1113 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

Edit:

Sorry pressed wrong button 

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The problem with mage possesion is that there is no way to "master" resistance to demons. There is no way to measure it, track it, or say "this person is demon-proof".
Mastery of magic is a compeltely different thing from resisting demons. In fact, (and ironicly) the more powerfull a amge you are, the mroe attractive you are to demons.


Possesion is about willpower, personality, temptation and emotional stability. Those are fluid and changing, they are not fixed values.
How many times does a normal, healthy human get into emotional turmoil? How many times does his mental state change depending on thousands of factors? Drink? Depression? Annoyance? Anger? Love?

Heck, people have a tendacy to occasionaly do crazy stuff for NO REASON WHATSOEVER otehr than "I felt like it". You do soemthingstupid and then go "why the hell did I do that? What on earth made me think it was a good idea?"

The realtiy is that we humans are fickle creatures prone to bad decisions and times of insanity.

This is why a mage is always considered a danger. No matter how well trained.
But at least older mages have built up a rapport with templars and a measure of trust - hence why they are considered a lesser danger and allowed to leave the tower unsupervised.

[TEWR]

Indeed. I've always said people with templar skills who can do something against out-of-control magic are very much needed. A non-religious templar organization could work like some mercenary organization, called on at need by secular authorities, and derive their authority from the laws of the nation, which would determine how much magic is to be restricted.

It'd be great if the Chantry taught these practices to police organizations, like say Kirkwall's City Guard.

[Icy Magebane]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

If you have objections well you can tell maybe i don't see something but i guess probably it will land on "it is
immoral" and i want note that morality is rather your personal view and that you see something wrong doesn't mean that other person will see that as well.

Well, I'm trying to be fair about this, but ultimately yes, it does come down to morality.  I don't see mass infanticide as acceptable.  I'm not trying to judge you, but that's how I feel about it.  The solution is far too extreme and it ignores the fact that demonic possession and the spread of maleficarum can be combatted.  It ignores the potential good that magic users can do for the world, such as helping in even mundane tasks like digging irrigation ditches or building homes. 

See, this is the problem... you are taking the easy way out by just killing them all before they can cause harm.  In doing so, you take away a potential benefit from society as a whole... beings capable of manipulating the physical world and making huge strides in national production.  Remember how humanity was able to do incredible things when they discovered fire?  Or chemistry?  Why would you knowingly remove the potential for even greater advancements?

Your entire point seems to be that mages cannot be trained to resist demons and that they cannot be taught to use their powers responsibly.  This is false, and we have many examples to prove that this is so.  The majority of the Ferelden Circle weren't troublemakers... even Godwin, the cowardly mage you can smuggle lyrium to, was able to maintain his sanity.  There are troublemakers in the real world... does that mean that everyone should die to avoid problems in the future?  I mean... it just doesn't make sense not to give people a chance to show that they can be trusted...

A system of training, limited freedom, and careful (non-intrusive) monitoring is preferable, as it allows mages to simply live as normal citizens and use their incredible powers for the benefit of society.  And if they get out of control or use these powers to harm others?  Then you punish them.  Not before a crime has been committed.

Edit:  In the School of Creation alone there is the potential to completely surpass even the medical technology we have in the real world.  Why would you want to eliminate this possibility?  There will always be people who want to cause harm... being born a mage does not increase the chances of you becoming one.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[SgtSteel91]

Maybe the answer isn't kill all mages but kill all spirits and demons. They are the ones ****ing everything up and temping mages into possession. No demons means no possession and no more abomination bombs.

Edit:

There is a convenient tear in the veil that would allow an army to march in and kill all demons on site.

Edit, part deux:
Or maybe construct some sort of device or spell that would require the resources of all of Thedas to be pulled together, a Crucible if you will, that would somehow destroy all spirits in the Fade.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:34 .

[Icy Magebane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The problem with mage possesion is that there is no way to "master" resistance to demons. There is no way to measure it, track it, or say "this person is demon-proof".
Mastery of magic is a compeltely different thing from resisting demons. In fact, (and ironicly) the more powerfull a amge you are, the mroe attractive you are to demons.


Possesion is about willpower, personality, temptation and emotional stability. Those are fluid and changing, they are not fixed values.
How many times does a normal, healthy human get into emotional turmoil? How many times does his mental state change depending on thousands of factors? Drink? Depression? Annoyance? Anger? Love?

Heck, people have a tendacy to occasionaly do crazy stuff for NO REASON WHATSOEVER otehr than "I felt like it". You do soemthingstupid and then go "why the hell did I do that? What on earth made me think it was a good idea?"

The realtiy is that we humans are fickle creatures prone to bad decisions and times of insanity.

This is why a mage is always considered a danger. No matter how well trained.
But at least older mages have built up a rapport with templars and a measure of trust - hence why they are considered a lesser danger and allowed to leave the tower unsupervised.

If this were true, the Tevinter Imperium would never have existed.  At some point, we all need to accept that it is possible for mages to avoid demonic possession.  History has proven this.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard:
I have an alternative: kill all non-mages instead. That would work, too, right?

About a secular templar organization: I hold that religious organizations are instrinsically vulnerable to prejudice, hypocrisy and delusion. No doubt having a secular organization would come with its own problems, but they'd be more open to appeals instead of mentally closed off by their ideology. I'd rather deal with a self-interested, greedy organization than an ideologically fanatical and hidebound one.

To be honest from mage side it wouldn't be stupid solution but it won't  happen why because we have more non-mages a lot more than mages and non-mages found how protect themselves like templars so we have both side who will abuse each other only solution to stop is destroy one side so if we will kill non-mages mages won't abuse them and mages don't have to fear them if we kill mages non-mages don't have fear mages and won't abuse them.But killing mages is way more practical (from my own side)  because they are small in numbers comparing to non-mages and deliver much more problems (abomnations and smliar things) and deliver little benefit.

]

****
it, kill all humans becasue according to the Komandor humans are
monsters so they should all just die. Apparently it's in our nature to
hate each other so if everyone died then there would be no problems. And
it's not immoral because I don't think it's immoral

If you are from race xxx and you meet humans i don't see why not but expect resistance because survival instinct if you ask me humans are monsters but they are number 1 so mages and elves won't get rid of them i will say that might makes right thats how world works and i don't say that it isn't immoral sure think what do you want i don't claim that i m good person i look on that more practical than it is right or wrong and what is right or wrong is rather matter of perspective don't you think?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:44 .

[SgtSteel91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

If you are from race xxx and you meet humans i don't see why not but expect resistance because survival instinct if you ask me humans are monsters but they are number 1 so mages and elves won't get rid of them i will say that might makes right thats how world works and i don't say that it isn't immoral sure think what do you want i don't claim that i m good person i look on that more practical than it is right or wrong and what is right or wrong is rather matter of perspective don't you think?

Your right, it's all a matter of perspective.

I think you are a terrible fatalist and your perspective is wrong.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

If you have objections well you can tell maybe i don't see something but i guess probably it will land on "it is
immoral" and i want note that morality is rather your personal view and that you see something wrong doesn't mean that other person will see that as well.

Well, I'm trying to be fair about this, but ultimately yes, it does come down to morality.  I don't see mass infanticide as acceptable.  I'm not trying to judge you, but that's how I feel about it.  The solution is far too extreme and it ignores the fact that demonic possession and the spread of maleficarum can be combatted.  It ignores the potential good that magic users can do for the world, such as helping in even mundane tasks like digging irrigation ditches or building homes. 

See, this is the problem... you are taking the easy way out by just killing them all before they can cause harm.  In doing so, you take away a potential benefit from society as a whole... beings capable of manipulating the physical world and making huge strides in national production.  Remember how humanity was able to do incredible things when they discovered fire?  Or chemistry?  Why would you knowingly remove the potential for even greater advancements?

Your entire point seems to be that mages cannot be trained to resist demons and that they cannot be taught to use their powers responsibly.  This is false, and we have many examples to prove that this is so.  The majority of the Ferelden Circle weren't troublemakers... even Godwin, the cowardly mage you can smuggle lyrium to, was able to maintain his sanity.  There are troublemakers in the real world... does that mean that everyone should die to avoid problems in the future?  I mean... it just doesn't make sense not to give people a chance to show that they can be trusted...

A system of training, limited freedom, and careful (non-intrusive) monitoring is preferable, as it allows mages to simply live as normal citizens and use their incredible powers for the benefit of society.  And if they get out of control or use these powers to harm others?  Then you punish them.  Not before a crime has been committed.

Edit:  In the School of Creation alone there is the potential to completely surpass even the medical technology we have in the real world.  Why would you want to eliminate this possibility?  There will always be people who want to cause harm... being born a mage does not increase the chances of you becoming one.

So your first argument is that it is unacceptable which is based on your morals so i skip that.
Second your argument is that mages can bring something good to society here i will argue because their advantages<<<<<disadvantages sure healing is useful but in that universe heavy restricted by rules of magic and mages are weak comparing to mages from others universes and there mages don't have such problems as demons.Da is cynical setting and focuses on dark human nature and ferelden circle is excellent example that even one mage can huge cause disaster as well many others main quests.So now compare that good things that mages did in da and what bad so nope having mages isn't benefit because disadvantages overwhelm advantages.

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Maybe the answer isn't kill all mages
but kill all spirits and demons. They are the ones ****ing everything up
and temping mages into possession. No demons means no possession and no
more abomination bombs.

Edit:

There is a convenient tear in the veil that would allow an army to march in and kill all demons on site.

Edit, part deux:
Or
maybe construct some sort of device or spell that would require the
resources of all of Thedas to be pulled together, a Crucible if you
will, that would somehow destroy all spirits in the Fade.

It wouldn't be bad solution but it is hardly possible because:
1)We don't know how demons existence works it seems at least some demons if killed in real world return to the fade perhaps they will reborn even if they are killed in fade and they can't be killed.
2)Demons are very powerful (at least that is stated that way) and we don't know how much we have demons and look ^1 so possible even if we throw every human , elf and dwarf with mages involved to fight them thats may be not enough.
3)How do you intend go to the fade when it requires lyrium or blood and more how do you want transport there army?     

SgtSteel91 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

If
you are from race xxx and you meet humans i don't see why not but
expect resistance because survival instinct if you ask me humans are
monsters but they are number 1 so mages and elves won't get rid of them i
will say that might makes right thats how world works and i don't say
that it isn't immoral sure think what do you want i don't claim that i m
good person i look on that more practical than it is right or wrong and
what is right or wrong is rather matter of perspective don't you think?

Your right, it's all a matter of perspective.

I think you are a terrible fatalist and your perspective is wrong.

If you want argue with that your choice but i think that you need talk with reality.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:10 .

[RobRam10]

The true answer is to bow before the Imperium and to enslave the non-mages once again.

[Icy Magebane]

@TheKomanderShepard - I'm glad you skipped the first part, because that was only my initial reaction. If you disagree with the logic of having a farmer around who is capable of creating ice and then melting it in case the weather doesn't want to cooperate, then I'm going to have to say that's being short-sighted. Magic has many applications, and could be a huge benefit to the world. You don't need to make comparisons to any other universe to see that. However, you seem convinced that mages have no way of resisting demons and are almost always going to abuse their powers, because it's just human nature to want to harm others? Human society should be enough evidence that we are not inherently self-destructive. The economic potential alone should be enough to motivate mages to cooperate and not just murder everyone they see...

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that the rebellion in the Circle had a cause. Justified or not, the mages involved thought they were being oppressed and wanted freedom. They didn't just start attacking for no reason (again, I am not saying if it was a good or bad reason, just that they had a reason to do it). If they weren't in that position in the first place, why would they randomly start killing people? That isn't normal human behavior.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:25 .

[Ieldra]

RobRam10 wrote...
The true answer is to bow before the Imperium and to enslave the non-mages once again.

Nah, much too risky. They might rebel, and what do we have then? Chaos! Mayhem! According to TheKomandorShepard it would be best to kill them all.

*** Voice from space: "All non-mages will always try to control or destroy mages" *** ***Later: you can (a) destroy all mages, ( ascend to become the ultimate mage and ruler of the Golden CIty, © make everyone join with a random spirit.***

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheKomanderShepard - I'm glad you skipped the first part, because that was only my initial reaction. If you disagree with the logic of having a farmer around who is capable of creating ice and then melting it in case the weather doesn't want to cooperate, then I'm going to have to say that's being short-sighted. Magic has many applications, and could be a huge benefit to the world. You don't need to make comparisons to any other universe to see that. However, you seem convinced that mages have no way of resisting demons and are almost always going to abuse their powers, because it's just human nature to want to harm others? Human society should be enough evidence that we are not inherently self-destructive. The economic potential alone should be enough to motivate mages to cooperate and not just murder everyone they see...

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that the rebellion in the Circle had a cause. Justified or not, the mages involved thought they were being oppressed and wanted freedom. They didn't just start attacking with for reason (again, I am not saying if it was a good or bad reason, just that they had a reason to do it). If they weren't in that position in the first place, why would they randomly start killing people? That isn't normal human behavior.

I don't think humans harm others only for lolz but still it is case but they will do that for convenience what for example money and power offer and other reason are conflicting or different ideals and generally differences.Well if you don't know society runs on might make right punishing everyone for not following whatever society want you follow and now still societes are full of corruption and di*** toward each other because human nature. And as i said small help in farming (what isn't necessary) won't balance or overhelm burning city or army of werewolves.

Ieldra2 wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...
The true answer is to bow before the Imperium and to enslave the non-mages once again.

Nah,
much too risky. They might rebel, and what do we have then? Chaos!
Mayhem! According to TheKomandorShepard it would be best to kill them
all.

*** Voice from space: "All non-mages will always try to
control or destroy mages" *** ***Later: you can (a) destroy all mages,
( ascend to become the ultimate mage and ruler of the Golden CIty, ©
make everyone join with a random spirit.***

Well best for who for non-mages not for mages well that would be good but from where they will get blood to try become god?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:41 .

[Icy Magebane]

@TheKomandorShepard - So basically, the damage that might be caused by a misanthropic mage greatly exceeds the potential benefit to society posed by several peaceful mages... and the risk is so great that mages should all be killed before committing any crimes. Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm not going to sit here and rattle off all the possible uses for telekinesis, pyrokinesis, and reality warping in general, but this seems to be the main point we can't agree on. I see magic as too valuable to throw away, you think it's not worth the risk. Even if we don't agree, it was interesting to hear your perspective, at least.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TheKomandorShepard - So basically, the damage that might be caused by a misanthropic mage greatly exceeds the potential benefit to society posed by several peaceful mages... and the risk is so great that mages should all be killed before committing any crimes. Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm not going to sit here and rattle off all the possible uses for telekinesis, pyrokinesis, and reality warping in general, but this seems to be the main point we can't agree on. I see magic as too valuable to throw away, you think it's not worth the risk. Even if we don't agree, it was interesting to hear your perspective, at least.

Well see tevinter and their peacful mages and well technology do better job than magic at least da magic see qunari vs tevinter.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Well, I'm trying to be fair about this, but ultimately yes, it does come down to morality.  I don't see mass infanticide as acceptable.  I'm not trying to judge you, but that's how I feel about it.

Well, morailty is a sticky issue when NOT doing X can lead to an even worse outcome. Would refusing action to perserve ones "purity" and ease of mind be even more immoral? Can it be called immoral?
One can debate this forever.

The solution is far too extreme and it ignores the fact that demonic possession and the spread of maleficarum can be combatted.

How exactly?

It ignores the potential good that magic users can do for the world, such as helping in even mundane tasks like digging irrigation ditches or building homes.

How exactly ?
Since mages do help out by creating magical items, researhcing spells and doing occasional work. And mages diging ditches is a waste of their talents.
One can always argue that mages could hlep MORE...but you can always use that argument.

See, this is the problem... you are taking the easy way out by just killing them all before they can cause harm.  In doing so, you take away a potential benefit from society as a whole... beings capable of manipulating the physical world and making huge strides in national production.  Remember how humanity was able to do incredible things when they discovered fire?  Or chemistry?  Why would you knowingly remove the potential for even greater advancements?

More mages are always born and there are many Circles, so humantiy doesn't really loose anything.

Your entire point seems to be that mages cannot be trained to resist demons and that they cannot be taught to use their powers responsibly.  This is false, and we have many examples to prove that this is so.

It is not. There is no demon resistance training.
One can be tought ot master power, but to use it responsibly? There isn't an education method in the world that will guarantee success.

The majority of the Ferelden Circle weren't troublemakers... even Godwin, the cowardly mage you can smuggle lyrium to, was able to maintain his sanity.  There are troublemakers in the real world... does that mean that everyone should die to avoid problems in the future?  I mean... it just doesn't make sense not to give people a chance to show that they can be trusted...

Maybe. But when demon possesion happens, there isn oway to tell if any mage - no matter how much you trusted him - is not possesed. Gowdign can very well be a meat puppet controlled by a demon.

And doesn't hte Circle already do that?
Mages who have proven themselves get more rights.

A system of training, limited freedom, and careful (non-intrusive) monitoring is preferable, as it allows mages to simply live as normal citizens and use their incredible powers for the benefit of society.  And if they get out of control or use these powers to harm others?  Then you punish them.  Not before a crime has been committed.

A reactionary police force cannot work. Too many villages, too big an area, too big a death toll.
You need an antire squad of templars for a single abomination (and that is often not enough for powerfull ones)

There will always be
people who want to cause harm... being born a mage does not increase the
chances of you becoming one.

Actually, since mages are prone to possesion, it does.
Wether a mage wants it or not.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 08 novembre 2013 - 11:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...
If this were true, the Tevinter Imperium would never have existed.  At some point, we all need to accept that it is possible for mages to avoid demonic possession.  History has proven this.

False. A flawed logic.

Mages can avoid demonic possesion...but there is no method, no training, no trick to it and no way to tell. It's a combination of many unpredictable factors.

[Ieldra]

Actually, it is canonically possible to protect mages from becoming possessed reliably - by magic. The Litany of Adralla does this as one of two effects. It's just unwieldy and has a short duration, but since it's proven that it's possible, I wonder why nobody has thought of putting more resources into research.

I contend that it is not the primary goal of the Chantry to protect people from possessed mages, but to retain control over mages in order to use them to expand its influence. The protection claim is just a convenient justification. Otherwise, some more research would've been done into the effects of the Litany of Adralla.

Of course, it doesn't help that you have do study blood magic for that. Oh, the horror!

Also, conventional wisdom says that to lose control to a demon is the result of "giving in to temptation". Nice way of shrouding the truth in religious metaphor. Play DA2. By the account of those who were turned by the demon in the Fade sequence, it's more the result of a mental influence, one that heightens passions and desires until they become all but irresistible. Protect against that mental influence - which should also be possible based on the same mechanism used by the Litany of Adralla - and the number of possessed mages should drop sharply. 

The statement that it isn't possible to protect against possession is patently false. The widespread belief that this is so is also extremely convenient for the Chantry.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 novembre 2013 - 11:16 .

[MWImexico]

Until further notice, the mages don't grow on trees. They are not all orphans or people rejected by their families. I wonder what the reaction of the public opinion will be if we suddenly decide to kill all the mages. Hello riots. What is to loose? I would say our humanity, because it's clear for me that I wouldn't want to live in a society that hunts and kill innocent children/people. Anyway, this "solution" lack of imagination, I'm sure people can do better and find a way (more complex) that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages.   

Tevinter was able to endure through time, despite being ruled by mages. I wonder how they protected themselves from becoming all abominations?

Also, I remain convinced that a well trained mage has better chance to resist demons. In the same way that a stable and healthy education gives better chances in life to ordinary people.

Modifié par MWImexico, 08 novembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[dragonflight288]

go
Actually, it is canonically possible to protect mages from becoming possessed reliably - by magic. The Litany of Adralla does this as one of two effects. It's just unwieldy and has a short duration, but since it's proven that it's possible, I wonder why nobody has thought of putting more resources into research.

Probably because it would require extensive use of the skills of an experienced blood mage.

[TheKomandorShepard]

MWImexico wrote...

Until further notice, the mages don't grow on trees. They are not all orphans or people rejected by their families. I wonder what the reaction of the public opinion will be if we suddenly decide to kill all the mages. Hello riots. What is to loose? I would say our humanity, because it's clear for me that I wouldn't want to live in a society that hunts and kill innocent children/people. Anyway, this "solution" lack of imagination, I'm sure people can do better and find a way (more complex) that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages.   

Tevinter was able to endure through time, despite being ruled by mages. I wonder how they protected themselves from becoming all abominations?

Also, I remain convinced that a well trained mage has better chance to resist demons. In the same way that a stable and healthy education gives better chances in life to ordinary people.

No?Humans committed genocides already and pretty much other bad things elves , dwarfes throw own childrens because they are casteless , and qunari mages are ready to kill themselves i could give more examples so no riots peoples hate mages so we have easier job.More comples doesn't mean better i doubt that you want complex slicing bread.

"that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages."    what is acceptable depends on you and peoples accepted worse things.       

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Until further notice, the mages don't grow on trees. They are not all orphans or people rejected by their families. I wonder what the reaction of the public opinion will be if we suddenly decide to kill all the mages. Hello riots. What is to loose? I would say our humanity, because it's clear for me that I wouldn't want to live in a society that hunts and kill innocent children/people. Anyway, this "solution" lack of imagination, I'm sure people can do better and find a way (more complex) that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages.   

Tevinter was able to endure through time, despite being ruled by mages. I wonder how they protected themselves from becoming all abominations?

Also, I remain convinced that a well trained mage has better chance to resist demons. In the same way that a stable and healthy education gives better chances in life to ordinary people.

No?Humans committed genocides already and pretty much other bad things elves , dwarfes throw own childrens because they are casteless , and qunari mages are ready to kill themselves i could give more examples so no riots peoples hate mages so we have easier job.More comples doesn't mean better i doubt that you want complex slicing bread.

"that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages."    what is acceptable depends on you and peoples accepted worse things.       

Thing is, most people don't accept genocide as a solution, and slaughtering all mages and their children is nothing but.

Add in the practical aspects. Without mages, you can't do the joining to make Grey Wardens, and what'll the world do when the next Blight hits? Without Grey Wardens all you'll have is the total and complete destruction of all life in Thedas. Then there's Veil tears. Not once has there ever been an example of a non-mage/spirit sealing and mending veil tears and strengthening them. So if you kill all mages, no one would be able to mend veil tears that allow demons into the world. And once they're in the world, anyone and anything can get possessed, and they won't care if what they're possessing is a mage, a person or even a tree or a corpse.

Not to mention that there are examples of non-mages sundering the veil. When the Llmarryn Accord was broken by both the local chantry and the local qunari of Rivain, there was such a mass slaughter that the veil was sundered. When the orphanage in Denerim's alienage was purged, the violence there was brutal enough to sunder the veil and demons were able to enter. The Brecilian Forest became a haven of spirits possessing trees and becoming sylvans as a result of a war.

Your perspective is interesting, but it ultimately doesn't solve any of the problems you are trying to prevent.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Until further notice, the mages don't grow on trees. They are not all orphans or people rejected by their families. I wonder what the reaction of the public opinion will be if we suddenly decide to kill all the mages. Hello riots. What is to loose? I would say our humanity, because it's clear for me that I wouldn't want to live in a society that hunts and kill innocent children/people. Anyway, this "solution" lack of imagination, I'm sure people can do better and find a way (more complex) that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages.   

Tevinter was able to endure through time, despite being ruled by mages. I wonder how they protected themselves from becoming all abominations?

Also, I remain convinced that a well trained mage has better chance to resist demons. In the same way that a stable and healthy education gives better chances in life to ordinary people.

No?Humans committed genocides already and pretty much other bad things elves , dwarfes throw own childrens because they are casteless , and qunari mages are ready to kill themselves i could give more examples so no riots peoples hate mages so we have easier job.More comples doesn't mean better i doubt that you want complex slicing bread.

"that could be seen as acceptable by almost everyone, mages or non-mages."    what is acceptable depends on you and peoples accepted worse things.       

Thing is, most people don't accept genocide as a solution, and slaughtering all mages and their children is nothing but.

Add in the practical aspects. Without mages, you can't do the joining to make Grey Wardens, and what'll the world do when the next Blight hits? Without Grey Wardens all you'll have is the total and complete destruction of all life in Thedas. Then there's Veil tears. Not once has there ever been an example of a non-mage/spirit sealing and mending veil tears and strengthening them. So if you kill all mages, no one would be able to mend veil tears that allow demons into the world. And once they're in the world, anyone and anything can get possessed, and they won't care if what they're possessing is a mage, a person or even a tree or a corpse.

Not to mention that there are examples of non-mages sundering the veil. When the Llmarryn Accord was broken by both the local chantry and the local qunari of Rivain, there was such a mass slaughter that the veil was sundered. When the orphanage in Denerim's alienage was purged, the violence there was brutal enough to sunder the veil and demons were able to enter. The Brecilian Forest became a haven of spirits possessing trees and becoming sylvans as a result of a war.

Your perspective is interesting, but it ultimately doesn't solve any of the problems you are trying to prevent.

Elves? First peoples already gladly would burn mages for being mages see kirkwall and asunder so i think that you overestimate peoples history proves that.So i don't see a problem.

And i said already for grey wardens we need few mages we can give them few new born mages to train and that will be enough.

Only problem is veil as you said but it can be fixed by grey warden mages that i mentioned before so my solution is good and ends problem. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 08 novembre 2013 - 04:18 .

[dragonflight288]

Elves? First peoples already gladly would burn mages for being mages see kirkwall and asunder so i think that you overestimate peoples history proves that.So i don't see a problem.

Cullen also mentions that the templars have been losing popularity increasingly, and it was just as likely they would get the door slammed in their face as be welcomed with open arms. And Thrask in Act 1 mentions that he's constantly surprised at how much support mages get from non-magical people.

In Kirkwall, there wasn't a lot of support for killing mages for the sake of being mages, except from Meredith and the extreme templars. All the nobles at the beginning of Act 3 simply share whatever views the Champion espouses, so I can't really count them when they have no set opinions of their own. And in Asunder, it was Lambert and extreme templars again who pushed killing/tranquilizing mages. Hardly conclusive evidence on the greater population.

As it stands now, however, it's hard to say which faction is least liked. Mages will always be feared by many non-mages, but the Red Templars look like they'll set the tone for how all templars will be perceived, as raiders, bandits and murderers if their attacking a village is anything to go by.

And i said already for grey wardens we need few mages we can give them few new born mages to train and that will be enough.

Two things wrong with this. Grey Wardens only recruit the best. Most people don't survive the joining. Giving them cast off mage children won't work for that reason alone. The Grey Wardens would be forced to somehow come up with the materials, the housing and the educational facilities needed to raise these mages and teach them to master their powers while also fighting the darkspawn, so the mage mentors would be likely too busy to train the kids.

Another reason this won't work is that if you kill all the mages except for the few children given to the Wardens, who would have the training and knowledge to train the new generation? Only Tevinter would, and that's no an option for anyone who wants to teach mages against the dangers of blood magic.

Only problem is veil as you said but it can be fixed by grey warden mages that i mentioned before so my solution is good and ends problem.

Only most mages would still be dead, whether from your purge or from the Joining itself, and Wardens are committed to fighting the darkspawn and staying out of all other concerns, so they likely would only get involved with the veil tears if it got in the way of being a Grey Warden and fighting darkspawn.

[MWImexico]

@TheKomandorShepard :

Not everybody hates mages, even in Kirkwall, a lot of citizen expressed their discomfort about Meredith's politic, you can speak with them in the begining of the act 3. Even Cullen says so (before that, if I remember well) : the opinion public tends to empathise with the hardship of the mages.

Also, there is a lot of cultural differences between the dwarf society, the Dalish one and the humans one. Even between humains : would you say that since slavery is accepted in Tevinter, then the rest of the world should sudenly accept to do the same in their own country? Just like that?
What is considered fair in one country don't change so suddenly, something has to happen before that. I think that, if the chantry stays neutral about that matter, there is a lot of chance that the opinion of population will be divided.

Well, I also suppose that the tear in the veil could actually be something big enough to generate hartred into some people's mind. I guess I will wait and see how all this happen during the game, because maybe it's going to be obvious that the mages (as a group) are not responsible and maybe they also could become a powerfull asset when the inquisitor will try to fix it?

Anyway, who is supposed to eradicate all the mages? The templars? Instead of that, wouldn't they be more usefull elsewhere, like fighting demons and protecting the population?  

Edit : Hu? I didn't know the nobility in Kirkwall has always the same opinion of Hawke. Then I guess that what I said before about that will only be true for the people who stood up against Meredith at that moment. 

Modifié par MWImexico, 08 novembre 2013 - 05:04 .