173 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

But they looked accurate.

Accurate compared to what? Templars (or Mages) in your imagination?

This is BioWare's fictional universe. Whatever BioWare come up with is accurate until they change it.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:11 .

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But they looked accurate.

Accurate compared to what? Templars (or Mages) in your imagination?

This is BioWare's fictional universe. Whatever BioWare come up with is accurate until they change it.

Well, insofar as Bioware hasn't said anything about needing to change them like they did mages.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, insofar as Bioware hasn't said anything about needing to change them like they did mages.

But did they really say they will change Mages? Do you have a source on that?

Anyway by the looks of the trailer I think the chances Mages are being "changed" is slim. At least with regard to their means.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:13 .

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, insofar as Bioware hasn't said anything about needing to change them like they did mages.

But did they really say they will change Mages? Do you have a source on that?

Anyway by the looks of the trailer I think the chances Mages are being "changed" is slim. At least with regard to their means.

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

Flemeth? Corypheus?

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

Literally anybody. It does not follow that every user of magic must be a mage. We saw explicitly in DA2 that otherwise ordinary individuals can gain magical abilities through other means, and also make use of magical artifacts.

Nevermind the fact that it could easily be a natural consequence of bloodshed, which we know weakens the Veil when it occurs in significant amounts.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 juin 2013 - 06:22 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

Flemeth? Corypheus?

Indeed. Either a Mage, or a different Mage.

Doing exactly what Mages in DA2 are doing, except being a lot more competent at it.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:23 .

[d-boy15]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

Could be anyone...

Tavinter magister probably try some epic blood magic to turn the tides against Qunari which resulted in
Veil completely open. Rebel Mages might try something that turn out to be chaos.

or may be Flemeth herself.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We haven't actually seen any mages in the trailer, much less the Circle ones.

We see the Veil being opened wide to let in an army of demons against the Seekers.

Wonder who could have done that.

Flemeth? Corypheus?

Indeed. Either a Mage, or a different Mage.

Doing exactly what Mages in DA2 are doing, except being a lot more competent at it.

The point being that neither is a part of the rebellion. Also, I don't think that Flemeth really counts as a mage; she's not even human/humanoid.

[iOnlySignIn]

Plaintiff wrote...

It does not follow that every user of magic must be a mage. 

How do you define "Mage" then?

Nevermind the fact that it could easily be a natural consequence of bloodshed

Impossible. The Veil weakens, but never opens like that without direct intervetion of powerful Mages.

The Tevinter Magisters sank Arlathan (the largest city in the world at the time) into the ground and destroyed the ancient Elven civilization (a civilization which covered the entire continent) in the process. By your logic the Veil would have opened automatically, or even disappeared altogether, and the Magisters would have walked into the Golden City with no resistence whatsoever. But instead they required a separate, elaborate, and massive ritual to pass across the Veil.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:31 .

[JamieCOTC]

As the Inquisitor, your job is to save the world from itself, which implies that everyone is wrong.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think that Flemeth really counts as a mage; she's not even human/humanoid.

There are Qunari and Darkspawn Mages who are far less humanoid than Flemeth.

Flemeth calls herself an Apostate in DA2.

The point being that neither is a part of the rebellion.

Meh. You might as well say the point is that neither is part of the Libertarian Fraternity or something.

The real point is an apocalypse is being magically summoned to crush Andrastian superstition and it looks like a lot of fun.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:37 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Conduit0 wrote...

Because the Templar's ARE oppressive, circles are prisons for people who commit the heinous crime of being born a mage, and the Templars are the wardens of those prisons.

It doesn't matter which side of the mage/templar argument you fall on, theres no denying that Templars oppress mages.

^ This and what other people have said. You might want to face reality, OP - the Templars have oppressed mages in the past. And lest you forget, not every Templar has been demonized - they showed us decent Templars like Thrask in DA2 who envisioned coexistence with mages. Speaking of the Thrask storyline, it was that female mage hellbent on revenge who ruined things and (rightly) came out looking like the bad guy at the end of it.

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
How do you define "Mage" then?

In the world of Thedas, a "mage" is an individual with inherent magical ability, as opposed to a mundane using a magical artifact, or who gains abilities through demonic possession, both of which we've seen in Dragon Age.

But I already made that distinction, which you would've known if you'd actually read my post as opposed to cherry-picking.

Impossible. The Veil weakens, but never opens like that without direct intervetion of powerful Mages.

Says who?

The Tevinter Magisters sank Arlathan into the ground and destroyed the entire ancient Elven civilization in the process. By your logic the Veil would have opened automatically, or even disappeared, and the Magisters would have walked into the Golden City with no resistence whatsoever. But instead they required a separate, elaborate, and massive ritual to pass across the Veil.

Not necessarily. Even if the sinking of Arlatahn didn't tear the Veil, and you can't prove that it didn't, that doesn't mean that the Veil could never be torn by bloodshed alone. It just means it might take even more bloodshed than that.

Damage done to the Veil is, as far as I can see, permanent, builds up over time, and does not fade away over time (although the Soldier's Peak DLC tells us it can be repaired to a degee). It is very possible that every war and massacre in the history of Thedas has done increasing damage to the Veil over milennia, and this final conflict will be the straw that broke the camel's back.

One need not be a mage to start and manipulate Veil-damaging, wide-scale conflicts, they need only possess sufficient cunning.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 juin 2013 - 06:42 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Plaintiff wrote...

In the world of Thedas, a "mage" is an individual with in herent magical ability, as opposed to a mundane using a magical artifact, or who gains abilities through demonic possession.

I see no meaningful distinction. Magic is a tool - anyone who intends to use it has to learn it first. We haven't yet seen anyone in the DA universe who's born capable of doing Magic. All have to be taught in some way.

Moreover all Magic draw from the power of the Fade. So being possessed by a Demon is merely a more direct way of doing it.

Not necessarily. Even if the sinking of Arlatahn didn't tear the Veil, and you can't prove that it didn't, that doesn't mean that the Veil could never be torn by bloodshed alone. It just means it might take even more bloodshed than that.

More bloodshed than the forcible conquest and destruction of an entire continent? Don't think so.

Damage done to the Veil is, as far as I can see, permanent, and builds up without fading away over time

BS.

If anything the Veil was thinner in ancient Tevinter's time because Demons were summoned by Magisters with far greater frequency. If opening the Veil requires a massive ritual then, it's going to require an even bigger ritual now.

Edit: We can ask Gaider right now whether the Veil opening scene in the trailer is artificially induced or not. I am willing to bet whatever you are.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 12 juin 2013 - 06:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vit246 wrote...

Well, I would argue that mages were more noticeably demonized to a most ridiculous extent in DA2. Mind you, there is at least a grain of truth to the oppression. And while templars are probably demonized as well, hardly anyone seriously addresses the not-so-subtle Tranquil Solution (really lazy of Bioware) and the rapes and tortures and summary Tranquilities because as the player you never actually observe them, while the demonized mages are thrown in your face all the time as if every mage exists solely to be an enemy to all living things.

And such portrayls are part of the problem.

The portrayl of mages went in a completely wrong dieraction. They went with over-the-top in-your-face insanity with mages, which is hard to take serious - and indeed such heavy-handed aprroach can have the opposite effect of rebelling against it (or in other words, deliberatly siding with the mages just to spite the author).
What they should have shown is the more general dangers of magic, not insane manges everywhere.

Templars are also shown badly, but the approach is more sensible (if you exclude crazy Meredith)

[Ausstig]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Because the Templar's ARE oppressive, circles are prisons for people who commit the heinous crime of being born a mage, and the Templars are the wardens of those prisons.

It doesn't matter which side of the mage/templar argument you fall on, theres no denying that Templars oppress mages.

^ This and what other people have said. You might want to face reality, OP - the Templars have oppressed mages in the past. And lest you forget, not every Templar has been demonized - they showed us decent Templars like Thrask in DA2 who envisioned coexistence with mages. Speaking of the Thrask storyline, it was that female mage hellbent on revenge who ruined things and (rightly) came out looking like the bad guy at the end of it.

Your view. 

The Templars are keeping people who can turn into natural disasters under control, are they soft no are they opressive? I would say no. The Mages have good food a warm bed and clean cloths, not to mention family can vist (as in arl Emon types rich people who can aford to travel) and they can go places, under certain conditions, (the mage in DA: O: A is a good example and there are mages who buy thing in Val's markets.

So I would not call that oppressive, short leash, tightly controled but not a boot on the face of every mage forever.  

Ok there is one templar who is nice, who also kidnapps your loved one, so he can also come off as an idot (much everyone in that game) but my point was the Natso references, the murder happy templars, I like what Trask was asking, but it undermined it self when he started kidnapping people, why not  nice templar who does his job? Like if Cullen at then end got more screen time, not part of the Templar side of the end. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Conduit0 wrote...
Its not debatable at all, people are punished for simply being born a mage, there is no justice in preemptively punishing an otherwise innocent person because they might do something bad in the future.

It's not a punishment.
Words have meaning, so carefull which words you use.

Justice itself is a nebolous concept that is impossible to uphold in the world, since it doesn't exist in it's pure form.
What IS justice? What does person X deserve, and why? Why should person X get it?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juin 2013 - 11:26 .

[Dova]

MR_PN wrote...

sigh...oppressive is objective... the Templars do lock mages up, and beat them sometimes, rape, tranquility its all there. And the mages are fighting for their freedom. whether for the right or wrong reasons, it is freedom.

And thats why they turn to Blood Magic. I mean you get idiot mages like Jowan from Origins who dabbled too make him a better mage, but most mages agree that what they do is for freedom. 

But then sometimes you gotta agree with the Templars for locking them up. With them locked up, they can't do blood magic. Or they'll just be a demon locked in a cell. 

[The Valiant Misanthropist]

I don't wear Biowear because it's tacky and unfashionable.