279 réponses à ce sujet

[Foreman20]

Sidney (not to brag) but I'm one of the oldest posters around these boards I would bet. I happily retired when I was 42 after pretty in my 20 years. Video gaming has become a hobby of mine. I'm also an old school D&D player who still has characters that I created back in 1982. Just for the record I'm 52 years young. Young mind that refuses to get old.

[Abriael_CG]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...
Not to mention that if FemShep tried on Miranda's suit it'd fit loosely, especially in the chest area

Wait wait, seriously, wait. You mean that in ME2 characters wear the same armor for the whole game?

Please tell me I'm wrong...

[Loerwyn]

Abriael_CG wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...
Not to mention that if FemShep tried on Miranda's suit it'd fit loosely, especially in the chest area

Wait wait, seriously, wait. You mean that in ME2 characters wear the same armor for the whole game?

Please tell me I'm wrong...

You're not, well, I'd say 80% correct. They all wear their own set of gear. So Miranda only wears that Grand Canyon revealing top, Thane wears his thingy, Grunt wears his armor, you get the idea. However, there's at least 1 alternative (might just be one) costume per member, which is different colouring of what they wear now. Sounds rubbish, but I don't actually mind it. From what I've sene, it allows you to focus a lot more on Shep.

[Abriael_CG]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...
You're not, well, I'd say 80% correct.
They all wear their own set of gear. So Miranda only wears that Grand
Canyon revealing top, Thane wears his thingy, Grunt wears his armor,
you get the idea. However, there's at least 1 alternative (might just
be one) costume per member, which is different colouring of what they
wear now. Sounds rubbish, but I don't actually mind it.

Oh goodness... that's... just sad.

From what I've sene, it allows you to focus a lot more on Shep.

At the very least I hope that Shepard can wear several different suits? right?

[chaosapiant]

My experience with the games sort of mirrors the OP's.  I started on Bioware games with Baldur's Gate, and i've played all of their RPGs since except for the Sonic one.  That being said, I truly think that Mass Effect has upjumped the Baldur's Gate Trilogy as my favorite game and Bioware franchise. That being said, I absolutely LOVE Dragon Age, and can't wait for the expansion.

When I'm in the mood for Sci Fi, ME is where it's at.  I actually love exploring the goofy barren little worlds and mineral collections.  I love walking on a desolate planet looking at the pretty sky and wondering if that's what it would really be like to actually be on a foreign world.

Dragon Age is by far the better RPG, but Mass Effect is the better game, and for me, the better form of escapism.

[Darth Obvious]

Abriael_CG wrote...

As of epic, very few scores are more epic than DA:O's.

You may be the biggest homer on these boards, you know that? I mean, let's face it, that comment was hilarious.  

Now, the cinematic of the battle of Denerim, those are phenomenal.

Not really. Pretty ho-hum.

Mass effect brought nothing to the genre, other than mindless shooty shooty action

See now I know you are full of it. ME was indeed different than the games that had come before, and the "mindless" shooting you so despise is nothing compared to the many more hours of mindlessness that you are FORCED to go through in DA. If you can honestly tell me that by the twentieth darkspawn encounter in the Deep Roads you are still engaged in your "mindfulness" then I truly feel sorry for you.

I was bored out of my mind doing the same thing for hours on end. At least in ME you get through the combat very quickly and can get back to the story. The lack of that in DA is one of its biggest flaws.

[Abriael_CG]

Darth Obvious wrote...
You may be the biggest homer on these boards, you know that? I mean, let's face it, that comment was hilarious.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Hilarious?  Sure now, just as much as the stalwart defense of every flaw plaguing mass effect.

Not really. Pretty ho-hum.

I doubt there could be anything more "ho hum" then a giant octopus perching on a tower

Darth Obvious wrote...

See now I know you are full of it. ME was indeed different than the games that had come before, and the "mindless" shooting you so despise is nothing compared to the many more hours of mindlessness that you are FORCED to go through in DA. If you can honestly tell me that by the twentieth darkspawn encounter in the Deep Roads you are still engaged in your "mindfulness" then I truly feel sorry for you

Oh really? You mean you're more engaged by the hundredth geth encounter in mass effect, of course played in exactly the same environments (but, oh yay! with some crates shifted around!), during which you have nothing else to do that aim and shoot (with an absolutely lackluster and variation-lacking weaponry, I'd add)?

At the very least DA:O offers some tactical depth and a lot of enviromental and creature variation. ME simply does not, even because all the encounters are laughably easy. Having to suicide after 20 minutes of survival mission in pinnacle station just for the sake of progressing because the enemy does not manage to kill you if you put even the slightest effort into it is just epic

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:04 .

[Little Paw]

I posted way back in this thread and after reading all of the responses and playing through DA a few times now, I have to say I was much more emotionally involved in the ME story.

I think ME has a better sense of drama than DA.

I agree with the ME having tedious and overly similar side quests.

DA's questing is more fulfilling.

But main story alone, I was more on the edge of my seat playing ME. It just seemed "bigger" in scope; not because it was outer space but because in ME a story unravels bit by bit, and in DA you pretty much know the deal and are collecting people and troops to mount the inevitable attack on the baddie (a la Lord of the Rings, which is a bit played out).

[Loerwyn]

Abriael_CG wrote...
At the very least I hope that Shepard can wear several different suits? right?

Of course. You just have to look at the screenies to see that

[Andat]

Little Paw wrote...

I posted way back in this thread and after reading all of the responses and playing through DA a few times now, I have to say I was much more emotionally involved in the ME story.
I think ME has a better sense of drama than DA.
I agree with the ME having tedious and overly similar side quests.
DA's questing is more fulfilling.
But main story alone, I was more on the edge of my seat playing ME. It just seemed "bigger" in scope; not because it was outer space but because in ME a story unravels bit by bit, and in DA you pretty much know the deal and are collecting people and troops to mount the inevitable attack on the baddie (a la Lord of the Rings, which is a bit played out).

Do you perhaps get more engaged by SciFi than Fantasy in general?  Either way,I think the fact that you can see Shep do stuff in conversations helps.  You get more of a sense that he (or she) is out to do whatever it takes to save the galaxy.

Personally, my main issues with ME were bugs and a few poor design decisions.  Fix the bugs, sort out some of the issues and you have a great game.

[Abriael_CG]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...
Of course. You just have to look at the screenies to see that

Phew, you scared me for a moment. In any case (due to the companion part): excitement level for mass effect 2: -100

[Norman Ellis]

we can debate all we want till the cows come home, but in the end it will still come down to your personal preference.



as for me, i love the medieval stuff better than the sci-fi stuff, so naturally, Dragon Age gets my vote. Star Wars was the only sci-fi story that got my interest (and recently, the 2009 Star Trek) and it was only because the Jedi's and the Sith's carried swords (or lightsabers).



anyways, since this matter is judged according to that personal preference, we can just agree that indeed both games are great in their own right.

[Little Paw]

Andat wrote...

Little Paw wrote...

I posted way back in this thread and after reading all of the responses and playing through DA a few times now, I have to say I was much more emotionally involved in the ME story.
I think ME has a better sense of drama than DA.
I agree with the ME having tedious and overly similar side quests.
DA's questing is more fulfilling.
But main story alone, I was more on the edge of my seat playing ME. It just seemed "bigger" in scope; not because it was outer space but because in ME a story unravels bit by bit, and in DA you pretty much know the deal and are collecting people and troops to mount the inevitable attack on the baddie (a la Lord of the Rings, which is a bit played out).

Do you perhaps get more engaged by SciFi than Fantasy in general?  Either way,I think the fact that you can see Shep do stuff in conversations helps.  You get more of a sense that he (or she) is out to do whatever it takes to save the galaxy.

Personally, my main issues with ME were bugs and a few poor design decisions.  Fix the bugs, sort out some of the issues and you have a great game.

Thanks for the post.
I am not sure if I get more engaged by Sci-Fi. Perhaps I should check out other Sci-Fi titles. I just really liked the ME story.
As far as fantasy I found The Witcher just as engaging. The Witcher is based on Wiedźmin by Polish writer Andrzej Sapkowski, and is quite original for the genre. Sapkowski gives new life to elves and dwarfs in The Witcher making them seem a little more realistic (as realistic as elves and dwarfs can be I guess).
DA is also very colorful and "unreal" which is Bioware's style. The Witcher is more earth tones and gritty which helped the immersion for me.

I just don't find the story in DA very engaging as I constantly see where it borrows from Tolkein and other human/dwarf/elf type of fantasy lore which ruins the immersion for me a bit. It's a bit old hat, and wholly unoriginal.

Perhaps the main characters being voiced in ME and The Witcher helps; I can see the logic there, especially as far as immersion, but overall the two are much better stories than DA in my humble opinion.

[Andat]

@Norman: That makes far too much sense for a web forum. Besides, I just got my Wade's Drakeskin Armour out of the wardrobe - it's flame resistant, you know.

[Abriael_CG]

Ah, The Witcher. Nothing says "I Love You" like a collectible card game

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:31 .

[Andat]

Little Paw wrote...

Andat wrote...

Little Paw wrote...

I posted way back in this thread and after reading all of the responses and playing through DA a few times now, I have to say I was much more emotionally involved in the ME story.
I think ME has a better sense of drama than DA.
I agree with the ME having tedious and overly similar side quests.
DA's questing is more fulfilling.
But main story alone, I was more on the edge of my seat playing ME. It just seemed "bigger" in scope; not because it was outer space but because in ME a story unravels bit by bit, and in DA you pretty much know the deal and are collecting people and troops to mount the inevitable attack on the baddie (a la Lord of the Rings, which is a bit played out).

Do you perhaps get more engaged by SciFi than Fantasy in general?  Either way,I think the fact that you can see Shep do stuff in conversations helps.  You get more of a sense that he (or she) is out to do whatever it takes to save the galaxy.

Personally, my main issues with ME were bugs and a few poor design decisions.  Fix the bugs, sort out some of the issues and you have a great game.

Thanks for the post.
I am not sure if I get more engaged by Sci-Fi. Perhaps I should check out other Sci-Fi titles. I just really liked the ME story.
As far as fantasy I found The Witcher just as engaging. The Witcher is based on Wiedźmin by Polish writer Andrzej Sapkowski, and is quite original for the genre. Sapkowski gives new life to elves and dwarfs in The Witcher making them seem a little more realistic (as realistic as elves and dwarfs can be I guess).
DA is also very colorful and "unreal" which is Bioware's style. The Witcher is more earth tones and gritty which helped the immersion for me.

I just don't find the story in DA very engaging as I constantly see where it borrows from Tolkein and other human/dwarf/elf type of fantasy lore which ruins the immersion for me a bit. It's a bit old hat, and wholly unoriginal.

Perhaps the main characters being voiced in ME and The Witcher helps; I can see the logic there, especially as far as immersion, but overall the two are much better stories than DA in my humble opinion.

Hmm, just a thought.  I haven't played the Witcher (though the story seems to get praised quite a lot in reviews) but ME does borrow quite a lot from SciFi movies and TV shows - particularly Star Wars (I see Jedi) and Stargate.  The story has also been done a whole bunch of times in SciFi books - have a look at Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space trilogy.

Personally I tend not to get too bothered by that kind of thing.  Look at any artwork (and yes I do see games as art) hard enough and you'll see some place where it's been done before.  It's only the details that change.

[Sidney]

Abriael_CG wrote...

There are quite a few obvious choices in DA:O, but there are also MANY ones that are a grey area, or in which the choice isn't obvious at all. Jowan is an example, same with the elves and the lycantropes. What about chosing between Belhen and Harrowmont? The list is quite long.
On the other hand Mass Effect has no grey area choices, it's either good or bad, since the middle option is always inconsequential. And not only it's either paragon or renegade at every step, and it's absolutely clear which one is which, but they always TELL you which one is which.
I'm sorry, but I find it chuckle-worthy, and perfectly in line with the dire lack of depth of a Shooter game, not really an RPG.

Those are not dialog options which is what you wanted to gripe about before and now are onto moral choices. Argument shifts and off we to another point.

I'm not sure why "lesser of two evils" options are better than good vs evil choices. Choices are choices. The morality might be mixed and maybe you like the debatability of the all grey but that doesn't mitigate the fact that meaningful choices do exist.  I doubt you'd make the good/evil argument if we were dealing with BG2 where the options were good/evil or light/dark of KoTOR.

You compare a shooter with RPG elements to an RPG. Take Bioshock vs ME. Now they are clearly closer in design than DAO and Bioshock. Stll, in Bioshock while you have charatcer development and inventory management but that's not enough to be an RPG. In Bioshock you can make moral choices - the fate of the Little Sisters and killing the artist - but those really have no effect on the game itself other than when you get your powerups - in fairness that is the point of the game but that's another issue. In ME, you control character development, you make moral choice but critically those choices matter in the game and to the end of the game just like in DAO. You've got decisions with the Urn of Sacred Ashes that, just in game terms, matters because you can cost yourself a party member. In ME, you can make a decision to actually kill a party member at one point.  Those are consequential story choices that go beyond what weapon to use or rather to go right or left. You are a fundamentalist on RPG's- they must look like and play like BG to be "real" RPG;s. Was JE an RPG? Real time combat, no inventory control, a pretty linear story-line, no control of your NPC's.

[Sidney]

Foreman20 wrote...

Sidney (not to brag) but I'm one of the oldest posters around these boards I would bet. I happily retired when I was 42 after pretty in my 20 years. Video gaming has become a hobby of mine. I'm also an old school D&D player who still has characters that I created back in 1982. Just for the record I'm 52 years young. Young mind that refuses to get old.

You've got me by a few years, not nearly as as many as I'd wish.

I suspect my moral flexibility on these role playing issues is because I didn't come up through the AD&D world - and to me that ruleset was far and away the worst thing about the BG series for example. As long as I'm playing a role and that role has meaning in the game I really don't care much about anything else around it.

I mean if they could create a game where I played as a Philip Marlowe-esque detective in a Big Sleep type world I'd be thrilled. If that game said  I couldn't chose a class, level up, roll a character, I could only carry my .38 but I got to make all kinds of noir-ish choices in the game I'd be happy and consider that a good RP experience. To me, all the classes, rules, dice rolls, inventory management (especially this) just get in the way of a good story and interaction with the world. All that infrastructure is just something that slaps me in the face that I'm not really in the world.

[Little Paw]

@Andat - thanks for the replies...

[Little Paw]

Sidney wrote...

Foreman20 wrote...

Sidney (not to brag) but I'm one of the oldest posters around these boards I would bet. I happily retired when I was 42 after pretty in my 20 years. Video gaming has become a hobby of mine. I'm also an old school D&D player who still has characters that I created back in 1982. Just for the record I'm 52 years young. Young mind that refuses to get old.

You've got me by a few years, not nearly as as many as I'd wish.

I suspect my moral flexibility on these role playing issues is because I didn't come up through the AD&D world - and to me that ruleset was far and away the worst thing about the BG series for example. As long as I'm playing a role and that role has meaning in the game I really don't care much about anything else around it.

I mean if they could create a game where I played as a Philip Marlowe-esque detective in a Big Sleep type world I'd be thrilled. If that game said  I couldn't chose a class, level up, roll a character, I could only carry my .38 but I got to make all kinds of noir-ish choices in the game I'd be happy and consider that a good RP experience. To me, all the classes, rules, dice rolls, inventory management (especially this) just get in the way of a good story and interaction with the world. All that infrastructure is just something that slaps me in the face that I'm not really in the world.

Goodness Sidney - a game like The Big Sleep!!!
SIGN ME UP!!!
And if a game could really nail the dilaogue and vernacular of the era...WOW!!!

[Darth Obvious]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Oh really? You mean you're more engaged by the hundredth geth encounter in mass effect, of course played in exactly the same environments (but, oh yay! with some crates shifted around!),

I love how you just avoided my point.

For starters, in ME you don't have to do any of those repetitive side-quests. Likewise, in DA you don't have to do any of the repetitive side-quests either, but the repetitive parts in DA are not just in the side-quests, but in the main quests. One boring room of darkspawn after another after another after another, and it can go on for hours.

The fact is that the main quests in DA are a hell of a lot more redundant than the main quests in ME, and it is funny that anyone so irritated by the repetition in ME would be so hypocritical (or just so blind) as to not admit that there is even more repetition in DA, which there clearly is.

Yes, the repetitive side-quests were the one major flaw of ME, and no one is disputing that. But guess what? In Dragon Age there is the exact same thing going on with the side-quests. The same areas are recycled again and again.

"Ooh, this time there are pumpkins!"

Gimme a break... <rolleyes>

If you can't admit that, then your opinion on these games is worth next to nothing.

[oblivionenss]

"The same areas are recycled again and again. "



I dont agree with you, I never had a deja vu while playing DAO.



But ME on the other hand...

[Loerwyn]

Most of the random encounters are "recycled areas", and there was somewhere I felt very similar to Castle Cousland, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

[Abriael_CG]

Sidney wrote...
You
compare a shooter with RPG elements to an RPG. Take Bioshock vs ME. Now
they are clearly closer in design than DAO and Bioshock. Stll, in
Bioshock while you have charatcer development and inventory management
but that's not enough to be an RPG. In Bioshock you can make moral
choices - the fate of the Little Sisters and killing the artist - but
those really have no effect on the game itself other than when you get
your powerups - in fairness that is the point of the game but that's
another issue.

Just because there are games with less or less meaningful moral choice, doesn't mean that ME's moral choice are anywhere deep. There always is something worse.

In ME, you control character development, you make moral
choice but critically those choices matter in the game and to the end
of the game just like in DAO.

Yeah and the game completely leads you on those choices with a preconceived idea. You want to be evil? Lower choice. You want to be good? Upper choice. Oh wow, the depth. 
There's no depth in cookie-cutter, and the choices in ME are absolutely cookie cutter. Paladin or Chaotic-stupid.

You've got decisions with the Urn of
Sacred Ashes that, just in game terms, matters because you can cost
yourself a party member. In ME, you can make a decision to actually
kill a party member at one point.

Looks like the procession of people that didn't play DA:O but come here to run their mouth is continuing. After all this trollish attempt was exactly what generated this thread, so why being surprised?
It's funny to see that the OP and the most stalwart defenders of everything ME don't have DA:O registered in their profile.
You seem not to remember, or better, not to know at all, that in DA:O there is a decision that can either kill a party member, kill yourself, or give absolutely unforseeable consequences in the future. And thats definitely not the only one that give unpredictable results, there are many.
On the other hand in Mass Effect, you simply decide if you wanna be good or chaotic stupid and then you have tyour road paved and well signalled from the beginning to the end.

Those are consequential story
choices that go beyond what weapon to use or rather to go right or
left.

As consequential as killing one of the two flattest characters ever created for a videogame. So flat that besides having boobs or not, they are completely interchangeable, and don't really make much of an apparition in ME2. Sooo consequential, yeah? Lol.

Was JE an RPG? Real time combat, no
inventory control, a pretty linear story-line, no control of your NPC's.

I didn't play jade Empire, and differently from some others in this thread, i don't have the habit to run my mouth about games I didn't play :innocent:

For starters, in ME you don't have to do any of those repetitive side-quests. Likewise, in DA you don't have to do any of the repetitive side-quests either, but the repetitive parts in DA are not just in the side-quests, but in the main quests. One boring room of darkspawn after another after another after another, and it can go on for hours.

As opposed to the boring room of geth, or similar alien race that has absolutely no difference behavior-wise, in environments so linear and similar to each other that it isn't even funny? 
DA:O gives extremely different environments, and with that different tactical situations. Not that a different tactical situation would make any difference in mass effect, since the tactical depth of the game is zero. Aim - > Fire -> Win.

It's pretty obvious that you didn't play DA at all. The circle is extremely different from the Fade (which goes as far as given a Puzzle-ish kind of adventure), the fade is different from redcliffe, redcliffe is different from the forest, the forest is different from the deep roads... need I go on?
As a further proof that you didn't play the game at all and you have no idea of what you're talking about, it's noticeable that only one of those portions of the main quest pitched you against darkspawn.

Oops...

The fact is that the main quests in DA are a hell of a lot more redundant than the main quests in ME, and it is funny that anyone so irritated by the repetition in ME would be so hypocritical (or just so blind) as to not admit that there is even more repetition in DA, which there clearly is.

Or it simply means that that someone has actually played the two games and knows that the repetition you flaut about DA:O simply doesn't exist.

Yes, the repetitive side-quests were the one major flaw of ME, and no one is disputing that. But guess what? In Dragon Age there is the exact same thing going on with the side-quests. The same areas are recycled again and again.

LOL, and pray tell, what are the "recycled" areas in Dragon Age? now i'd be very, very curious, since there'svery little recycling in DA:O  each area looks very different from each other, even different places in the same area (IE: the different areas of the Deep Roads) have a distinctive style to each other.

If you can't admit that, then your opinion on these games is worth next to nothing.

Ooooh gotta love the "if you don't agree with me you are stupid" argument.
I'd advise you to actually play DA:O before coming here to preach. There are simply too many elements in the game that you don't really know, and that shows that you didn't play it, or barely scratched the surface.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 24 janvier 2010 - 08:23 .

[spernus]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Just because there are games with less or less meaningful moral choice, doesn't mean that ME's moral choice are anywhere deep. There always is something worse.

Yeah and the game completely leads you on those choices with a preconceived idea. You want to be evil? Lower choice. You want to be good? Upper choice. Oh wow, the depth. 
There's no depth in cookie-cutter, and the choices in ME are absolutely cookie cutter. Paladin or Chaotic-stupid.

Looks like the procession of people that didn't play DA:O but come here to run their mouth is continuing. After all this trollish attempt was exactly what generated this thread, so why being surprised?
It's funny to see that the OP and the most stalwart defenders of everything ME don't have DA:O registered in their profile.

You seem not to remember, or better, not to know at all, that in DA:O there is a decision that can either kill a party member, kill yourself, or give absolutely unforseeable consequences in the future. And thats definitely not the only one that give unpredictable results, there are many.
On the other hand in Mass Effect, you simply decide if you wanna be good or chaotic stupid and then you have tyour road paved and well signalled from the beginning to the end.


As consequential as killing one of the two flattest characters ever created for a videogame. So flat that besides having boobs or not, they are completely interchangeable, and don't really make much of an apparition in ME2. Sooo consequential, yeah? Lol.

I didn't play jade Empire, and differently from some others in this thread, i don't have the habit to run my mouth about games I didn't play :innocent:

As opposed to the boring room of geth, or similar alien race that has absolutely no difference behavior-wise, in environments so linear and similar to each other that it isn't even funny? 
DA:O gives extremely different environments, and with that different tactical situations. Not that a different tactical situation would make any difference in mass effect, since the tactical depth of the game is zero. Aim - > Fire -> Win.

It's pretty obvious that you didn't play DA at all. The circle is extremely different from the Fade (which goes as far as given a Puzzle-ish kind of adventure), the fade is different from redcliffe, redcliffe is different from the forest, the forest is different from the deep roads... need I go on?
As a further proof that you didn't play the game at all and you have no idea of what you're talking about, it's noticeable that only one of those portions of the main quest pitched you against darkspawn.

Oops...

Or it simply means that that someone has actually played the two games and knows that the repetition you flaut about DA:O simply doesn't exist.

LOL, and pray tell, what are the "recycled" areas in Dragon Age? now i'd be very, very curious, since there'svery little recycling in DA:O  each area looks very different from each other, even different places in the same area (IE: the different areas of the Deep Roads) have a distinctive style to each other.

Ooooh gotta love the "if you don't agree with me you are stupid" argument.
I'd advise you to actually play DA:O before coming here to preach. There are simply too many elements in the game that you don't really know, and that shows that you didn't play it, or barely scratched the surface.

My problem with Dragon Age aren't related to the choices or characters,but the universe itself and he execution of how it was created(especially the module based zone which really cripple towns or the world map).

It just feel banal and stale and I'm sure Bioware will do better in the sequel.

I prefer the Mass effect universe and Jack Wall to Inon Zur,that's for sure. :happy: