173 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. C]

KainD wrote...

Mr. C wrote...
Blood magic has no excuse

What kind of excuse do you need? Blood magic is useful - it's wise to learn useful things. Some types of magic are blood exclusive. If I was a mage I would definetely learn blood magic, if only just for the heck of it, knowledge is good.

As long as mages continue using Blood magic, they are irreedeemable in the eyes of the general public. If Apostates resist the Templars in ANY other way, they would have a lot more support from non-Chantry affiliated mundanes. Such knowledge comes from what most people consider "evil". Mages cannot expect people to sympathize with their plight when Apostates use demonic magic "for the heck of it"

[BouncyFrag]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Can someone please make a new mascot for Dragon Age 3 called the Biobear? I just read the title of this thread and that is literally all I could think of.

Scroll down to bottom of page.

[KainD]

Mr. C wrote...
As long as mages continue using Blood magic, they are irreedeemable in the eyes of the general public. If Apostates resist the Templars in ANY other way, they would have a lot more support from non-Chantry affiliated mundanes. Such knowledge comes from what most people consider "evil". Mages cannot expect people to sympathize with their plight when Apostates use demonic magic "for the heck of it"

That's why mages should stop being naive about their hopes to live in the mundane society properly and just go and join Tevinter. 

[Mr. C]

KainD wrote...

Mr. C wrote...
As long as mages continue using Blood magic, they are irreedeemable in the eyes of the general public. If Apostates resist the Templars in ANY other way, they would have a lot more support from non-Chantry affiliated mundanes. Such knowledge comes from what most people consider "evil". Mages cannot expect people to sympathize with their plight when Apostates use demonic magic "for the heck of it"

That's why mages should stop being naive about their hopes to live in the mundane society properly and just go and join Tevinter. 

That should be their choice. Most non-Tevinter magi don't approve of the Magister's methods any more than mundanes do. What is the difference between locking them in a tower and sending them to some foreign hell they don't want to live in to begin with? You're still robbing them of their families and home

Modifié par Mr. C, 12 juin 2013 - 06:22 .

[KainD]

Mr. C wrote...
That should be their choice. Most non-Tevinter magi don't approve of the Magister's methods any more than mundanes do. What is the difference between locking them in a tower and sending them to some foreign hell they don't want to live in to begin with? You're still robbing them of their families and home

It is their choice.. That's what I said.
Smart mages wouldn't try to reason with mundanes it's dumb. Unite, fight and counquer, that's what the mages should do, that's what Tevinter mages did once - they showed everyone what they are capable of, and now live wealthy and with higher status. Mages don't like Tevinter? Make their own analogue in the way they see fit. No? Well then die for trying to reason with mundanes at the hands of mundanes, or get locked up. Mages in Thedas are too soft, no one should tolerate that kind of attitude towards them with that kind of power at their fingertips. 

Modifié par KainD, 12 juin 2013 - 06:56 .

[Vit246]

Mr. C wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...

Allow me to play devil's advocate here for the mages.

I do hope the actual game isn't one-sided in portraying the Templars as the good guys and the mages as evil. Fact of the matter is, you can easily see this whole conflict as the mages trying to break free from the oppressive Templars. Mages are people too you know, and they are only driven to blood magic because of the Templars. If only the Templars didn't treat every mage like a ticking time-bomb all this could have been avoided.

I get so sick of hearing the old tired spiel of "Bad bad Templars make the innocent Mages turn to Blood magic!" That is complete BS. If a mage truly put their backs into it, a powerful lightning storm could cause as much damage to a platoon of Templars as Blood magic. If Apostates (as the Chantry sees them) would hone their "legal" magic as much as they turn to Blood Magic, they would not only cause more physical damage, but also be less likely to be branded as Maleficarum as soon as they run away.

Blood magic is a coward and a psychopath's tool, not one that frightened innocents need when faced by big men with swords.

Mages cannot rely on Chantry-sanctioned legal conventional magic because Templars can nullify it. Do you understand that? If someone can turn off your gun in a gunfight, would you still take your chances with that? Or would you use something else thats hardly any more different or morally qustionable and won't turn off? Most mages turn to blood magic not because they're cowards or psychopaths, but because its the only known magic Templars don't know how to turn off. Why is blood magic worse than electrocution or burning? A coward's tool, you call it? There is no such thing in a fight.

Aside from Meredith, we haven't seen ONE Templar nullifying magic. They charge in gung-ho with their swords most of the time. Electrocution and burning doesn't require life energy and/or a Demon's assistance to cast. Hell, Apostates should learn to fight with melee weapons. Even if a Templar de-magics them temporarily, they're not sitting ducks. Alistair said he's just a guy in a metal suit against a Mundane, which have been fought for centuries by non-magic combatants. Blood magic has no excuse

Don't be ridiculous. Get it right. Meredith is no different from any other Templar. Templars are Templars because they can nullify magic in gameplay and lore. Its in the damn Codex. Blood magic is almost required because its the only magic that Templars don't know how to nullify. Blood magic does not automatically require demons, and so what if it uses life energy? You can use your own life energy without violating anyone else's, or you can use your enemy's. Sure, mages could learn to use melee weapons, but why would do that when magic is far easier to use at range against professionally trained warriors trained in melee weapons? You would have to find trainers and train for weeks or months to use melee weapons effectively.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juin 2013 - 07:34 .

[Dabrikishaw]

3 Templars. 3. Templars. Ser Alrik. Ser Karras. Knight-Commander Meredith Stannard. every other templar with a name is a decent person first and at worst an addict. Templars after that are random encounters, who are still following orders.

Modifié par Dabrikishaw, 12 juin 2013 - 07:55 .

[JoltDealer]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Can someone please make a new mascot for Dragon Age 3 called the Biobear? I just read the title of this thread and that is literally all I could think of.

Scroll down to bottom of page.

You sir, are a beautiful man.

[Vit246]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Well, I would argue that mages were more noticeably demonized to a most ridiculous extent in DA2. Mind you, there is at least a grain of truth to the oppression. And while templars are probably demonized as well, hardly anyone seriously addresses the not-so-subtle Tranquil Solution (really lazy of Bioware) and the rapes and tortures and summary Tranquilities because as the player you never actually observe them, while the demonized mages are thrown in your face all the time as if every mage exists solely to be an enemy to all living things.

And such portrayls are part of the problem.

The portrayl of mages went in a completely wrong dieraction. They went with over-the-top in-your-face insanity with mages, which is hard to take serious - and indeed such heavy-handed aprroach can have the opposite effect of rebelling against it (or in other words, deliberatly siding with the mages just to spite the author).
What they should have shown is the more general dangers of magic, not insane manges everywhere.

Templars are also shown badly, but the approach is more sensible (if you exclude crazy Meredith)

Everybody makes a damning connection between Orsino and Quentin all because of that one stupid letter implying without context, and nobody blames Meredith for ordering Templar Emeric to stop his investigation on the serial killer blood mage Quentin, even though it makes no damn sense for Meredith, of all people, to do such a thing. Nobody blames Templars for incompetency and counter-productiveness. All the insane mages running around and just what are the Templars doing? And the Tranquil Solution with the cheap N@zi parallels and Hitler probably had the effect making people not taking Templar atrocities seriously, especially since it disappears as soon it it shows up and is just brushed off by everybody. Tranquil ALL the mages? No big deal.

And I still sided with mages in the end partly just to spite the writers and Gaider for obviously wanting me to play their way.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 juin 2013 - 09:28 .

[Ausstig]

So vit what are you saying I am a little confused, by what point you are making

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I get the feeling you wouldn't know a dictionary if it fell on you.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion,national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

Cullen's actions and attitude absolutely qualify. The fact that one negative experience, however extreme, was enough to colour his views on an entire people for a lasting period of time only demonstrates that he was pre-disposed to that kind of thinking.

Fun fact: Everyones a bigot to a degree.
Because there will always be SOME characteristic that you will despise in people.

[Pzykozis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fun fact: Everyones a bigot to a degree.
Because there will always be SOME characteristic that you will despise in people.

There's wiggle room between despising a view and being intolerant of one, likewise you can despise a person but tolerate them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Contempt and hatered count too.

Also, tolerance because you are prevented to express it fully (physicly or by law or social pressure) can barely be considered tolerance.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I get the feeling you wouldn't know a dictionary if it fell on you.

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion,national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

Cullen's actions and attitude absolutely qualify. The fact that one negative experience, however extreme, was enough to colour his views on an entire people for a lasting period of time only demonstrates that he was pre-disposed to that kind of thinking.

Fun fact: Everyones a bigot to a degree.
Because there will always be SOME characteristic that you will despise in people.

True but you can suppres it. i look on the entire mage problem with pragmatism and yes templar supporters have a point. But this point is entirely insignificant when you look at the larger picture. Now that full blown demonic invasion occurs the templars dont have the ability to protect the common people. Mages however do as they are the only ones that can seal the barriers between the wordls. But it would not be suprising if the circle mages dont have the knowledge to close it as the chantry have stymied magical reasearch for the last 1000 years.

The backward policies of the chantry are self destructive to say the least. If you believe that a problem goes away if you ignore it then you are simply deluding yourself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I have never heard of closing the veil anywhere. Got some sauce?

Alos, Templars can protect the common people. Abominations are also mages and cast magic.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have never heard of closing the veil anywhere. Got some sauce?

Avernus dealt with the Veil in Warden's Keep, once the possessed Sophia is dealt with. Alternatively, the demonic Sophia can deal with the veil as well.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alos, Templars can protect the common people. Abominations are also mages and cast magic.

They seem to be focused on hunting down mages who gained autonomy.

[Sable Rhapsody]

BouncyFrag wrote...
Scroll down to bottom of page.

This has made my day.  Thank you, good sir, for linking it.

[Assassino01]

To say the Templars weren't oppressing the mages is a bit too stupid to be taken seriously, in my opinion that is.

Let's take at a look at the circle system, and how it treats mages.

Mages are feared in Thedas. Why? Because the primary source of education and moral guidance in the Andrastian nations have been spreading stories about how evil they are, and how easily they fall to wicked demons for about 9 centuries. It doesn't help that the only mages a peasant is likely to encounter is either headed out to fight war for the Chantry, an apostate on the run, or a frightened untrained child.

So when a mage child is discovered the Templars come and take himher away, and they're never allowed to see their family again (unless you're rich or a noble), and the family of the mage no doubt is shunned by their fellow villagers for having magic blood in their family as well (like the Amell's, and they were nobles, how do you suppose commoners are treated?).

Anyway, so now you've got the kid in a circle. Okay, you get to sleep in a bed, and you've got a roof. But you can only go where the templars allow you to go, you have no privacy, and you can not leave, ever. It's kind of like a prison...

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions.

Then you get to be a full mage. Not much improvement. You still have no private life, and the templars can do whatever they want to do to you. If they want to rape you, they're free to do so. Because nobody will believe the word of a mage above that of a templar. And try to defend yourself and you're tranquil within the week.

But wait, there is more!

If the Chantry is threatened by something. Be it darkspawn, Qunari, or those nasty nasty Tevinters it's YOU who have to go and fight them. Not the templars who're supposed to protect you. No, "magic is meant to serve man" after all.

If anyone tries to rebel, and the templars get tired of it. Guess what? The templars can kill everyone in your circle at will! You had no part of it? Too bad! You're a mage. Rights are tossed out the window as soon as the word applies to you.

In addition comes all the wonderful things like being accussed of blood magic on a regular basis. Threats of that magic prison place. Endless religious sermons telling you you're the scum of the earth and so on.

Face it, the templars oppress mages.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have never heard of closing the veil anywhere. Got some sauce?

Alos, Templars can protect the common people. Abominations are also mages and cast magic.

If the barriers between worlds fall the templars are a liability. So far we have not seen a single instance where templars are able to handle demonic opponents. in fact templars are corrupted very quickly by the demons. its not illogical to believe that the lyrium warped minds of the templars leave them more suspectible to demonic influences.

The very narrow training of the templars (namely hunt and nullify circle mages) is not suited for demon hunting. Demons possess different powers, in fact we dont even know if templars anti magical abilities even work on demons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Assassino01 wrote...

Mages are feared in Thedas. Why? Because the primary source of education and moral guidance in the Andrastian nations have been spreading stories about how evil they are, and how easily they fall to wicked demons for about 9 centuries.

I'm sure that mages being actually dangerous and in danger of becoming possesed has NOTHING to do with it whatsoever.

So when a mage child is discovered the Templars come and take himher away, and they're never allowed to see their family again (unless you're rich or a noble).

Unconfirmed

Anyway, so now you've got the kid in a circle. Okay, you get to sleep in a bed, and you've got a roof. But you can only go where the templars allow you to go, you have no privacy, and you can not leave, ever. It's kind of like a prison...

False. Templars can't even search a mages room without permission.... IN KIRKWALL.

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon.

That's the whole f**** point of the test.
Knowing what to expect would ruin it completely. You'd just tell the demon to deal with later, after the harrowing.

If the Chantry is threatened by something. Be it darkspawn, Qunari, or those nasty nasty Tevinters it's YOU who have to go and fight them. Not the templars who're supposed to protect you. No, "magic is meant to serve man" after all.

Templars always go with mages in war

If anyone tries to rebel, and the templars get tired of it. Guess what? The templars can kill everyone in your circle at will! You had no part of it? Too bad! You're a mage. Rights are tossed out the window as soon as the word applies to you.

Anullment is called because of blood magic or corruption, not simple rebellion.

Endless religious sermons telling you you're the scum of the earth and so on.

Bollocks.

[Jackums]

Xilizhra wrote...

Truth hurts, don't it?

[Vit246]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions.

I'm ignoring the rest of your post for now to focus on this.

Do you really think this is unusual? I bet Tevinter and the Dalish do something very similar when it is time for a mage to complete their training

His point was that Circle mages are not actually taught anything about how exactly to defend against demons, not just making them face a demon at all itself. Demonic knowledge beyond the names is restricted. And they are basically forced into a trial with no say and no knowledge of what exactly is gonna happen, just like in the Mage Origin, at least until it already begins. Thats not proper training. And Tevinter and the Dalish probably teach their own mages about how to fight against demons extensively.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Harrowing is created BY MAGES, and IIRC, it dates back long before the circles.

[Vit246]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Harrowing is created BY MAGES, and IIRC, it dates back long before the circles.

And NOW the Harrowing is conducted by the Templars with their own way of doing things.

And cite that info.

Modifié par Vit246, 13 juin 2013 - 03:50 .