1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...


It's not a given that they all need to die. They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been well-lost.

Not so fast.  The conflict will come to a head and some way be 'resolved' however sooner or later some bad things will happen with mages by intent or by accident and a call for the templars to come back in force to protect citizens will come into effect.  Some of the calls may even come from mages themselves as they see themselves subjugated if they go to tevinter or hunted and killed by the common populace because of a bad crop year.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So who here thinks the rest of thedas should submit back to tevinter enslavement? Afterall, it was their land their property now walks around freely on, all because some crazy woman with a anti-tevinter-centric bias imposed her will on everyone else. Maybe all of thedas liked being slaves huh? Why doesn't anyone bring that up?

I doubt anyone here endorses slavery, since they oppose the Chantry controlled Circles. Even a moderate like Irving saw the situation for what it was: "And the Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

He's a fool, letting his property treat him that way.

Disgraceful for a mag e.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


It's not a given that they all need to die. They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been well-lost.

Not so fast.  The conflict will come to a head and some way be 'resolved' however sooner or later some bad things will happen with mages by intent or by accident and a call for the templars to come back in force to protect citizens will come into effect.  Some of the calls may even come from mages themselves as they see themselves subjugated if they go to tevinter or hunted and killed by the common populace because of a bad crop year.

Not that you don't have good points, but what does that have to do with Xil's point? Her contention was that templars shouldn't retake their former positions of power over mages, not how bad mages have it outside of Circle's.

[TurretSyndrome]

I'm as much a Mage supporter as I am, a Templar supporter. I think it's very reasonable to have protection against magic, or a way of self-defense against magic, i.e. the Templar talents. The Templars used to be the protectors of the weak, the ones who are not Mages as well as the weak minded Mages. This protection was to be against a common enemy, not magic, but demons and Maleficarum.

Unfortunately, time made the Templars forget what they are really there for and turned them from being the wardens of the common people, into jailors. So now, so many of them believe, or taught by the Chantry to believe, that Mages themselves are the danger, and granting them the freedom would be as if letting demons lose on the world.

Hopefully, now that they have broken away from the Chantry, at least some of them will go back to being what they were meant to be, rather than just slaughter Mages on sight. 

The only reason I chose to "support" the Mages in Kirkwall, was merely so I can save as many innocent Mages as I can from the blades of the Templars. I'm talking about the Mages who were merely there, and had nothing to do with the conflict. Not to mention the injustice of annulling the entire circle due to the actions taken by one foolish Apostate.

Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 22 octobre 2013 - 05:07 .

[dragonflight288]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

I'm as much a Mage supporter as I am, a Templar supporter. I think it's very reasonable to have protection against magic, or a way of self-defense against magic, the Templar talents. The Templars used to be the protectors of the weak, the ones who are not Mages as well as the weak minded Mages. This protection was to be against a common enemy, not magic, but demons and Maleficarum.

Unfortunately, time made the Templars forget what they are really there for and turned them from being the wardens of the common people, into jailors. So now, so many of them believe, or taught by the Chantry to believe, that Mages themselves are the danger, and granting them the freedom would be as if letting demons lose on the world.

The only reason I chose to "support" the Mages in Kirkwall, was merely so I can save as many innocent Mages as I can from the blades of the Templars. I'm talking about the Mages who were merely there, and had nothing to do with the conflict. Not to mention the injustice of annulling the entire circle due to the actions taken by one foolish Apostate.

Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

You pretty much summed up my overall opinion in a nuthshell. I'm sure we'll have differences when we get into the small details, but overall we agree.

[The_11thDoctor]

Im always a Mage in all RPGs. Only if I do a sec play thru I might go Archer if the class is done right. If not, Im mage for all playthrus

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


It's not a given that they all need to die. They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been well-lost.

Not so fast.  The conflict will come to a head and some way be 'resolved' however sooner or later some bad things will happen with mages by intent or by accident and a call for the templars to come back in force to protect citizens will come into effect.  Some of the calls may even come from mages themselves as they see themselves subjugated if they go to tevinter or hunted and killed by the common populace because of a bad crop year.

Not that you don't have good points, but what does that have to do with Xil's point? Her contention was that templars shouldn't retake their former positions of power over mages, not how bad mages have it outside of Circle's.

They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been
well-lost.

The above is what she said, she didn't say they shouldn't retake their former positions, she said they will not.  Two very different things.

[Beerfish]

TurretSyndrome wrote...


Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Asunder spoilers below:

The only thing Rhys understands is what is good for his waffling self interests.  His mom paid the price so he could have his girl?  ho hum. sounds good to him.  Nice of him to immediately smudge her memory by taking up her place of influence and doing exactly the opposite of what she had stood for most of her life.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


It's not a given that they all need to die. They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been well-lost.

Not so fast.  The conflict will come to a head and some way be 'resolved' however sooner or later some bad things will happen with mages by intent or by accident and a call for the templars to come back in force to protect citizens will come into effect.  Some of the calls may even come from mages themselves as they see themselves subjugated if they go to tevinter or hunted and killed by the common populace because of a bad crop year.

Not that you don't have good points, but what does that have to do with Xil's point? Her contention was that templars shouldn't retake their former positions of power over mages, not how bad mages have it outside of Circle's.

They will not, however, resume their former position of power; it was unearned anyway and has now been
well-lost.

The above is what she said, she didn't say they shouldn't retake their former positions, she said they will not.  Two very different things.

"They will not, however, resume their former position of power..."

So she wants a playthrough where the templars don't take back the power they held over mages for centuries, and it is her opinion that the templars didn't earn the right to be their overseers in the first place.

Okay, but what does that have to do with your point was on how bad it is for mages outside of the circle? That doesn't do anything to agree or refute her point that templars shouldn't have their power, nor does it give a logical reason why they deserved to be their overseers, or earned that right in the first place.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...


Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Asunder spoilers below:

The only thing Rhys understands is what is good for his waffling self interests.  His mom paid the price so he could have his girl?  ho hum. sounds good to him.  Nice of him to immediately smudge her memory by taking up her place of influence and doing exactly the opposite of what she had stood for most of her life.

More Asunder Spoilers

Rhys was also the deciding vote on whether or not mages should declare Independence after Lambert' attack. It was his voice that carried the decision, and that decision was driven by the abuse that had gone on for so long, and all the mages now knew that the templars would never be truly investigated or punished, not with Lambert in charge of the Seekers.

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...


Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Asunder spoilers below:

The only thing Rhys understands is what is good for his waffling self interests.  His mom paid the price so he could have his girl?  ho hum. sounds good to him.  Nice of him to immediately smudge her memory by taking up her place of influence and doing exactly the opposite of what she had stood for most of her life.

More Asunder Spoilers

Rhys was also the deciding vote on whether or not mages should declare Independence after Lambert' attack. It was his voice that carried the decision, and that decision was driven by the abuse that had gone on for so long, and all the mages now knew that the templars would never be truly investigated or punished, not with Lambert in charge of the Seekers.

Yeah, as I said Rhys immediatley took the opposite of what Wynne had stood for for all her life except when she mistakenly believed her little boy was being singled out by the Templars.  Lambert and the red haired mage were the only ones in that book that actually for the better or worse acted consistently through the book and for good reasons of their own.  Most of the rest (all the popular characters like Rhys, Evangeline, Cole, Leliana) were self interested, pure evil or traitors.

Dave Gaider did a great job of writing in that the ones viewed as awful villians truly felt they had just causes and the ones viewed as protagonists when you view their actions through the book were selfish and waffled as it suited them.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...


Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Asunder spoilers below:

The only thing Rhys understands is what is good for his waffling self interests.  His mom paid the price so he could have his girl?  ho hum. sounds good to him.  Nice of him to immediately smudge her memory by taking up her place of influence and doing exactly the opposite of what she had stood for most of her life.

More Asunder Spoilers

Rhys was also the deciding vote on whether or not mages should declare Independence after Lambert' attack. It was his voice that carried the decision, and that decision was driven by the abuse that had gone on for so long, and all the mages now knew that the templars would never be truly investigated or punished, not with Lambert in charge of the Seekers.

Yeah, as I said Rhys immediatley took the opposite of what Wynne had stood for for all her life except when she mistakenly believed her little boy was being singled out by the Templars.  Lambert and the red haired mage were the only ones in that book that actually for the better or worse acted consistently through the book and for good reasons of their own.  Most of the rest (all the popular characters like Rhys, Evangeline, Cole, Leliana) were self interested, pure evil or traitors.

Dave Gaider did a great job of writing in that the ones viewed as awful villians truly felt they had just causes and the ones viewed as protagonists when you view their actions through the book were selfish and waffled as it suited them.

Unfortunately, that is true. But at the same time, it does not diminish the atrocities committed.

Wynne's stance in Awakening was that the Chantry would rather see the mages slaughtered than see the mages free. Lambert proves this before there was a vote.

Rhys also has a very good point about Wynne though, in that she gets far more freedoms than any other mage, including loyalists.

I suppose Wynne's maternal instincts took over when she realized the child that was taken from her arms immediately upon his birth was Rhys, and the templars were singling him out. They didn't care if Rhys was innocent or guilty. They thought he was guilty, and that was nearly all they neded, and then tried to force a confession out of him. That is shown by the templar who pretty much told Rhys to confess or die, as it were.

But that alone makes a good case why it's a bad idea to take mages children away from them at birth. You don't know how they'll react should they ever reunite and recognize each other.

[TurretSyndrome]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...


Something similar happened in Asunder, for which Wynne paid the price with her life, Rhys in the end, understood that.

Asunder spoilers below:

The only thing Rhys understands is what is good for his waffling self interests.  His mom paid the price so he could have his girl?  ho hum. sounds good to him.  Nice of him to immediately smudge her memory by taking up her place of influence and doing exactly the opposite of what she had stood for most of her life.

More Asunder Spoilers

Rhys was also the deciding vote on whether or not mages should declare Independence after Lambert' attack. It was his voice that carried the decision, and that decision was driven by the abuse that had gone on for so long, and all the mages now knew that the templars would never be truly investigated or punished, not with Lambert in charge of the Seekers.

Yeah, as I said Rhys immediatley took the opposite of what Wynne had stood for for all her life except when she mistakenly believed her little boy was being singled out by the Templars.  Lambert and the red haired mage were the only ones in that book that actually for the better or worse acted consistently through the book and for good reasons of their own.  Most of the rest (all the popular characters like Rhys, Evangeline, Cole, Leliana) were self interested, pure evil or traitors.

Dave Gaider did a great job of writing in that the ones viewed as awful villians truly felt they had just causes and the ones viewed as protagonists when you view their actions through the book were selfish and waffled as it suited them.

Wynne chose to give her life so she can save Evangaline's. But the reason she had to do that was because of what Adrian stirred at the Spire. And I said Rhys understood his mother in the end, not follow in her foot steps. My point was, just as what my Mage Hawke had to do, after what Anders pulled, was similar to what Rhys had to choose, after what Adrian had done. 

[dragonflight288]

....

The templar support thread 2.0 is going strong, so I figured I'd try to revive this one.

[SgtSteel91]

I like the warrior class but can I still support mages?

[dragonflight288]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I like the warrior class but can I still support mages?

Sure.

[RobRam10]

I support the Imperium.

[TEWR]

I support cheese.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I support cheese.

Mozarella, Cheddar, Blue Cheese?

[TEWR]

All kinds.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I Support Fan Rages.

[Dio Demon]

dragonflight288 wrote...

....

The templar support thread 2.0 is going strong, so I figured I'd try to revive this one.

All the mages and mage supporters are in hiding. Lest the Templars find us. *Runs back into cave labyrinth nexus*

[TEWR]

Issues of Reform could be a potential worthwhile discussion topic.

First issue, the expansion of the Templar ranks to all people, not just those affiliated with the Andrastian faith. Primarily, the reason driving this is Dwarven Templars, provided any Dwarves would join up.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

....

The templar support thread 2.0 is going strong, so I figured I'd try to revive this one.

Pro-mages don't have with pro templars at least with few protemplars because some (akhm most) of them are bullcraping about things just to kick mages.

Mostly or entirely pro-mages are naive idealists proposing solutions that were already used but crushed by reality or sulutions from space that don't have chance survive in reality.

[SgtSteel91]

Keep the Circles, but not force all mages to live there with no contact with the outside world.

Don't let the Chantry have an army. Keep it secular.

Absorb the Templars, Seekers, and the Inquisition into one Order and be a sort of magical counterpart to the Grey Wardens. Grey Wardens deal in Darkspawn and Blights, the Order deals in Demon's and Veil Tears.