173 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I see no meaningful distinction. Magic is a tool - anyone who intends to use it has to learn it first. We haven't yet seen anyone in the DA universe who's born capable of doing Magic. All have to be taught in some way.

Except for, y'know, all of the mages.

That they need to be taught is irrelevent, there is an obvious distinction between those with natural magical talent and those who acquire it through other means. For starters, the Chantry imprisons the latter and has nothing to say about the former. In fact, mainstream Thedas doesn't even seem aware that acquiring magic through other means is even possible. 

That you fail to see a distinction is irrelevent, the definition of a "mage" in Thedas is clear. 

Moreover all Magic draw from the power of the Fade. So being possessed by a Demon is merely a more direct way of doing it.

But it doesn't make you a "mage" by the standards of Thedas society.

More bloodshed than the forcible conquest and destruction of an entire continent? Don't think so.

Arlathan wasn't a continent, it existed within Thedas.

The world population couldn't have possibly increased since ancient times. That would just be silly.

If anything the Veil was thinner in ancient Tevinter's time because Demons were summoned by Magisters with far greater frequency. If opening the Veil requires a massive ritual then, it's going to require an even bigger ritual now.

Who says it was thinner? Even if it was, maybe it has been repaired since then. Who says the Veil even existed? Maybe the Veil is itself an artificial magical construct, created to make demon-summoning more difficult.

Edit: We can ask Gaider right now whether the Veil opening scene in the trailer is artificially induced or not. I am willing to bet whatever you are.

Pfft. I'm sure he'll just give up that extremely pertinent plot point.

Besides, if someone was manipulating events to create wide-spread bloodshed in order to rend the Veil, that would still count as "artificially induced".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 12 juin 2013 - 07:22 .

[Ravensword]

Drasanil wrote...

Its not debatable at all, people are punished for simply being born a mage, there is no justice in preemptively punishing an otherwise innocent person because they might do something bad in the future.

Except it's not, most people support gun control, why shouldn't they also support mage control? Mages are infinitly more dnagerous than any gun. 

This is a very interesting analogy. II do see the necessity for the Circle, but the difference between a gun and a mage is that the latter is human. Now if you want to argue for a mage registry then that's fine, although you wouldn't be able to argue for a firearm registry.

[AtreiyaN7]

Ausstig wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Because the Templar's ARE oppressive, circles are prisons for people who commit the heinous crime of being born a mage, and the Templars are the wardens of those prisons.

It doesn't matter which side of the mage/templar argument you fall on, theres no denying that Templars oppress mages.

^ This and what other people have said. You might want to face reality, OP - the Templars have oppressed mages in the past. And lest you forget, not every Templar has been demonized - they showed us decent Templars like Thrask in DA2 who envisioned coexistence with mages. Speaking of the Thrask storyline, it was that female mage hellbent on revenge who ruined things and (rightly) came out looking like the bad guy at the end of it.

Your view. 

The Templars are keeping people who can turn into natural disasters under control, are they soft no are they opressive? I would say no. The Mages have good food a warm bed and clean cloths, not to mention family can vist (as in arl Emon types rich people who can aford to travel) and they can go places, under certain conditions, (the mage in DA: O: A is a good example and there are mages who buy thing in Val's markets.

So I would not call that oppressive, short leash, tightly controled but not a boot on the face of every mage forever.  

Ok there is one templar who is nice, who also kidnapps your loved one, so he can also come off as an idot (much everyone in that game) but my point was the Natso references, the murder happy templars, I like what Trask was asking, but it undermined it self when he started kidnapping people, why not  nice templar who does his job? Like if Cullen at then end got more screen time, not part of the Templar side of the end. 

Meredith's behavior was oppressive and don't try to pretend it was otherwise. Her restrictions became ever more harsh over the years to the point that she was driving the Kirkwall mages dangerously close to rebellion all on her own. Heck, she sure seemed to make the lives of your average non-mage citizens miserable too, judging by how crappy life in Kirkwall seemed to be.

And as far as I'm concerned, having a warm bed and food are not a fair exchange for having your freedom taken from you and for having your life dictated to you. How many rights is someone expected to give up based on who they are or what wrongs they could hypothetically commit? Mages certainly need to be dealt with carefully and they certainly need to live up to higher standards, but when you start executing people or abusing them or otherwise treating them harshly while they're under your dominion, then that's oppression to me.

It wasn't right when Japanese Americans were put in internment camps during WWII because of who they were. They had warm beds and food too (well, actually I expect that the beds may not have been that warm). They also had their land, their homes, their livelihoods, and their freedom unjustly taken away. But I'm sure you'll tell me that they weren't being oppressed or unfairly treated, right?

It doesn't matter how comfortable a cage is - it's still a cage at the end of the day. In any case, I think it's been shown that there are good people and bad people on both sides of the conflict, and I do not believe that the Templars have unjustly been painted in a bad light.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 juin 2013 - 07:37 .

[Dova]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Meredith's behavior was oppressive and don't try to pretend it was otherwise. Her restrictions became ever more harsh over the years to the point that she was driving the Kirkwall mages dangerously close to rebellion all on her own.

This is true. Cullen even agrees with this if prompted to ask him his opinion on the rumors of Meredith.

[Kelgair]

The Valiant Misanthropist wrote...

I don't wear Biowear because it's tacky and unfashionable.

Not to mention if you get wine on the chitin it never washes out.

[wolfhowwl]

I laughed when I heard about the Tranquil Solution, so awful, so hamfisted.

Shaking my head, Bioware.

Anyhow, the presentation of both sides has been pretty problematic.

We get a portrayal of Templars as cartoonish villains, complete with goosestepping crypto-****s and rapists. Since Bioware made the Templars look so ridiculous to begin with, we then get to suffer psychotic bloodmages coming out of the woodwork so there is "balance."

Instead of shades of gray, something that makes you think about both sides and their beliefs, you just wonder why there wasn't an option to exterminate both stupidly evil factions and end the misery of dealing with them.

Unfortunately there seems to be some people who only have a problem with the terrible portrayal of the mages, perhaps more interested in ideology than an interesting, morally ambiguous story.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 12 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[thebigbad1013]

Well, the templars are oppressive, aren't they? The mages are/were forced to live in the circles whether they liked it or not (unless they become apostates, in which case they'd be hunted) so the phrasing is absolutely accurate.

[Sutekh]

 @OP: Maybe "oppressive" doesn't qualify all Templars, but is there to narrow the scope? 

You know, "Oppressive Templars" as opposed to "Nice Templars who dedicate their lives to the protection and well-being of the people in Thedas and the proper supervision of Mages through tolerance, education, support and benevolent authority. All five of them."

[Ausstig]

Sutekh wrote...

 @OP: Maybe "oppressive" doesn't qualify all Templars, but is there to narrow the scope? 

You know, "Oppressive Templars" as opposed to "Nice Templars who dedicate their lives to the protection and well-being of the people in Thedas and the proper supervision of Mages through tolerance, education, support and benevolent authority. All five of them."

Or just "the Templars", why the adjective. Why is it needed at all? Other then to preduice people who don't know anything about the game towards siding with the mages.

If the Templars are so obviously oppressive (although Thedas is a middle ages society and econmy where a warm bed and good food are not universal) then people can form that opion them selves while playing the game.  

Modifié par Ausstig, 12 juin 2013 - 08:31 .

[Alan Rickman]

Filament wrote...

becuz biowear knows they r the tru deamuns

http://forum.cheaten...1094833_177.png

[Sutekh]

Ausstig wrote...

Or just "the Templars", why the adjective. Why is it needed at all? Other then to preduice people who don't know anything about the game towards siding with the mages.

If the Templars are so obviously oppressive (although Thedas is a middle ages society and econmy where a warm bed and good food are not universal) then people can form that opion them selves while playing the game. 

As I said, maybe the adjective is there to make a distinction between bad Templars (who must be fought against) and good Templars.

This said, don't take what I wrote too seriously. I'm grasping at straws.

I noticed it just like you, and it bothered me a bit too. I'm pro-mages in this mess, but I'd rather they let us make up our own mind and take whatever side we want - or better yet, no particular side at all - instead of "subtly" nudging us towards one in particular. And yes, "oppressive" is doing just that, especially for people who just discover the setting and don't know the lore yet. 

No big deal, though. The website isn't the most accurate of sources (although, right now, it's the only official one).

Modifié par Sutekh, 12 juin 2013 - 08:57 .

[Augustei]

Xilizhra wrote...

Truth hurts, don't it?

Heck no, every time the Templars do something bad I justify it as necessary and use my insane logic to justify my silly opinions.. I learned from the most avid mage supporters well =D

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 12 juin 2013 - 09:36 .

[ashesandwine]

I support the Circle of Magi with some changes. The truth is, there are bad apples on both sides. The templars are not all oppressive zealots, and mages are not all innocent angels. The most extreme solution I came up with is to free all the mages. Let them out in the world and let everyone fight for themselves. If the mages wreck havoc onto Thedas, then the government should revive the templar order and Circle of Magi. Yes, I am willing to risk many lives for this experiment. But lives are being lost regardless. I'm only interested in the result, an answer to the question: As a whole, can mages behave appropriately with freedom?

Modifié par ashesandwine, 12 juin 2013 - 09:59 .

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It would seem, not anymore.

Why?

It's no longer debatable because the Circle is totally justified, demons are rampaging across the world.

The chantry and templars wanted to remain ignorant to the dangers of magic in thedas looking only internally. they really should have looked outside their narrow mind set. The templars can no longer be justified as a whole because simply put they cannot protect the people any longer.

[Ausstig]

DKJaigen wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It would seem, not anymore.

Why?

It's no longer debatable because the Circle is totally justified, demons are rampaging across the world.

The chantry and templars wanted to remain ignorant to the dangers of magic in thedas looking only internally. they really should have looked outside their narrow mind set. The templars can no longer be justified as a whole because simply put they cannot protect the people any longer.

What do you mean? Mages can be taken over by deamons, use mind control powers and wreak stuff. Did you think Mages can ripe open the vale in the middle of sky 

[Lotion Soronarr]

I find it highly unlikely that Veil being torn in the product of war and not a ritual.

For one, there have been many bloody wars, and on a lot bigger scale than mages vs. tempalrs - the blights, the qunati invasion

For another, weakining the veil is LOCALIZED. And many know that.
I dobut anyone would want to fight where the vail is weak - especailly sicne such location are generally easy to identify..

[Lotion Soronarr]

ashesandwine wrote...

I support the Circle of Magi with some changes. The truth is, there are bad apples on both sides. The templars are not all oppressive zealots, and mages are not all innocent angels. The most extreme solution I came up with is to free all the mages. Let them out in the world and let everyone fight for themselves. If the mages wreck havoc onto Thedas, then the government should revive the templar order and Circle of Magi. Yes, I am willing to risk many lives for this experiment. But lives are being lost regardless. I'm only interested in the result, an answer to the question: As a whole, can mages behave appropriately with freedom?

Do you even need an experiment to get an answer to that one?

Lives are lost regardless...yes, but fewer of them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
In the world of Thedas, a "mage" is an individual with inherent magical ability, as opposed to a mundane using a magical artifact, or who gains abilities through demonic possession, both of which we've seen in Dragon Age.

Those don't compare.

Muundanes get VERY rarely possesed and the resulting "abomination" is nowhere near as powerfull as the real deal.

Magical items are triffles comapred to mages. The only item so far that we've seen grants great power is the lyrium idol. And that probably has more to do with gameplay and boss battle balancing than actual lore stuff. I personally found that whole Super-Summersaulting Meredith and brinign statues to live bit to be horrible and redicolously game-y.

[MisterJB]

It's impressive how quickly one's expectations can plummet. Hopefully, it's not an accurate description of the game or I may just save some money.

[Xilizhra]

Magical items are triffles comapred to mages. The only item so far that we've seen grants great power is the lyrium idol. And that probably has more to do with gameplay and boss battle balancing than actual lore stuff. I personally found that whole Super-Summersaulting Meredith and brinign statues to live bit to be horrible and redicolously game-y.

So because you don't like it, it's not canon?

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

Magical items are triffles comapred to mages. The only item so far that we've seen grants great power is the lyrium idol. And that probably has more to do with gameplay and boss battle balancing than actual lore stuff. I personally found that whole Super-Summersaulting Meredith and brinign statues to live bit to be horrible and redicolously game-y.

So because you don't like it, it's not canon?

You already know Lotion Soronnar can change reality by wishing.

Waaaaaaaiiiiiiiiit a minute...

[Killer3000ad]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for the mages.

I do hope the actual game isn't one-sided in portraying the Templars as the good guys and the mages as evil. Fact of the matter is, you can easily see this whole conflict as the mages trying to break free from the oppressive Templars. Mages are people too you know, and they are only driven to blood magic because of the Templars. If only the Templars didn't treat every mage like a ticking time-bomb all this could have been avoided.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 12 juin 2013 - 01:46 .

[Darth Death]

Mages are too dangerous to allow freedom; their freedom is linked to chaos & demons. It would be different if mages didn't possess magic, but since they do they're overpowering & must be controlled. It'd seem magic is the true culprit.

[Noctis Augustus]

What? They are oppressive. What's the problem? Truth hurts?

I find it funny, strange funny not haha funny (lulz), that the pro-templars treat the mages as if they weren't of the same species as the non-mages. They impose unjust laws on mages just because they are different and they get unhappy when people call them oppressive? Now I find it haha funny.

Modifié par Noctis Augustus, 12 juin 2013 - 02:39 .

[Bizantura]

If I where an alien I would put all the peoples of earth in quarantine on the earth looking at there conduct worldwide. But thats just me.