1113 réponses à ce sujet

[Warden661]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Issues of Reform could be a potential worthwhile discussion topic.

First issue, the expansion of the Templar ranks to all people, not just those affiliated with the Andrastian faith. Primarily, the reason driving this is Dwarven Templars, provided any Dwarves would join up.

i personally feel the Templar order should break away from the chantry and become it's own independent order. There's no reason to mix religion into what should be a political matter. I have no problem with letting dwarves and elves in as well. Would help get rid of the religious ties. 

[Dio Demon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Issues of Reform could be a potential worthwhile discussion topic.

First issue, the expansion of the Templar ranks to all people, not just those affiliated with the Andrastian faith. Primarily, the reason driving this is Dwarven Templars, provided any Dwarves would join up.

You could have a triangular solution, this was a solution I was going to use for my book series, a school where the magic users could practice without persecution from the other extremist magic user groups where they would all by monitored by other groups, this fell through for me because it just didn't fit in the context and plus I created more types of magic users.

In that case it was Mages (Elven Casters) watched normal guards, normal guards watched Shielders (Human Casters) and Shielders watched (Mages).

All you have to do is swap Shielders for Templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]SgtSteel91 wrote...

Keep the Circles, but not force all mages to live there with no contact with the outside world.

Don't let the Chantry have an army. Keep it secular.

Absorb the Templars, Seekers, and the Inquisition into one Order and be a sort of magical counterpart to the Grey Wardens. Grey Wardens deal in Darkspawn and Blights, the Order deals in Demon's and Veil Tears.[/quote]


So practically tell me one that your "order" by who will be carried by mages , non-mages or templars?All you want to do is changing templars name.
 
"but not force all mages to live there with no contact with the outside world" this is point of circle separate mages from society because they are dangerous so you are freeing abomnations?

[quote]Crazy Eyed One wrote...
[/quote]

You could have a
triangular solution, this was a solution I was going to use for my book
series, a school where the magic users could practice without
persecution from the other extremist magic user groups where they would
all by monitored by other groups, this fell through for me because it
just didn't fit in the context and plus I created more types of magic
users.

In that case it was Mages (Elven Casters) watched normal
guards, normal guards watched Shielders (Human Casters) and Shielders
watched (Mages).

All you have to do is swap Shielders for Templars.
[/quote]

Now you are doing mess with overcomplicated system that gives and leads to smiliar solution that we have now so practically normal guards are seekers (or at least that was ideal of seekers) shielders are templars only adding that seekers are watched by elven mages which will fall quickly because you asuming that human is lovely and perfect creature and elves will be in charge when mages and elves are hated so i see how normal guards love and respect them practically becoming templars in all but name with power.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[Icy Magebane]

Does anyone agree with mages being allowed to join the Templars? The order is supposed to be about combating maleficar and abominations, and there are many spells specifically based on nullify magic effects. Letting mages be a part of the peacekeeping would eliminate a lot of the conflict between normal people and magic users...

This would be part of a big overhaul to the Circle system, of course... not just have a few mages standing around watching the way Templars do...

[SgtSteel91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

So practically tell me one that your "order" by who will be carried by mages , non-mages or templars?All you want to do is changing templars name.
 
"but not force all mages to live there with no contact with the outside world" this is point of circle separate mages from society because they are dangerous so you are freeing abomnations?

To the first part I would let mages in who have mastered their powers in the Circles and all races be it Dwarf, Elf, or Human.

The second part would allow mages in the cirlces to write home and have either families visit or have have the mages go home to their families when they prove that they have mastery over their powers. Maybe have outings with Templars chaperoning.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:08 .

[TEWR]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Does anyone agree with mages being allowed to join the Templars? The order is supposed to be about combating maleficar and abominations, and there are many spells specifically based on nullify magic effects. Letting mages be a part of the peacekeeping would eliminate a lot of the conflict between normal people and magic users...

This would be part of a big overhaul to the Circle system, of course... not just have a few mages standing around watching the way Templars do...

Mages were sometimes brought along to combat Demons and Abominations, but eventually Demons and Abominations wised up and now it proves to not be so effective.

That said, that doesn't mean it should cease entirely, because even Templar squadrons have failed repeatedly before slaying Demons and Abominations. The arcane is eternal in the Fade, so Demons have no doubt seen Templar abilities in some form (dreams or through magic's innate connection to the Fade) and have begun to strategize more.

Some, anyway. Some Demons just happen to be idiotic still, particulalry the lesser ranks.

Perhaps this might have an effect on increasing resistance to Demonic Possession? Or grant the Mage an ability to focus inward on their own lyrium supply in their body? There were, after all, Templar Rogues in DAII -- as opposed to Rogue Templars, which is something else entirely.

Which indicates a possible difference in how Templar abilities can function.

And it would also help ease Mages into society and be seen in a more benign light.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Does anyone agree with mages being allowed to join the Templars? The order is supposed to be about combating maleficar and abominations, and there are many spells specifically based on nullify magic effects. Letting mages be a part of the peacekeeping would eliminate a lot of the conflict between normal people and magic users...

This would be part of a big overhaul to the Circle system, of course... not just have a few mages standing around watching the way Templars do...

Again naive it is like creating army hobbits and orcs when they hate each other orcs are stronger so they get quickly get control over hobbits and practically what would that get us so having mages who are suprased by number and strenght of templars would end like circle when first enchanter can't do crap when knight commander orders him something. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

So practically tell me one that your "order" by who will be carried by mages , non-mages or templars?All you want to do is changing templars name.
 
"but not force all mages to live there with no contact with the outside world" this is point of circle separate mages from society because they are dangerous so you are freeing abomnations?

To the first part I would let mages in who have mastered their powers in the Circles and all races be it Dwarf, Elf, or Human.

The second part would allow mages in the cirlces to write home and have either families visit or have have the mages go home to their families when they prove that they have mastery over their powers. Maybe have outings with Templars chaperoning.

There is no such thing like mastering power every mage is abomnation bomb no matter whether it is student or master of magic so in practice we have few mages more who can meet with their family even common system do bad job and is restricted as hell so more lax system will work only worse. 

[HiroVoid]

I propose in this mage suppor thread that the mage circle be reformed by having it adopt the qunari stance.

[SgtSteel91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

There is no such thing like mastering power every mage is abomnation bomb no matter whether it is student or master of magic so in practice we have few mages more who can meet with their family even common system do bad job and is restricted as hell so more lax system will work only worse. 

What do you mean by "abomination bomb?" How exactly do mages become abominations?

[TEWR]

HiroVoid wrote...

I propose in this mage suppor thread that the mage circle be reformed by having it adopt the qunari stance.

Anaan Esaam Qun.

[Icy Magebane]

Maybe I should put this in context a little better... a few days ago, in the Templar thread, someone had the idea of granting the mages limited freedom. I guess I could look it up if you want, but the basic idea was to use the Circles as schools, and allow mages to live among normal people. They would have been required to check in with the Templars from time to time so that they don't just disappear into the woods or something, and they would voluntarily provide a phylactery so that they could be tracked... etc... Basically the Templars would be a reactionary police force rather than overseers. Given that most of the hostility mages feel is because they are persecuted, I don't see why they can't just live as peaceful citizens after they've been trained to avoid demonic possession. Mages like Wynne and Irving are not exceptions to the rule. Maleficar are the exceptions, just like normal human criminals are exceptions...

So... given that scenario, would it not be useful to have mages as a part of this peacekeeping force? I don't think it's naive that I don't see mages and ah.. normal people (hate the term "mundane") as natural enemies... why would they be?

Edit:  Wow, that thread is entirely too long... but here is what I was talking about.  It's on this page, written by Hazegurl.

http://social.biowar...10/102#17517690

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:32 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

There is no such thing like mastering power every mage is abomnation bomb no matter whether it is student or master of magic so in practice we have few mages more who can meet with their family even common system do bad job and is restricted as hell so more lax system will work only worse. 

What do you mean by "abomination bomb?" How exactly do mages become abominations?

Well they are fond going abomnation without reason and from nowhere and demons just wait to tempt them which we saw is simple.practically most of mages we seen turn into abomnation just see olivia.    

Icy Magebane wrote...

Maybe I should put this in context a
little better... a few days ago, in the Templar thread, someone had the
idea of granting the mages limited freedom. I guess I could look it up
if you want, but the basic idea was to use the Circles as schools, and
allow mages to live among normal people. They would have been required
to check in with the Templars from time to time so that they don't just
disappear into the woods or something, and they would voluntarily
provide a phylactery so that they could be tracked... etc... Basically
the Templars would be a reactionary police force rather than overseers.
Given that most of the hostility mages feel is because they are
persecuted, I don't see why they can't just live as peaceful citizens
after they've been trained to avoid demonic possession. Mages like
Wynne and Irving are not exceptions to the rule. Maleficar are the
exceptions, just like normal human criminals are exceptions...

So...
given that scenario, would it not be useful to have mages as a part of
this peacekeeping force? I don't think it's naive that I don't see
mages and ah.. normal people (hate the term "mundane") as natural
enemies... why would they be?

Well i don't want repeat but it is naive and totally ignores negative consequences and humans nature as well reality i think that someone played too much d&d games where everything ends perfectly.You automatically assume that let mages join templars will improve their situation but in reality they will be pushed to an insignificant role and their world will mean nothing it is like saying templars protect mages only empty world that should by concept but in reality that isn't in case.And freeing mages who were "trained" but that isn't in case they are often victims of demons as well and well thinking that non-mages will want coexist with them is naive and contrary to human nature who always will hate peoples who are different.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:36 .

[Dio Demon]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Now you are doing mess with overcomplicated system that gives and leads to smiliar solution that we have now so practically normal guards are seekers (or at least that was ideal of seekers) shielders are templars only adding that seekers are watched by elven mages which will fall quickly because you asuming that human is lovely and perfect creature and elves will be in charge when mages and elves are hated so i see how normal guards love and respect them practically becoming templars in all but name with power.

Enh, I gotta becareful how I use my terms. When I mean Human Casters I mean it was a form of magic that originated from Humans, there's been enough interbreeding between the races for each race to have multiple casters.

What I provided was a quick part solution, both Templars and let's say Seekers (I believe they were just Templars without the Lyrium) need to have more ethnic diversity and they both need to be segregated from the Chantry as others had said.

Or we could have a buddy system  bond Templar and Mage so they become best of friends like Big Daddy and Little Sister. I can picture the propaganda and mental conditioning now.

[SgtSteel91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Well they are fond going abomnation without reason and from nowhere and demons just wait to tempt them which we saw is simple.practically most of mages we seen turn into abomnation just see olivia.    

There are some who believe that mages go full on abomination because they fell threatened and turn to extremes like Blood Magic and turining into an Abomination when no other option is available to them. And there are those who believe that mages can be tought and trained to resist temptaions from Demons.

[HiroVoid]

How does a mage use blood magic when there's no other options? We saw mages in the magi origin practicing plenty of other spells to learn how to use them. If a mage suddenly starts using blood magic well, isn't that basically admission that they've practiced blood magic? Even Jowan is implied to have at least read books on how to use it as well as practicing.

[SgtSteel91]

HiroVoid wrote...

How does a mage use blood magic when there's no other options? We saw mages in the magi origin practicing plenty of other spells to learn how to use them. If a mage suddenly starts using blood magic well, isn't that basically admission that they've practiced blood magic? Even Jowan is implied to have at least read books on how to use it as well as practicing.

When up against Templars who can resist or outright null their normal magic and blood magic can get around the Templar's advantage?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Now you are doing mess with overcomplicated system that gives and leads to smiliar solution that we have now so practically normal guards are seekers (or at least that was ideal of seekers) shielders are templars only adding that seekers are watched by elven mages which will fall quickly because you asuming that human is lovely and perfect creature and elves will be in charge when mages and elves are hated so i see how normal guards love and respect them practically becoming templars in all but name with power.

Enh, I gotta becareful how I use my terms. When I mean Human Casters I mean it was a form of magic that originated from Humans, there's been enough interbreeding between the races for each race to have multiple casters.

What I provided was a quick part solution, both Templars and let's say Seekers (I believe they were just Templars without the Lyrium) need to have more ethnic diversity and they both need to be segregated from the Chantry as others had said.

Or we could have a buddy system  bond Templar and Mage so they become best of friends like Big Daddy and Little Sister. I can picture the propaganda and mental conditioning now.

Yeah i see that ethnic only in word not in reality but yeah all peoples from the world started dance and love each other then that music starts play naive solution in da setting maybe would be good in d&d but not here.

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Well
they are fond going abomnation without reason and from nowhere and
demons just wait to tempt them which we saw is simple.practically most
of mages we seen turn into abomnation just see olivia.    

There
are some who believe that mages go full on abomination because they
fell threatened and turn to extremes like Blood Magic and turining into
an Abomination when no other option is available to them. And there are
those who believe that mages can be tought and trained to resist
temptaions from Demons.

Tevinter and many mages in da 2 and dao?

[Icy Magebane]

@TheKomanderShepard - Fair enough. I guess we just don't see the overall goal of the Templars the same way. I also don't believe that people will "always" hate those who are different. Call me naive if you want, but I just don't see the world that way. And no, I do not expect everything to end perfectly, but it can't be any worse than what's already happening in Thedas. Changing things and seeing what happens is better than letting corruption run rampant. Do you have an idea of how to fix things, or do you favor maintaining the status quo out of fear of failing to make the world a better place?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheKomanderShepard - Fair enough. I guess we just don't see the overall goal of the Templars the same way. I also don't believe that people will "always" hate those who are different. Call me naive if you want, but I just don't see the world that way. And no, I do not expect everything to end perfectly, but it can't be any worse than what's already happening in Thedas. Changing things and seeing what happens is better than letting corruption run rampant. Do you have an idea of how to fix things, or do you favor maintaining the status quo out of fear of failing to make the world a better place?

I have idea simple and most effective but probably i will called immoral from peoples who support circle what is more immoral than my idea including fate worse than death.My solution is kill mages and new born mages and problem is over we have money that go to maintain templars and circles , safety from abomnations and other mages danger like zathrian or baroness ,killing them is more merciful than providing them fate worse than death.

So basically solution is simple, effective ,beneficial and mages don't suffer.

Humans tend hate others just simple becase they have different personality you can see that in schools and job even if that person is that color and nationality , racism is the norm humans are monster if you didn't see that read historical books.
   

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:05 .

[Ieldra]

BoBear wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Issues of Reform could be a potential worthwhile discussion topic.

First issue, the expansion of the Templar ranks to all people, not just those affiliated with the Andrastian faith. Primarily, the reason driving this is Dwarven Templars, provided any Dwarves would join up.

i personally feel the Templar order should break away from the chantry and become it's own independent order. There's no reason to mix religion into what should be a political matter. I have no problem with letting dwarves and elves in as well. Would help get rid of the religious ties. 

Indeed. I've always said people with templar skills who can do something against out-of-control magic are very much needed. A non-religious templar organization could work like some mercenary organization, called on at need by secular authorities, and derive their authority from the laws of the nation, which would determine how much magic is to be restricted.

@TheKomandorShepard:
So your solution to the problem that people hate those who are different is to kill all those who are different so that there is no more reason to hate?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:15 .

[Icy Magebane]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheKomanderShepard - Fair enough. I guess we just don't see the overall goal of the Templars the same way. I also don't believe that people will "always" hate those who are different. Call me naive if you want, but I just don't see the world that way. And no, I do not expect everything to end perfectly, but it can't be any worse than what's already happening in Thedas. Changing things and seeing what happens is better than letting corruption run rampant. Do you have an idea of how to fix things, or do you favor maintaining the status quo out of fear of failing to make the world a better place?

I have idea simple and most effective but probably i will called immoral from peoples who support circle what is more immoral than my idea including fate worse than death.My solution is kill mages and new born mages and problem is over we have money that go to maintain templars and circles , safety from abomnations and other mages danger like zathrian or baroness ,killing them is more merciful than providing them fate worse than death.

So basically solution is simple, effective and mages don't suffer.    

lol... yeah okay, I guess there's no chance we're going to agree on this one.  I suppose that would be a solution, though...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheKomanderShepard - Fair enough. I guess we just don't see the overall goal of the Templars the same way. I also don't believe that people will "always" hate those who are different. Call me naive if you want, but I just don't see the world that way. And no, I do not expect everything to end perfectly, but it can't be any worse than what's already happening in Thedas. Changing things and seeing what happens is better than letting corruption run rampant. Do you have an idea of how to fix things, or do you favor maintaining the status quo out of fear of failing to make the world a better place?

I have idea simple and most effective but probably i will called immoral from peoples who support circle what is more immoral than my idea including fate worse than death.My solution is kill mages and new born mages and problem is over we have money that go to maintain templars and circles , safety from abomnations and other mages danger like zathrian or baroness ,killing them is more merciful than providing them fate worse than death.

So basically solution is simple, effective and mages don't suffer.    

lol... yeah okay, I guess there's no chance we're going to agree on this one.  I suppose that would be a solution, though...

If you have objections well you can tell maybe i don't see something but i guess probably it will land on "it is
immoral" and i want note that morality is rather your personal view and that you see something wrong doesn't mean that other person will see that as well.

Ieldra2 wrote...

BoBear wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Issues of Reform could be a potential worthwhile discussion topic.

First
issue, the expansion of the Templar ranks to all people, not just those
affiliated with the Andrastian faith. Primarily, the reason driving
this is Dwarven Templars, provided any Dwarves would join up.

i
personally feel the Templar order should break away from the chantry
and become it's own independent order. There's no reason to mix religion
into what should be a political matter. I have no problem with letting
dwarves and elves in as well. Would help get rid of the religious ties. 

Indeed.
I've always said people with templar skills who can do something
against out-of-control magic are very much needed. A non-religious
templar organization could work like some mercenary organization, called
on at need by secular authorities, and derive their authority from the
laws of the nation, which would determine how much magic is to be
restricted.

Now you are assume that authorities are pure and well-intendionet which isn't in case as well templars as mercenaries yes because mercenaries are such nice and good peoples ups wait this isn't d&d only dragon age.

Ieldra2 wrote...


@TheKomandorShepard:
So your
solution to the problem that people hate those who are different is to
kill all those who are different so that there is no more reason to
hate?

Well pretty much but it is more in that it won't stop hatred mages but it will prevent becoming a victim of that hate but it isn't major point mages are reason behind many disaster even without abomnations it will stop that all but to describe that well i must write more and now im in lazy mood.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[Ieldra]

@TheKomandorShepard:
I have an alternative: kill all non-mages instead. That would work, too, right?

About a secular templar organization: I hold that religious organizations are instrinsically vulnerable to prejudice, hypocrisy and delusion. No doubt having a secular organization would come with its own problems, but they'd be more open to appeals instead of mentally closed off by their ideology. I'd rather deal with a self-interested, greedy organization than an ideologically fanatical and hidebound one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:23 .

[SgtSteel91]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard:
I have an alternative: kill all non-mages instead. That would work, too, right?

**** it, kill all humans becasue according to the Komandor humans are monsters so they should all just die. Apparently it's in our nature to hate each other so if everyone died then there would be no problems. And it's not immoral because I don't think it's immoral

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .