by causing him to be sick and thus making Connor's emotions run wild. However, the death of loved ones is a fact of life and Eamon could have fallen sick for any other reason which would have resulted in the very same result. Connor making a deal with a demon who would then prey on the village. And the applies to every mage out there. Meredith's sister became an Abomination and killed 70.
The fact that it would have taken an army of normal people in order to cause the same tragedy a mage child did without even meaning to only strengthens my point. Mages are far too dangerous to be allowed the same freedoms as normal peopl.


Again you are oversimplifying, the plan was simply to make Arl Eamon kick the bucket and when the opportunity to ruin Redcliff too rose Loghain's men took it. What happened would not have happened had the situation not been so chaotic to begin with: people lying to their own allies (Isolde) and a willing sabotage of the boy's education in the arcane arts by Jowan. Besides what you mentioned are two cases while there are far more than two children living as apostates and not causing disasters: see the whole Hawke family for an example. In fact most of the times mages turn to demons if uneducated (Connor) or extremely desperate. Beside even if you were right and what happened was a simple consequence of a mage child faced with the facts of life and deprived of a kindly Templar ready to kill him like an animal at the first sign of desperation: how comes that the Dalish manage to have free mages leading them? Or that humans managed to create a society at all with the "danger of magic" looming over them?
This logic you are following is extremely weak.

 Yes. That way, the chances of them harming others are lessened.
Everyone who lives in a society sees their freedoms restricted so that we may coexist peacefully. This occurs not because we have given evidence that we're dangerous but because the possibility is always there.
If some people are capable of punching while others can conjure fire, it follows that the latter are more dangerous than the former and the restriction upon their freedoms must be harsher in order to reflect this.


You are missing a key point: we humans are dangerous. Extremely dangerous (and we also have ample proof of that), we are a very rare example of an animal almost completely devoid of inibitions that makes us dangerous first and foremost to ourselves that is exactly why we create social structures that allow us tyo coexist without behaving like deers in a too small fenced space. Now, there will always be individuals more dangerous than others. See, for example, a big person with a serious mental disease that could turn him violent. What do we do in such cases? Lock him up and throw away the key? Or what of a veteran with PTSD? He is sure as hell more dangerous than I'll ever be in my whole life yet I don't wish to see him caged like an animal but helped. Restrictions on someone's freedom do not always work. Sometimes the problem is quite the opposite.

They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.
How many non-mages in Ferelden had the political power to pull armies together in order to destroy cities? 10? 15?
And how many mage could destroy cities by themselves? Every single one of them. All they have to do is be possessed.

[

First of all: no they are being locked up and denied basic human rights like the right to life, the freedom of movement, not to mention the fact no-one would ever point a sword at your family to take you from them (never to see them again). I'm sorry wearing clothes causes you such a trauma. XD
As for the education again you are missing the point I was trying to make: it has been proved again and again that the Circle instead of educating Mages to use their powers cautiously educates them to live in fear. Splendid plan considered demons use that to possess them. Besides this argument about education was used by people that forced their children into seminary until not too long ago....
How many non mages can destroy cities? Any general. How many can destroy villages? Even a band of powerful raiders. Far more than 10 or 15. I'd like to remind you what you hear from merchants about the civil war in Origins. As for the mages it is not true that any of them could destroy a city if possessed, were that true Uldred would have conquered the world given how many abominations there were in the circle tower and the Baroness would most definitely not have been burned with her mansion by an angry mob of fishermen.
As I told you: yes there are dangers, but not as many as you make out to be otherwise many key facts in the world of Thedas would be very different. It is a matter of logic, nothing more nothing less.Image IPB

#1029
Hellion Rex

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MisterJB wrote...
They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.


A gilded cage is still a cage.

#1030
Master Warder Z_

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eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.


A gilded cage is still a cage.


Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.

Never really was a fan of the whole mindset; Lets set out to defeat one apoclaypse only to let sentimentality start another.

#1031
Hellion Rex

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Master Warder Z wrote...

Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.

Never really was a fan of the whole mindset; Lets set out to defeat one apoclaypse only to let sentimentality start another.


Require the cage? Maybe. Deserve it? Not a chance in hell. Nobody deserves that kind of life.  
And mere sentimentality is hardly what drives me to defend them. 

#1032
The Baconer

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Master Warder Z wrote...
Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.


That's a strange thought. What do people deserve? Is there some inherent value within a lineage, that all nobels born from it deserve their authority and wealth?  Would they deserve to be subjects in the face of a new ruling class?

#1033
SgtSteel91

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Why can't a mage be let out after, like, 10-15 years staying in a Circle? I'd think after 10 or so years without any sever incident they have proven that they can keep a lid on their powers and demonic temptation.

#1034
Master Warder Z_

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The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.


That's a strange thought. What do people deserve? Is there some inherent value within a lineage, that all nobels born from it deserve their authority and wealth?  Would they deserve to be subjects in the face of a new ruling class?


What do people deserve? That's a question widely answered by the society it self in most cases no?

In Thedas the answer is "Mages need the circle" Its therefore a simple leap to stating they deserve because the majority would agree with it no? 

#1035
Master Warder Z_

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eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.

Never really was a fan of the whole mindset; Lets set out to defeat one apoclaypse only to let sentimentality start another.


Require the cage? Maybe. Deserve it? Not a chance in hell. Nobody deserves that kind of life.  
And mere sentimentality is hardly what drives me to defend them. 


They both require and deserve it, it is what a is to be a mage in the land of the white chantry after all. If they want to be Overlords of the common man then they should flee to the Imperium.

And So it isn't some delusion ridden tripe of them needing Freedom and what have you like the majority of people i have noticed within the forums?

#1036
Afro_Explosion

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If mages require a cage we should make sure it's less hell more hogwarts.

#1037
Sir DeLoria

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The circle is great, it just might need a reform. How many mages have gone mad with power or lost control? The risks of free, uncontrolled mages are just too high.

#1038
Hellion Rex

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mx_keep13 wrote...

If mages require a cage we should make sure it's less hell more hogwarts.


Hear, hear!

#1039
SgtSteel91

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Yeah people shouldn't be afraid to go to a place where they can learn to control their powers so it doesn't hurt anyone and they can do cool stuff with it like shoot lightning.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 18 décembre 2013 - 11:55 .


#1040
vaire

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Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.


A gilded cage is still a cage.


Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.

Never really was a fan of the whole mindset; Lets set out to defeat one apoclaypse only to let sentimentality start another.



No need for "sentimentality", your dreaded apocalypse has already started!
Don't worry, it wasn't sentimentality that caused it, but rage.
In fact for the Aequitarians to vote for independence the amount of rage must have been quite high. Image IPB
Call me stupid but I'd rather have sentimentality than rage.

As for the cage people "require or deserve" apparently even their moderates, like Wynne, happen to disagree with you. Last time one group of people decided for another what cage they needed or deserved basing such judgement upon fear it didn't end well..

#1041
Master Warder Z_

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mx_keep13 wrote...

If mages require a cage we should make sure it's less hell more hogwarts.


AU and all that, completely diffrent in that universe you do not fall pray to demonic temptation merely by lacking the will to use magic and mana properly.

In that universe apparently wands are more popular then staves and finally the circle is a product of its task and it's task isn't a pleasant thing. It is providing a vigil for both mages and the common people of thedas after all, While i do agree the task shouldn't be done overly brutally i also do not see why it would need to be more..."PG".

#1042
Hellion Rex

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Necanor wrote...

The circle is great, it just might need a reform. How many mages have gone mad with power or lost control? The risks of free, uncontrolled mages are just too high.


And so is the risk of overzealous Templars driving mages to those extremes. That has got to be addressed. 

#1043
The Baconer

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Master Warder Z wrote...
What do people deserve? That's a question widely answered by the society it self in most cases no?

In Thedas the answer is "Mages need the circle" Its therefore a simple leap to stating they deserve because the majority would agree with it no?


In the same essence that Elves deserve to be second-class citizens among humans, or that casteless dwarves don't deserve rights?

#1044
SgtSteel91

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Master Warder Z wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

If mages require a cage we should make sure it's less hell more hogwarts.


AU and all that, completely diffrent in that universe you do not fall pray to demonic temptation merely by lacking the will to use magic and mana properly.

In that universe apparently wands are more popular then staves and finally the circle is a product of its task and it's task isn't a pleasant thing. It is providing a vigil for both mages and the common people of thedas after all, While i do agree the task shouldn't be done overly brutally i also do not see why it would need to be more..."PG".


So the mages don't get dissillusioned and want to break out of the Circle, and starting a war like the one right now?

But then again you see magic as a curse, right? I just think it can be used for good if properly trained in a positive environemnt.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 18 décembre 2013 - 11:59 .


#1045
Master Warder Z_

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vaire wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
They are not being punished anymore than you or me are everytime we have to wear clothes to step outside. And they are being educated. The Circle provides an education that only the rich in Thedas can afford.


A gilded cage is still a cage.


Indeed but such a cage is nothing less then they are require or deserve.

Never really was a fan of the whole mindset; Lets set out to defeat one apoclaypse only to let sentimentality start another.



No need for "sentimentality", your dreaded apocalypse has already started!
Don't worry, it wasn't sentimentality that caused it, but rage.
In fact for the Aequitarians to vote for independence the amount of rage must have been quite high. Image IPB
Call me stupid but I'd rather have sentimentality than rage.

As for the cage people "require or deserve" apparently even their moderates, like Wynne, happen to disagree with you. Last time one group of people decided for another what cage they needed or deserved basing such judgement upon fear it didn't end well..


The Mage Rebellion? No that is a far cry from a remarshalled imperium, Even in its present state the mages present less of a threat then the veil tears. So this isn't my view of what an "end of days" warrents, its merely an unforunate situation that will set the circle back decades.

And rage? Hardly it was stupidity, greed and blind ambition from a mage who decided it would be fun to stick a knife into a tranquil and blame it on a enchanter.

And last i recalled Wynne and the entirity of the loyalist faction pre revolt were entirely pro circle so i don't see your agrument here.

#1046
Master Warder Z_

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The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
What do people deserve? That's a question widely answered by the society it self in most cases no?

In Thedas the answer is "Mages need the circle" Its therefore a simple leap to stating they deserve because the majority would agree with it no?


In the same essence that Elves deserve to be second-class citizens among humans, or that casteless dwarves don't deserve rights?


That does seem to be somewhat comparable although i would agrue against mixing Dwarven societial views and Human societial views considering that they do come from two entirely diffrent cultures and species.

So do you have a point?

I never claimed Thedas a bastion of this realities mortality, sense of justice or even base human rights.

It is its own plane with its own views and beliefs on things.

#1047
Master Warder Z_

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SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

If mages require a cage we should make sure it's less hell more hogwarts.


AU and all that, completely diffrent in that universe you do not fall pray to demonic temptation merely by lacking the will to use magic and mana properly.

In that universe apparently wands are more popular then staves and finally the circle is a product of its task and it's task isn't a pleasant thing. It is providing a vigil for both mages and the common people of thedas after all, While i do agree the task shouldn't be done overly brutally i also do not see why it would need to be more..."PG".


So the mages don't get dissillusioned and want to break out of the Circle, and starting a war like the one right now?

But then again you see magic as a curse, right? I just think it can be used for good if properly trained in a positive environemnt.


When they become so dillussioned that they cannot recall why the circles and templars exist in the first place then then only reply obviously is forcing that insight upon them.

And magic is a curse within DA, its something that must be contained, controlled and harnessed within the walls of the circle unless if the chantry or local state deems otherwise. Leaving its use to the whims of mages has on it a historical level basically ruined the world.

#1048
SgtSteel91

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Master Warder Z wrote...

That does seem to be somewhat comparable although i would agrue against mixing Dwarven societial views and Human societial views considering that they do come from two entirely diffrent cultures and species.

So do you have a point?

I never claimed Thedas a bastion of this realities mortality, sense of justice or even base human rights.

It is its own plane with its own views and beliefs on things.


But those views are kinda sh*tty so f**k it, lets flip the table and be the agents of change to make Thedas a better place to live in for everyone.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 19 décembre 2013 - 12:08 .


#1049
vaire

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[quote]Master Warder Z wrote...

No need for "sentimentality", your dreaded apocalypse has already started!
Don't worry, it wasn't sentimentality that caused it, but rage.
In fact for the Aequitarians to vote for independence the amount of rage must have been quite high. Image IPB
Call me stupid but I'd rather have sentimentality than rage.

As for the cage people "require or deserve" apparently even their moderates, like Wynne, happen to disagree with you. Last time one group of people decided for another what cage they needed or deserved basing such judgement upon fear it didn't end well..[/quote]

The Mage Rebellion? No that is a far cry from a remarshalled imperium, Even in its present state the mages present less of a threat then the veil tears. So this isn't my view of what an "end of days" warrents, its merely an unforunate situation that will set the circle back decades.

And rage? Hardly it was stupidity, greed and blind ambition from a mage who decided it would be fun to stick a knife into a tranquil and blame it on a enchanter.

And last i recalled Wynne and the entirity of the loyalist faction pre revolt were entirely pro circle so i don't see your agrument here.



[/quote]

Oh, so is the Imperium you are scared of... Do you realize that such a thing is like fearing the return of the Roman empire in the Middle Ages? XD
Highly unlikely, if not for anything else for the fact it is an agonizing corpse by now and its system doesn't work anymore. Hystory does not go back on its tracks easily.

As for stupidity greed and ambition you are again wrong, it was because mages realized they would not be trusted by the Chantry no matter how much they bowed and scraped to. Rhys (Wynne's son) took over as the leader of the Aequitarians (Wynne's faction) and his vote was for indipendence so: yes the Aequitarians are now (officially) pro independence.
The more you know.Image IPB

#1050
Master Warder Z_

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SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

That does seem to be somewhat comparable although i would agrue against mixing Dwarven societial views and Human societial views considering that they do come from two entirely diffrent cultures and species.

So do you have a point?

I never claimed Thedas a bastion of this realities mortality, sense of justice or even base human rights.

It is its own plane with its own views and beliefs on things.


But those views are kinda sh*tty so f**k it, lets flip the table and be the agents of change to make Thedas a better place to live in for everyone.


I suppose that is your view, i personally view it as a fairly pleasant world for the most apart aside from a few annoyances here and there.

"Better" By making it more like "Reality?" That's sort of negating the point of Bioware crafting an indepth world with its own culture and belief systems when you merely go "I don't agree with these people! I'm gona change the world derp!" 

But do as you will, it doesn't sway me.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 19 décembre 2013 - 12:14 .