279 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's funny to see that the OP and the most stalwart defenders of everything ME don't have DA:O registered in their profile.
You seem not to remember, or better, not to know at all, that in DA:O there is a decision that can either kill a party member, kill yourself, or give absolutely unforseeable consequences in the future. And thats definitely not the only one that give unpredictable results, there are many.
On the other hand in Mass Effect, you simply decide if you wanna be good or chaotic stupid and then you have tyour road paved and well signalled from the beginning to the end.

You better check my profile again, I've finished DOA 4 times at this point. I know there are more choices than the two I listed in both games but I was using an example of the fact that you have major, game meaningful choices in both. ME isn't a Bioshock or GoW type shooter where you really can't influence the game at all.  As the BW guys have stated there are hundreds of choices being imported (http://xbox360.ign.c...1062898p1.html  or http://www.gamespot....ws/6214087.html) into ME2. Apparently you can make at least some choices in ME.

You are, again, very hung up on game mechanics. Your opinion could change if in DOA they had made all the "good" answers #1 and all the naughty ones #3. I mean is that really what you want to say because from where I'm sitting it sounds silly - in fact if I recall BG2 basically did that with responses.

The fact that you continue to reference "chaotic" tells me you are way too locked into D&D to consider anything that breaches the very narrow and confined walls of that reservation "real" role playing. Role playing isn't about game mechanics and yet all you want to do is tlak about dialog options locations on a screen.

You want this to be about one game being good and the other bad. Obviously I love DAO, I think it was the best game of 2009 hands down, for me. The thing is that ME doesn't have to be bad for DAO to be good. They're both great role playing games that use different mechanisms to tell their stories.

Modifié par Sidney, 24 janvier 2010 - 08:57 .

[Abriael_CG]

Sidney wrote...

You better check my profile again, I've finished DOA 4 times at this point.

Ahah blame your generic avatar man, I mixed you up with the Darth something guy

You are, again, very hung up on game mechanics. Your opinion could change if in DOA they had made all the "good" answers #1 and all the naughty ones #3. I mean is that really what you want to say because from where I'm sitting it sounds silly - in fact if I recall BG2 basically did that with responses.

It's not just a matter of the game guiding you hand-in-hand on two pre-determined roads and gives you BIG and CLEAR signal on which is which. The problem is that on top of that ALL the choices (besides the "who do you want to save" one, but that one really has no moral implication or results, it just results in you keeping  "generic companion with boobs" or "generic companion with no boobs", and even if you consider it vastly morally challenging it's just one single choice in the whole game) fit the paladin or the chaotic stupid stereotype evidently. There's no grey area, no choice that has you stop there and think "now, what is the better course of action?", you already KNOW what is the better course of action based on the decision you already made of being the "paladin" or the "chaotic stupid". I wanted to be Paragin, so i already knew from the very beginning of the game that I should have always chosen the upper option.
In DA:O, instead, there are several decisions that challenge your morality, because you have no real idea of the consequences and because the consequences are not evidently "good" or "evil", siding with harrowmonth or Behlen, destroying the anvil of the void or keeping it whole, siding with the elves or with the werewolves, the dark pact with Morrigan... there are too many to list.

The choices given in those dialogue not only have quite radical consequences, not only the good or bad paths aren't clearly signalled, but they aren't even easy to distinguish. In some choices simply there's no "perfectly good" or "perfectly bad" choices, some become apparent only at the ending, and still are a grey area, some aren't predictable in their consequences, one choice we won't even know the results until the next games.
This is something that's lacking a lot in ME, and that's why, as a game that is pubblicized to challenge your moral choices, it really falls short in comparison to DA:O

And that goes quite a lot beyond the purely "mechanical" aspect of the game.

You want this to be about one game being good and the other bad. Obviously I love DAO, I think it was the best game of 2009 hands down, for me. The thing is that ME doesn't have to be bad for DAO to be good. They're both great role playing games that use different mechanisms to tell their stories.

Mass Effect isn't bad. Simply, IMHO, isn't even comparable to DA:O in terms of good. if it was bad i wouldn't have my ME2 already preordered, even if the fact that you can't change the armors for your companions honestly turned me off quite a bit now. That's some big corner cutting there...

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:19 .

[Sidney]

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's not just a matter of the game guiding you hand-in-hand on two pre-determined roads and gives you BIG and CLEAR signal on which is which. The problem is that on top of that ALL the choices (besides the "who do you want to save" one, but that one really has no moral implication or results, it just results in you keeping  "generic companion with boobs" or "generic companion with no boobs", and even if you consider it vastly morally challenging it's just one single choice in the whole game) fit the paladin or the chaotic stupid stereotype evidently. There's no grey area, no choice that has you stop there and think "now, what is the better course of action?", you already KNOW what is the better course of action based on the decision you already made of being the "paladin" or the "chaotic stupid". I wanted to be Paragin, so i already knew from the very beginning of the game that I should have always chosen the upper option.

There a couple of problem here.

First, you aren't referencing the "choice" I was referring to. There's another choice more like the Urn choice where you don't have to lose a companion but you can. The choice you refer to isn't avoidable. Think Wrex here for example.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so hung up on paragon vs renegade. There's no reason to be one or the other and certainly no need. The fact that your character went that way is, again, your issue not the games. None of my Sheps maxed out either option because a lot like DAO there were times when someone just pissed me off enough that they needed a good killin'.

Third, there's no "knowing" the outcome. You are playing as a noble soul, a good guy, then that's the way you play. You are going to pick those dialog options again it isn't like you are confused by the options. When I played as a pissed off at the Shems city elf I knew in advance I'd take all the "cram it human scum" options. My Dalish Elf took all the "the maker sucks eggs" options.  That's just who they are and if your shep was a goody good well then shockers, you can pick those dialog options. I'm not sure that having them randomly scattered around the dialog menu or wheel really materailly changes the fundamental nature of the game. You might prefer the morally ambiguous decisions in DAO but that doesn't mean that choices don't exist and you oversimplify the choices in ME.

[spernus]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Sidney wrote...

You better check my profile again, I've finished DOA 4 times at this point.

Ahah blame your generic avatar man, I mixed you up with the Darth something guy

You are, again, very hung up on game mechanics. Your opinion could change if in DOA they had made all the "good" answers #1 and all the naughty ones #3. I mean is that really what you want to say because from where I'm sitting it sounds silly - in fact if I recall BG2 basically did that with responses.

It's not just a matter of the game guiding you hand-in-hand on two pre-determined roads and gives you BIG and CLEAR signal on which is which. The problem is that on top of that ALL the choices (besides the "who do you want to save" one, but that one really has no moral implication or results, it just results in you keeping  "generic companion with boobs" or "generic companion with no boobs", and even if you consider it vastly morally challenging it's just one single choice in the whole game) fit the paladin or the chaotic stupid stereotype evidently. There's no grey area, no choice that has you stop there and think "now, what is the better course of action?", you already KNOW what is the better course of action based on the decision you already made of being the "paladin" or the "chaotic stupid". I wanted to be Paragin, so i already knew from the very beginning of the game that I should have always chosen the upper option.
In DA:O, instead, there are several decisions that challenge your morality, because you have no real idea of the consequences and because the consequences are not evidently "good" or "evil", siding with harrowmonth or Behlen, destroying the anvil of the void or keeping it whole, siding with the elves or with the werewolves, the dark pact with Morrigan... there are too many to list.

The choices given in those dialogue not only have quite radical consequences, not only the good or bad paths aren't clearly signalled, but they aren't even easy to distinguish. In some choices simply there's no "perfectly good" or "perfectly bad" choices, some become apparent only at the ending, and still are a grey area, some aren't predictable in their consequences, one choice we won't even know the results until the next games.
This is something that's lacking a lot in ME, and that's why, as a game that is pubblicized to challenge your moral choices, it really falls short in comparison to DA:O

And that goes quite a lot beyond the purely "mechanical" aspect of the game.

You want this to be about one game being good and the other bad. Obviously I love DAO, I think it was the best game of 2009 hands down, for me. The thing is that ME doesn't have to be bad for DAO to be good. They're both great role playing games that use different mechanisms to tell their stories.

Mass Effect isn't bad. Simply, IMHO, isn't even comparable to DA:O in terms of good. if it was bad i wouldn't have my ME2 already preordered, even if the fact that you can't change the armors for your companions honestly turned me off quite a bit now. That's some big corner cutting there...

I don't know if Dragon age is really that much better than Mass effect as a game(not just factoring the rpg factor).

The biggest criticism toward DA is the generic fantasy setting,which is not helped by dwarf,elves,walking trees and monsters ressembling LOTR orc's.Well that and the story itself which isn't anything to write about. It's a solid foundation,but there is much to be improved for a sequel.
Mass effect was also a solid foundation and there was much to be improved as well. Both game are flawed and yet,Dragon age should of been much better than Mass effect.After 5-6 years in production compared to 3 for ME,I expected even more out of DA:O (well that and being a PC exclusive with mods at first).

You have to admit that there's plenty of aspect which are underwhelming like melee classes(underdeveloped),combat which isn't as strategic as it was hyped and yet again a module based game with zone all over the place,even a city separated in 5-6 small zones.

It's a more polished and fleshed out game than Mass effect for sure,but it did left me cold as ice despite being more varied or having more content.I did enjoy playing the game,but it doesn't particularly inspire or captivate my imagination in any shape or form.

My biggest problem with Dragon Age is the complete lack of inspiration which went into the creation of the world.As much as I would like,can't shake off that feeling of this fantasy universe being banal and a generic clone of LOTR(dwarves and their city under the surface,elves in forest and even Ants,orcs as brutal savage,etc).The art direction left a lot to be desired,so Bioware didn't pull off the dark fantasy setting they wanted(Demon's soul pull off a dark fantasy setting just with lighting and color palette).Gore effect was incredibly silly instead of evoking that feeling of a savage and brutal world.

If Bethesda could create a fantasy world which wasn't banal or cliche with Morrowind,so can Bioware.

Modifié par spernus, 24 janvier 2010 - 09:49 .

[Abriael_CG]

spernus wrote...
The biggest criticism toward DA is the generic fantasy setting,which is not helped by dwarf,elves,walking trees and monsters ressembling LOTR orc's.

matter of taste. Honestly i never really cared about the "OMG ORIGINALITY!" elitists that haunt every forum of a fantasy game spamming that any fantasy story that isn't "OMG ORIGINAL!" isn't good.
Personally, the fact that the game takes some very loose inspiration from LOTR (or anything else) has absolutely no bearing on the quality of it's story in itself.

Well that and the story itself which isn't anything to write about.

Again, that's your opinion. I find it one of the best stories i've played on a fantasy game to date.

You have to admit that there's plenty of aspect which are underwhelming like melee classes(underdeveloped)

They're more developed than melee classes in other games. The fact that mages in DA:O are more developed doesn't make melee classes worse. Actually the melee classes are very well fleshed out, considering the characterizing moves they have, and also quite spectacular to see in action.

combat which isn't as strategic as it was hyped

It depends on HOW you play it. It can be extremely strategic (just as much as in Baldur's and in similar games, and possibly more, given the friendly fire and the heavy stress on crowd control) if you play it like that. For sure more strategic than in basically every other RPG released in a long while, besides maybe Drakensang, which is pretty much even.

yet again a module based game with zone all over the place,even a city separated in 5-6 small zones.

What exactly makes this an "inferior" approach, besides your personal opinion? I know quite a lot of people (me included) that can't care the less for big open, and absolutely empty/inconsequential/largely recycled areas you find in games like Oblivion. The proof is how many people, in those games, after a while start to click on fast travel.

Wait, did I say "big"? Actually that's wrong, given that the whole empire in Oblivion is as large as a medium sized modern city and can be crossed from border to borde in half an hour on horseback. Which happens to completely demolish the realism of the world.

My biggest problem with Dragon Age is the complete lack of inspiration which went into the creation of the world.

Which is nothing more than your opinion, that I (and many, many others) happen to find not even nearly agreeable.

The art direction left a lot to be desired

Nonsense.

If Bethesda could create a fantasy world which wasn't banal or cliche with Morrowind,so can Bioware.

Too bad that the story sucked majorly. Like all of Bethesda's stories, from the first to the last.

I'm sure you will see the fact that your post can basically be translated with "hey, Dragon Age is not so good because it doesn't fit my tastes"
Only with many more words.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:26 .

[Abriael_CG]

Sidney wrote...
Second, I'm not sure why you are so hung up on paragon vs renegade. There's no reason to be one or the other and certainly no need. The fact that your character went that way is, again, your issue not the games. None of my Sheps maxed out either option because a lot like DAO there were times when someone just pissed me off enough that they needed a good killin'.

Third, there's no "knowing" the outcome.

of course you know the outcome, and that's where the problem lies. If you pick the upper option, you know that you'll behave like a paladin and the outcome of that choice will be good, will make you friends, and will make everyone smile. If you pic the lower option, you know that you'll behave like a jerk. On top of this, and this is the REAL problem, EVERY single action in the game (including the wrex one you named above) can be easily categorized into "good" or "evil". There's no middle ground. There's no unpredictable option. You can "chose" artificially to be good, and you can be good from the start to the end of the game without being faced by a single choice that will make you think about the consequences or of which you won't know if it'll be really good or really bad in it's outcome.
The simple truth is that, if you chose to be good or evil in Mass Effect, you don't even need to READ the dialogue options. You know which one to chose even before reading them.
If you don't think this is utter lack of depth, then we should simply agree to disagree, because i don't see any common ground of discussion here.

[witchking216]

Oblivion is still better than Dragon Age.

Mass Effect is better than Dragon Age.



Dark Brotherhood quests in Oblivion were way cooler than many in DA.

In Oblivion,

A- you can move up the ranks in different guilds,

B- own houses in different towns,

C- and even become a vampire.



Mass Effect graphics, combat, and consequences are superior to DA.

[Abriael_CG]

witchking216 wrote...
Oblivion is still better than Dragon Age.
Mass Effect is better than Dragon Age.

In your own tastes, that luckily many simply don't share.

Oblivion's story sucked majorly and the characters were dull as frying pans and absolutely inconsequential. Mass effect is good, but oversimplified and dumbed down to appease the FPS/TPS crowd.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:29 .

[witchking216]

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...
Oblivion is still better than Dragon Age.
Mass Effect is better than Dragon Age.

In your own tastes, that luckily many simply don't share.

Oblivion's story sucked majorly the characters were dull as frying pans and absolutely inconsequential. Mass effect is good, but oversimplified.

Oblivion's main quest sucked. To Dragon Age's credit, it does have a decent amount of gameplay hours that many other games don't have.....BUT they forgot the icing on the cake.

Mass Effect is Bioware's best product so far.
I think many more people agree with me.

[Abriael_CG]

witchking216 wrote...
I think many more people agree with me.

And many disagree, so what?

[witchking216]

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...
I think many more people agree with me.

And many disagree, so what?

So nothing...you're the one that went out of your way to claim most people agree with you.
I was just posting my opinion.

[trh5001]

Why the massive need to compare? Its not like owning one game prevents you from owning the other.

[witchking216]

trh5001 wrote...

Why the massive need to compare? Its not like owning one game prevents you from owning the other.

True that.
Sometimes elements of one game are superior to elements of a different game and vice versa.
I think combining the best will make the best.

[Abriael_CG]

witchking216 wrote...
So nothing...you're the one that went out of your way to claim most people agree with you.
I was just posting my opinion.

"Many" != "Most"

hey mommy, look over there! a strawman argument

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:48 .

[witchking216]

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...
So nothing...you're the one that went out of your way to claim most people agree with you.
I was just posting my opinion.

"Many" != "Most"

hey mommy, look over there! a strawman argument

Ohh you want a baby rattle...

[Rachmani]

They just differ in too many ways, and are too far apart in terms of release date to be comparable.

Combat, RP, Story... apart from that "save the world" thing the have too little in common.



That basically leaves just one way of somehow comparing them, and that is by personal preference.

For me, however it's difficult even then, as each game has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

Ask yourself... did Mass Effect have great sidequests?

Did DAs story drag you in and did it only get better, just like Mass Effect's story did?

[spernus]

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...
Oblivion is still better than Dragon Age.
Mass Effect is better than Dragon Age.

In your own tastes, that luckily many simply don't share.

Oblivion's story sucked majorly and the characters were dull as frying pans and absolutely inconsequential. Mass effect is good, but oversimplified and dumbed down to appease the FPS/TPS crowd.

And the same is true for you,since you are a Dragon age homer who refuse to see many of the weak point. That's how it goes on message board anyway,you have to defend what you love and bash what you don't.

[witchking216]

spernus wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...
Oblivion is still better than Dragon Age.
Mass Effect is better than Dragon Age.

In your own tastes, that luckily many simply don't share.

Oblivion's story sucked majorly and the characters were dull as frying pans and absolutely inconsequential. Mass effect is good, but oversimplified and dumbed down to appease the FPS/TPS crowd.

And the same is true for you,since you are a Dragon age homer who refuse to see many of the weak point. That's how it goes on message board anyway,you have to defend what you love and bash what you don't.

Amen brotha...amen

[oblivionenss]

Rachmani wrote...

Did DAs story drag you in and did it only get better, just like Mass Effect's story did?

No, Mass effects story didn't drag me in or get better, I tried to get in but after been on several planets with almost exactly identical bunkers, I almost! stopped follow the story and just wanted to be done with the game.

While in Dragon age you had more variety enviroments that made me eager to continue explore the world.

And one more thing, dont take opinons and make them sounds as facts.

[Abriael_CG]

spernus wrote...
And the same is true for you,since you are a Dragon age homer who refuse to see many of the weak point. 

Actually, those that you listed as "weak points" simply are details of the game that don't fit your tastes. They have nothing to do with actual quality.
It's unfortunate, but game developers don't tailor games around your tastes. This doesn't make those games worse.

[witchking216]

Abriael_CG wrote...

spernus wrote...
And the same is true for you,since you are a Dragon age homer who refuse to see many of the weak point. 

Actually, those that you listed as "weak points" simply are details of the game that don't fit your tastes. They have nothing to do with actual quality.
It's unfortunate, but game developers don't tailor games around your tastes. This doesn't make those games worse.

Gee wiz........I think they would be out of the game business if they don't tailor games to fit the preferences of those that buy RPGs. di...di di

[Abriael_CG]

witchking216 wrote...

Gee wiz........I think they would be out of the game business if they don't tailor games to fit the preferences of those that buy RPGs. di...di di

They tailor games to fit the preference of a whole demographic, not of single gamers.

[spernus]

Abriael_CG wrote...

spernus wrote...
And the same is true for you,since you are a Dragon age homer who refuse to see many of the weak point. 

Actually, those that you listed as "weak points" simply are details of the game that don't fit your tastes. They have nothing to do with actual quality.
It's unfortunate, but game developers don't tailor games around your tastes. This doesn't make those games worse.

I wonder how Bioware will react toward the second game.I don't think Bioware is all that pleased with the reception toward Dragon age,especially since it lost most rpg of the year award to Demon's soul and they saw that many critics and many gamers in the first few weeks kept saying how dull,banal and uninspired the world felt on this very message board (and Bioware will definitively answer to complaints or criticism in their sequel).

You can't be sure that the team behind Dragon age is perfectly satisfied of the world they crafted so far,so it could or couldn't change drastically for a sequel (and Mass effect 2 is a significant departure from the first in many ways).

[Little Paw]

Note to self: Avoid any thread with Abriael_CG posting in it.

[witchking216]

Abriael_CG wrote...

witchking216 wrote...

Gee wiz........I think they would be out of the game business if they don't tailor games to fit the preferences of those that buy RPGs. di...di di

They tailor games to fit the preference of a whole demographic, not of single gamers.

I would not recommend that you make a career in marketing.
It's about listening to your customers...not just someone like you, who fantasizes about Dragon Age all day and that's the extent of his gaming experience.