173 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Conduit0 wrote...
Its not debatable at all.

Demonstrably wrong by the plethora of mage/Templar debates.

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It would seem, not anymore.

Why?

If Bioware is now editorializing them as being officially oppressive.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
If Bioware is now editorializing them as being officially oppressive.

Even if we ignore how horribly wrong the Bioware site has been (e.g. the ME2 site) this is still only Bioware's [supposed]  stance on the matter. Not an objective reality.

Stop trolling.

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
If Bioware is now editorializing them as being officially oppressive.

Even if we ignore how horribly wrong the Bioware site has been (e.g. the ME2 site) this is still only Bioware's [supposed]  stance on the matter. Not an objective reality.

Stop trolling.

We will, of course, see in the game itself.

[Medhia Nox]

Bah - I'll ignore the term "oppressive" - just like every Pro-Mage supporter ignores every psychotic blood mage.

Oppressive - in modern American anyone using the word "No" is considered "oppressive".

It's hardly a damning word. It's just a word used by fanatic revolutionaries (or spoiled, self-entitled suburbanites in America's case) to describe their enemy.

That being said - both sides will be crushed in my playthrough (so long as that option is available). Otherwise - time to get oppressed you emo-cutting mage psychos.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 juin 2013 - 02:36 .

[Nightdragon8]

GodWood wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Because the Templar's ARE oppressive, circles are prisons for people who commit the heinous crime of being born a mage, and the Templars are the wardens of those prisons.

It doesn't matter which side of the mage/templar argument you fall on, theres no denying that Templars oppress mages.

False.

For something to be 'oppressive' it has to be 'unjust'. Whether the circle system is unjust is very debatable.

I guess you didn't read what he said, so its justifiable to lock away all mages in a building and never let them out, take them away from there families when they are a child, never to have contact with them. That just because they are born with an ablity makes them unwanted.... Where is the "just" in all of that...

They are Born a mage. And that seems to be a crime to the Maker. Yes an untrained mage is a timebomb waiting to go off. But they shouldn't be locked up, and bared from using there power in any helpful way. I mean Remember DA:O a mage stepped forward and said "Let me light the fire" And a Templar said "No your not allowed to do that" 

I'm sorry if the mage is there, why aren't they allowed to do anything?

Now for the landmine part...  think of it as another event, something that happned not too long ago in the past. Lets

[GodWood]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
I guess you didn't read what he said.

I did. You just failed to grasp my point.

For something to be oppressive it has to be 'unjust'. Whether something is unjust or not is subjective, ergo his assertion that Templars are inherently oppressive is false.

It's not that hard.

[BlueMagitek]

Actually, mages are let out of the Circle (see Dragon Age Origins, Awakening). They're even allowed to go out shopping in Val Royux.

Also, that wasn't a Templar, that was a Cleric. The Mage was also Uldred, aka giant pride abomination, so I wouldn't let him light a fire either. :/

[Drasanil]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Yes an untrained mage is a timebomb waiting to go off.

A trained mage is no less of a time bomb, at the very least certainly no less than any random gun owner. Except you know shooting sprees wouldn't even compare damage wise to magicsprees. 

[Vit246]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Bah - I'll ignore the term "oppressive" - just like every Pro-Mage supporter ignores every psychotic blood mage. 

That being said - both sides will be crushed in my playthrough (so long as that option is available). Otherwise - time to get oppressed you emo-cutting mage psychos.

No they don't ignore. And DA2 was a poor representation by Bioware's own admission. And strangely DA2 even had the Enigma of Kirkwall to actually ""justify"" the psychotic blood mages. Take the psychotic mages with a grain of salt.

And please, good luck with your methods to oppress. Cuz the Templars have already tried that for the past 900 years.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juin 2013 - 04:25 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Vit246: If DA:O is the "good" representation - then Templars are not the oppressive monsters people on BSN make them out to be... at all.

That no mage supporter is empathetic toward the fact that Cullen was tortured for an unknown length of time - is very telling of type of willful ignorance displayed in mage support.

Greagor is permissive of every form of violation imaginable under the current Circle rules.

But - of course, he couldn't be considered - he must be dismissed to support a myopic view of mage unaccountability.

The mages are rebels, and worse, violent revolutionaries - the mage I play will oppose them every step of the way (if that's an aspect of this game).

I'm told that the mages hated Wynne at the end for not jumping on their fanatical violent bandwagon... I consider my character in good company.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 juin 2013 - 04:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, DA2 was a poor representation of the mages. The templar representation was just fine.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: To support your fanaticism that is.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: To support your fanaticism that is.

I mean that Bioware said that the mages had issues with representation in DA2, but said nothing about the templars, thus implying that they did exactly what they meant to do artistically with them.

[Medhia Nox]

*shrugs* Doesn't matter really - my view of the average mage was cemented in DA:O - not DA 2.

Jowan, Uldred, Morrigan, Zathrian - heck, even Connor and Anders (Awakening).

Anders and Merrill are only the icing on the cake. (I actually ignored all the bit characters as just story elements - even Dr. Frankenmom and Orsino, who's Frankenmom's ally)

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: To support your fanaticism that is.

Well, the institution of the Chantry controlled Circles is referred to as slavery by some characters - including the pro-mage protagonist. Given the inherent issues with this system and the role the templars played in enforcing it, it's bound to cause some people to hold a dim view of the Templar Order.

[SMillar21]

The way I see it, the mages ARE at war with the "oppressive" Templars, (ie. the Meredith's & Alrik's, more so then the Cullens and Thrasks) but I could be wrong.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lobselvith8: I observe actions (of main characters) - not opinions of in game characters.

Also - I don't support the Templars - I condemn them as much as the mages who revolted violently.

To the Templars of Inquisition - I expect to be perceived as "Just another mage rebel." - and to the mages "A vile traitor to his people."

Not sure - if the "rings" are indication of faction - which of the others I "might" side with. Too little info about the game just yet.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 juin 2013 - 04:28 .

[Vit246]

All being said, I actually prefer not to use the word "oppressive". Much. It is a bit of a buzzword and I like to maintain impersonal tones as much as possible.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juin 2013 - 04:37 .

[Ausstig]

My point, which vit picked up on was that there was no need to use buzz words or lazy German National Socilsist references.

The Templars are already a morally gray faction, as Wyne said, in her story of how she got to the tower, one Templar was cold and the other was kind and had her up on his shoulders.

Some Templars are nice people others are thugish, just like cops/prison officers/soldiers today, they have job of guarding people who are natural disasters waiting to happen, this how people in the Rivan think of abominations, and have great power with all the temptations that follows, they ask good questions about security vs individual freedoms that are cheapened by the use of buzz words (I fully expect a Templar to use the words 'shock and awe' in DA: I) Meredith could have been an interesting character (her sis was a mage that went all deamony, very funny pun Bluemagic,) if we found that out and hell Orsino sounded way more interesting in his bio then he came across in the game.

So in short: No need for buzz words, especially if it is the only one in the paragraph, no stupid Nation soclist (Natso) references it cheapens the argument

Modifié par Ausstig, 12 juin 2013 - 05:49 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

No one left dragon age 2 looking good, not the mages, the templars, the neutrals, the qunari, or the PC.

[Hazegurl]

Ausstig wrote...

My point, which vit picked up on was that there was no need to use buzz words or lazy **** references.

The Templars are already a morally gray faction, as Wyne said, in her story of how she got to the tower, one Templar was cold and the other was kind and had her up on his shoulders.

Some Templars are nice people others are thugish, just like cops/prison officers/soldiers today, they have job of guarding people who are natural disasters waiting to happen, this how people in the Rivan think of abominations, and have great power with all the temptations that follows, they ask good questions about security vs individual freedoms that are cheapened by the use of buzz words (I fully expect a Templar to use the words 'shock and awe' in DA: I) Meredith could have been an interesting character (her sis was a mage that went all deamony, very funny pun Bluemagic,) if we found that out and hell Orsino sounded way more interesting in his bio then he came across in the game.

So in short: No need for buzz words, especially if it is the only one in the paragraph, no stupid **** references it cheapens the argument

I agree. They should let players decide for themselves what a certain group is. Especially if we may be able to choose our factions. People who are new to DA could check out the site see how the Templars are described and walk into the game with their view colored.  But overall I don't care, although I find it funny that some mage supporters are defending it when they were just in a thread whining about how Templars are protrayed as heroes and mages as villians. Seems like Bioware proved that whole thread to be pointless.

To anyone saying the templars looked good: Templars never had their "look good" time. In origins you barely got to know the Templars and your only "Templar" companion didn't even have to do the job, and in DA2...seriously who looked good in that game?

[Xilizhra]

But overall I don't care, although I find it funny that some mage supporters are defending it when they were just in a thread whining about how Templars are protrayed as heroes and mages as villians. Seems like Bioware proved that whole thread to be pointless.

Different supporters in each case. I wasn't in that thread; I already knew that mages have always been on the more heroic side as compared to templars, as it should remain.

To anyone saying the templars looked good: Templars never had their "look good" time. In origins you barely got to know the Templars and your only "Templar" companion didn't even have to do the job, and in DA2...seriously who looked good in that game?

Indeed, they never looked good. But they looked accurate. As they should. That's what matters.

[Hazegurl]

^ If you say so. lol