173 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

Morocco Mole wrote...
So because the Circle uses it now it is evil and wrong? 

What? That does not address anything.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions.

I'm ignoring the rest of your post for now to focus on this.

Do you really think this is unusual? I bet Tevinter and the Dalish do something very similar when it is time for a mage to complete their training

Merrill never mentioned being almost murdered... so, I'm going to go with no.

[Assassino01]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions.

I'm ignoring the rest of your post for now to focus on this.

Do you really think this is unusual? I bet Tevinter and the Dalish do something very similar when it is time for a mage to complete their training

Yes, I think that seeing as the harowing might end with the death of the mage, it's strange that the mages do not recieve any training in resisting demons. I think it's strange that mages aren't given lessons on how to see through a demon's tricks, or how to fight them in the fade. We know that it's only a question of willpower and wit. IF the mages don't agree to be possessed then the demons can't touch them after all. So yes, I find it strange. Or, actually, I don't find it strange since it reduces the mage population, and gives the templars an excuse to make the troublemakers tranquil.

EDIT: I will be ignoring Lotion Soronnar's reply, seeing as he seems too bent on replying with sarcasm and crude one line responses. I'm not going to be trading cheap insults with him.

Modifié par Assassino01, 13 juin 2013 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

You're right. Merrill's existence proves that Dalish don't make their mages undergo the Harrowing. Since she would have failed it in seconds.

Your understanding of certain characters seems sadly limited.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're right. Merrill's existence proves that Dalish don't make their mages undergo the Harrowing. Since she would have failed it in seconds.

Your understanding of certain characters seems sadly limited.

Considering that Merrill is a blood mage who's trained directly by the clan Keeper, she failed hard in "Night Terrors".

[hitenchi]

 While i am pro mage i do feel the to some extent the circle is needed, so mages can learn how to use and control their abilities, a point of contention that mages are ticking time bombs, is that while it may be true that elven mages arent perfect, the elven mages seem to be able to fit in with their society relatively well, and become an addition to their community without being under constant watch, so i feel that the circle should be more like a school then a prision. Though it should be noted that before anders went emmm full anders lol that mages were allowed to roam parts of the city and even trade on particular days though under watch. It also true though that if their family doesnt live in the city they are not really able to contact them which is a problem.

What a lot of pro mage people forget is that no matter what you say mages are extremely dangerous and so generally i would have to say their need to be a system of monitiring them but one that isnt so much as a prison.

[DKJaigen]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So because the Circle uses it now it is evil and wrong? 

To be honest it could be greatly improved before you start using this test. According to the kirkwall tower twice as more junior mages fail this test so it seems it can be infuenced. 

[DKJaigen]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You're right. Merrill's existence proves that Dalish don't make their mages undergo the Harrowing. Since she would have failed it in seconds.

Your understanding of certain characters seems sadly limited.

Considering that Merrill is a blood mage who's trained directly by the clan Keeper, she failed hard in "Night Terrors".

everybody fails hard in night terrors.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your understanding of certain characters seems sadly limited.

Let me guess.

Merrill is a visionary who was misunderstood by the dalish and should have been allowed to study the mirror to her heart's content

Well, yeah.

Considering that Merrill is a blood mage who's trained directly by the clan Keeper, she failed hard in "Night Terrors".

Not even slightly. She was mind controlled like everyone else, in a Dreamer-empowered Fade realm, by a pride demon. She never falls under the influence of the demon in the real world, to be sure.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Considering that Merrill is a blood mage who's trained directly by the clan Keeper, she failed hard in "Night Terrors".

Not even slightly. She was mind controlled like everyone else, in a Dreamer-empowered Fade realm, by a pride demon. She never falls under the influence of the demon in the real world, to be sure.

Unlike everyone else barring Justice/Anders, Merrill is supposed to be trained to resist demons, while she's a blood mage who converses with a pride demon. 

As for the bolded is there a link that proves it had an effect on the potency of the demon's power or Merrill's mental vunerability?

She never falls under the influnce of the demon in the real world to be sure.

Feynriel would've been relieved to hear that.

[Xilizhra]

Unlike everyone else barring Justice/Anders, Merrill is supposed to be trained to resist demons, while she's a blood mage who converses with a pride demon.

As for the bolded is there a link that proves it had an effect on the potency of the demon's power or Merrill's mental vunerability?

No, it's an inference from the fact that the demons can pull their bit off just by talking for a short while, something that they've never demonstrated an ability to do IRL.

[The Hierophant]

So it's only an assumption?

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

So it's only an assumption?

Inference. And how does it even matter? She came through the events with the demon that actually cared about her just fine (not that she didn't make it out of Night Terrors just fine), while Marethari didn't.

[BouncyFrag]

There should have been a bit in the trailer after the massive rip in the fade unleashes demonic forces onto Thedas where a Templar points to the sky and says "I told you so."

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

So it's only an assumption?

Inference. And how does it even matter? She came through the events with the demon that actually cared about her just fine (not that she didn't make it out of Night Terrors just fine), while Marethari didn't.

Wryme never expressed such a sentiment, while Audacity only cared about escaping the statue as it witheld vital information for completing the Eluvian as a bargaining chip.

[MisterJB]

Assassino01 wrote...
Mages are feared in Thedas. Why? Because the primary source of education and moral guidance in the Andrastian nations have been spreading stories about how evil they are, and how easily they fall to wicked demons for about 9 centuries. It doesn't help that the only mages a peasant is likely to encounter is either headed out to fight war for the Chantry, an apostate on the run, or a frightened untrained child.

Cultures do not form out of thin air. The reason Andrastianism preaches extreme caution when dealing with magic it's because it's a culture firmed by the descendants of people who labored over the tyranny of magic for over a thousand years and who had to fight to the death to be free.  Do you expect these people to be fond of magic. And it is not as if the Andrastian culture is the only one that recognizes the dangers of magic; the Qun do so as well.
Mages are feared primarely because Thedas has had numerous examples of how easily magic can be used to harm others..

So when a mage child is discovered the Templars come and take himher away, and they're never allowed to see their family again (unless you're rich or a noble), and the family of the mage no doubt is shunned by their fellow villagers for having magic blood in their family as well (like the Amell's, and they were nobles, how do you suppose commoners are treated?).

Did you know that in medieval times people didn't travel much due the limitations in technology and quality of life? Vacations and such were luxuries that only the very rich could afford. Meaning that the peasant parents of a mage child can't just visit the tower on weekends even if they want to. And most don't want to because mages are shunned by society which, in most cases, include their parents.Jowan and Anders are such examples.

I believe the approximation of the Circle and the outside world is importantant but in practice, it wouldn't bear much results, anyway.

Anyway, so now you've got the kid in a circle. Okay, you get to sleep in a bed, and you've got a roof. But you can only go where the templars allow you to go, you have no privacy, and you can not leave, ever. It's kind of like a prison...

Some of that is blantantly untrue. Even in Kirkwall where the Knigth Commander had extablished herself as an authoritarian ruler, the templars couldn't search the tower after a group of Circle mages having revealed themselves as blood mages without the First Enchanter throwing a hissy fit. Mages have probrably more privacy than we do nowadays with cameras and satellites.
And while mages can't just go where they please without a templar escort; unless they have proven to be loyal such as Wynne or Ines; that is as much for the protection of the normal people as for the protection of mages. There are a lot of people who hate them and would kill them if given the opportunity.

Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions.

There are dozens of books in the library about how to protect one's mind against demons (see: Witch Hunt) and obviously, the Senior Enchanters are going to teach apprentices about it.
The Harrowing is a bit crude but it makes perfect logical sense. If mages can resist a demon in the worst possible conditions, it increases the likelihood of them resisting them in any other situation.

Then you get to be a full mage. Not much improvement. You still have no private life, and the templars can do whatever they want to do to you. If they want to rape you, they're free to do so. Because nobody will believe the word of a mage above that of a templar. And try to defend yourself and you're tranquil within the week.

Again, blantantly untrue. There are a great many number of laws protecting mages such as "no mage can be amde Tranquil after their Harrowin".
In all of Dragon Age lore and media, there are only two reported cases of a templar raping a mage and that was on the same Circle. And even in Kirkwall, Alrik and Karras attempted to cover their crimes meaning they obviously feared retribution if they were discovered.
There is no epidemia of templars taking liberties with mages anywhere beyond the imagination of pro-mages.

If the Chantry is threatened by something. Be it darkspawn, Qunari, or those nasty nasty Tevinters it's YOU who have to go and fight them. Not the templars who're supposed to protect you. No, "magic is meant to serve man" after all.

First, there are only two recorded instances of the Chantry using mages for combat and that was against the darkspawn and the qunari. If the mages are not willing to help Thedas in this situations, they deserve everything they get. In fact, one codex entry mentions that a great many number of mages helped Tevinter during the Exhalted Marches which is just another proof of how mages are not trustworthy.

If anyone tries to rebel, and the templars get tired of it. Guess what? The templars can kill everyone in your circle at will! You had no part of it? Too bad! You're a mage. Rights are tossed out the window as soon as the word applies to you.

Mages are an extremely valuable natural resource. No Grand Cleric in her right mind would approve an Annulment at a drop of a hat. That's like the president approving the burning of the oil reserves of his/her country.
Annulment are last resorts.

In addition comes all the wonderful things like being accussed of blood magic on a regular basis. Threats of that magic prison place. Endless religious sermons telling you you're the scum of the earth and so on.

Face it, the templars oppress mages.

The Templars provide a place where mages can live in community amongst their own people where they are provided with many privileges that the common peasantry of Thedas doesn't have acess to; such as a steady home and education; while keeping them safe from overzealous normal people and keeping non-mages safe from magic violence and free of magical tyranny.
All in all, a decent set up.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 juin 2013 - 06:30 .

[Assassino01]

[quote]

[quote]Assassino01 wrote...
Mages are feared in Thedas. Why? Because the primary source of education and moral guidance in the Andrastian nations have been spreading stories about how evil they are, and how easily they fall to wicked demons for about 9 centuries. It doesn't help that the only mages a peasant is likely to encounter is either headed out to fight war for the Chantry, an apostate on the run, or a frightened untrained child.[/quote]

Cultures do not form out of thin air. The reason Andrastianism preaches extreme caution when dealing with magic it's because it's a culture firmed by the descendants of people who labored over the tyranny of magic for over a thousand years and who had to fight to the death to be free.  Do you expect these people to be fond of magic. And it is not as if the Andrastian culture is the only one that recognizes the dangers of magic; the Qun do so as well.
Mages are feared primarely because Thedas has had numerous examples of how easily magic can be used to harm others..
[/quote]

Note how the elves don't practice the same extreme caution in regards to magic, even though they suffered under it even more so than humans. Magic isn't evil in itself, no more than a sword or a dagger. It is simply a tool. Punishing people for being born with an abillity is wrong.

Besides, the people in Thedas in 9:30 Dragon never lived under the yoke of Tevinter, so why would that play into things. I doubt most peasants know more about Tevinter than what the chant of light tells them.

Also, using the Qun to justify your view of magic... We've seen what the Qun is, a totalitarian ideology of idiocy.

People fear magic because it can make people more powerful than themselves. That is the primary reason anyone fear anything. The lies the Chantry spreads about mages hardly helps. Nor, I admit, does Tevinter.

[quote][quote]So when a mage child is discovered the Templars come and take himher away, and they're never allowed to see their family again (unless you're rich or a noble), and the family of the mage no doubt is shunned by their fellow villagers for having magic blood in their family as well (like the Amell's, and they were nobles, how do you suppose commoners are treated?).[/quote]
 Did you know that in medieval times people didn't travel much due the limitations in technology and quality of life? Vacations and such were luxuries that only the very rich could afford. Meaning that the peasant parents of a mage child can't just visit the tower on weekends even if they want to. And most don't want to because mages are shunned by society which, in most cases, include their parents.Jowan and Anders are such examples.

I believe the approximation of the Circle and the outside world is importantant but in practice, it wouldn't bear much results, anyway. [/quote]

I am aware that peasants back in the day hardly strayed from their villages for their entire lives. That however, does not justify forbidding the parents from seeing their mage child, or justify not letting the mage return once he or she has been sufficiently trained.

Also, most towers seem to be placed in heavily populated cities. So your argument looses some weight. A family in Kirkwall aren't so far away from the tower that the journey there would be difficult.

[quote][quote]Anyway, so now you've got the kid in a circle. Okay, you get to sleep in a bed, and you've got a roof. But you can only go where the templars allow you to go, you have no privacy, and you can not leave, ever. It's kind of like a prison...[/quote]
Some of that is blantantly untrue. Even in Kirkwall where the Knigth Commander had extablished herself as an authoritarian ruler, the templars couldn't search the tower after a group of Circle mages having revealed themselves as blood mages without the First Enchanter throwing a hissy fit. Mages have probrably more privacy than we do nowadays with cameras and satellites.
And while mages can't just go where they please without a templar escort; unless they have proven to be loyal such as Wynne or Ines; that is as much for the protection of the normal people as for the protection of mages. There are a lot of people who hate them and would kill them if given the opportunity. [/quote]

You mean that since the Knight Commander can't just break into ever mage's rooms and search through their limited things that means they've got any semblance of privacy? Hah! They've got privacy when alone in their cell. Not among other mages.
Cameras and satelites? Not even going to bother with that. I'm not arguing the trials of modern life. And satellites? Seriously...
The mages can't go anywhere. Periode. Unless you're an old, intoctorinated enchanter like Wynne, in the most liberal circle in Thedas you will likely never see the outside of the tower. Exceptions can be made of course, if you're needed to fight some foe of the chantry.

[quote]
[quote]Then, after about a decade or so of training in whatever the Chantry allows you to be taught you're thrown to the flames, almost literally. The Templars, having given you no warning about how to defend yourself, or training to resist, make you attempt to resist a f***ing pride demon. Unless they think you're too weak, then you get to have all your emotions removed and get to spend the rest of your merry life making enchantments for the Circle, best part, no wages for you tranquil! If you fail the harrowing you die, no exceptions. [/quote]
There are dozens of books in the library about how to protect one's mind against demons (see: Witch Hunt) and obviously, the Senior Enchanters are going to teach apprentices about it.
The Harrowing is a bit crude but it makes perfect logical sense. If mages can resist a demon in the worst possible conditions, it increases the likelihood of them resisting them in any other situation.

[/quote]


There might be books in the library. But that does not mean the mages recieve training. Reading something from a book, and being taught by an experienced mage how to resist are two different things.

The Harrowing makes no logical sense from the mage viewpoint. Since the mages recieve little training in resisting demons, then its almost the same as throwing an untrained mage into the fade. The circle claims it's supposed to train mages in fighting demons. But so far we've only seen it train its mages to fight much more wordly threats. As Cullen so eloquently put it "They're weapons".

From the Chantry viewpoint the Harrowing makes perfect sense. Its an oppertunity to get rid of the early rebles, it provides them with a steady flow of slaves *cough* I mean tranquil, and significantly reduces the mage population, making it easier for the templars to keep control.

[quote][quote]Then you get to be a full mage. Not much improvement. You still have no private life, and the templars can do whatever they want to do to you. If they want to rape you, they're free to do so. Because nobody will believe the word of a mage above that of a templar. And try to defend yourself and you're tranquil within the week.[/quote]
Again, blantantly untrue. There are a great many number of laws protecting mages such as "no mage can be amde Tranquil after their Harrowin".
In all of Dragon Age lore and media, there are only two reported cases of a templar raping a mage and that was on the same Circle. And even in Kirkwall, Alrik and Karras attempted to cover their crimes meaning they obviously feared retribution if they were discovered.
There is no epidemia of templars taking liberties with mages anywhere beyond the imagination of pro-mages.

[/quote]

You site one law meant to protect mages from becoming emotionless husks and call it "many"...

The tranquil law is there. True enough. But it doesn't mean anything. The Kirkwall circle broke it all the time, and the Grand Cleric, nor the first enchanter did or could do anything to stop it.

We don't see templars outright raping mages much. Sure. But we don't spend much time in the circles either. We know that Anders mentions that it happens (in the Ferelden circle). We know it happens in Kirkwall. We know the tranquil mages are beaten in Kirkwall without consequences. We know these things happen. Just because they aren't pushed into our faces constantly like the oh so evil mages doesn't mean they don't happen.

Also, Alrik hardly tried to cover his crimes. If you speak with the tranquil in the gallows in DA: 2 they imply pretty heavily what happens, and rather freely. Alrik was free to do pretty much as he pleased.

To deny that the Templars take liberties with the mages is willfull ignorance.

[quote]

[quote]
If the Chantry is threatened by something. Be it darkspawn, Qunari, or those nasty nasty Tevinters it's YOU who have to go and fight them. Not the templars who're supposed to protect you. No, "magic is meant to serve man" after all. [/quote]
First, there are only two recorded instances of the Chantry using mages for combat and that was against the darkspawn and the qunari. If the mages are not willing to help Thedas in this situations, they deserve everything they get. In fact, one codex entry mentions that a great many number of mages helped Tevinter during the Exhalted Marches which is just another proof of how mages are not trustworthy.

[/quote]

It isn't that mages shouldn't help Thedas. It's that they're forced to. The language to codex uses in regards to the instances where magic was employed to fight says a lot about how they're viewed.

And yes. Of course mages flee to Tevinter. It's the only nation that seems to respect them as people. Mages are't unlike other people. Saying mages are untrustworthy is the same as saying people aren't trustworthy.

Actually, the mages fleeing to Tevinter is the exact same as slaves fleeing Tevinter.


[quote]

[quote]If anyone tries to rebel, and the templars get tired of it. Guess what? The templars can kill everyone in your circle at will! You had no part of it? Too bad! You're a mage. Rights are tossed out the window as soon as the word applies to you.[/quote]
Mages are an extremely valuable natural resource. No Grand Cleric in her right mind would approve an Annulment at a drop of a hat. That's like the president approving the burning of the oil reserves of his/her country.
Annulment are last resorts.

[/quote]

The rite of annulment has, according to codex, been used 17 times in 700 years. Then three times within about 10 in the dragon age. For a grand total of about 20 annulments (if you annult the circle in Ferelden). I feel that is a very high number of times to execute every single mage in a circle for that time periode. Especially since no other culture made use of anything like it anytime previous.

The right of annulment seems to me to be invoked every time the Templars can't preform their duties. They're to protect the mages, but they've obviously forgotten this. So when they can't control them either, then it's better to kill them all.

Meridith's actions clearly show that the Knight Commanders can invoke the rite whenever they feel like it.

[quote]

[quote]In addition comes all the wonderful things like being accussed of blood magic on a regular basis. Threats of that magic prison place. Endless religious sermons telling you you're the scum of the earth and so on.

Face it, the templars oppress mages.[/quote]
The Templars provide a place where mages can live in community amongst their own people where they are provided with many privileges that the common peasantry of Thedas doesn't have acess to; such as a steady home and education; while keeping them safe from overzealous normal people and keeping non-mages safe from magic violence and free of magical tyranny.
All in all, a decent set up.

[/quote]

Having access to a place to sleep and education (the circle isn't a home), means nothing if you don't have freedom. The freedom to marry. To use your abilities. To come or go. The mages are hardly ever even let out to take a breath of fresh air. It's not right. And no amount of food can make it right. You also forget that the circle's wealth rely on the tranquil, who are unfortunate mages, now slaves to the Chantry. Nothing good about it.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Assassino01 wrote...
Note how the elves don't practice the same extreme caution in regards to magic, even though they suffered under it even more so than humans.[/quote]
That is because the leader of each and every elf clan is a mage who, obviously, it's not going to say "We're really, really dangerous, everyone". Rather, they will come up with things like "once, all elves were mages" to make sure they are viewed as the "ideal elf".

[quote]Magic isn't evil in itself, no more than a sword or a dagger. It is simply a tool. Punishing people for being born with an abillity is wrong.[/quote]
It's not a punishment. It's a precaution.
In any society, people have their freedoms limitated by laws so that we can co-exist, the old "your freedom ends when another's freedom begins". Do these laws apply only to those who have commited a crime? No, they apply to all simply because of the possiblity that we might commit a crime; because humans have a potential for destruction.
Given that the potential for destruction of mages greatly exceeds that of a normal person, it follows that the restriction placed upon them must also be stricter.

It is far more wrong that some are born with an unfair biological advantage over others.

[quote]Besides, the people in Thedas in 9:30 Dragon never lived under the yoke of Tevinter, so why would that play into things.[/quote]
Culture is shaped by Tevinter opression, culture shapes the people of 9:30.

[quote]Also, using the Qun to justify your view of magic... We've seen what the Qun is, a totalitarian ideology of idiocy.[/quote]
Using the Qun to show that people don't need to be Andrastians to fear magic.

[quote]People fear magic because it can make people more powerful than themselves. That is the primary reason anyone fear anything. [/quote]
...yes...
Are you going to claim six year old boys who are capable of destroying entire villages are not a good reason to fear magic?

[quote]The lies the Chantry spreads about mages hardly helps.[/quote]
And what lies would those be?


[quote]I am aware that peasants back in the day hardly strayed from their villages for their entire lives. That however, does not justify forbidding the parents from seeing their mage child, or justify not letting the mage return once he or she has been sufficiently trained.

Also, most towers seem to be placed in heavily populated cities. So your argument looses some weight. A family in Kirkwall aren't so far away from the tower that the journey there would be difficult.[/quote]
There are many reasons why no mage should ever be allowed outside of the tower. My point was how distance would limit contact between mages and their parents, anyway. Not just the rules.

[quote]
You mean that since the Knight Commander can't just break into ever mage's rooms and search through their limited things that means they've got any semblance of privacy? Hah! They've got privacy when alone in their cell. Not among other mages. [/quote]
So, what you are saying is that when mages are in their private accomodations, they have privacy but not when they interact with other mages in social areas?
That is pretty much how the outside world works too.

[quote]
The mages can't go anywhere. Periode. Unless you're an old, intoctorinated enchanter like Wynne, in the most liberal circle in Thedas you will likely never see the outside of the tower. Exceptions can be made of course, if you're needed to fight some foe of the chantry. [/quote]
First of all, Indocrination? Really? Wynne has more rights because she has earned the trust of the Chantry through hard work and dedication in assuring her magic is a negligible threat.

Second, again, blatantly untrue. In "Asunder", orlesian mages were allowed to visit the city and buy personal proprierty. We've also seen mages attend court, visiting Redcliff to save a possessed child, etc.
Evidence shows that, outside of a crysis, they are not as locked in the Circle as Pro-mages assume.

[quote]
There might be books in the library. But that does not mean the mages recieve training. Reading something from a book, and being taught by an experienced mage how to resist are two different things. [/quote]
There are senior mages in the Circle and even if one were to believe that the dastardly Chantry is out kill as many mages as possible through the Harrowing; which goes against their best interests; the Circle mages would do their beast to surreptitiously teach the mages anyway.

[quote]The Harrowing makes no logical sense from the mage viewpoint. Since the mages recieve little training in resisting demons, then its almost the same as throwing an untrained mage into the fade. The circle claims it's supposed to train mages in fighting demons. But so far we've only seen it train its mages to fight much more wordly threats. As Cullen so eloquently put it "They're weapons".[/quote]
Cullen did not mean they are "weapons of the Chantry" only that they are weapons.

And sure, the Harrowing is somewhat crude but it serves its purpose. It helps dinstiguish between mages who have a good chance at resisting demons and those who don't. The point is not to send untrained mages into the Fade; mages are trained, in fact; the point is to send mages who are caught unwares. Hence, why they don't tell the mages when it's going to happen.
If a mage can be rised during a random night, sent into the Fade and survive, chances are he'll be able to do during any other situation.

Also, when have we seen mages being trained to fight wordly threats"? We've see a mage being taught how to resist a fireball? Know who send those? Demons.

[quote]it provides them with a steady flow of slaves *cough* I mean tranquil,[/quote]
You know, all the procedure of items crafted by Tranquil go into mantaining the Circle. if anyone has a reason to wish to mantain the number of Tranquil would be the Circle.

[quote]and reduces the mage population, making it easier for the templars to keep control.[/quote]
That is true tough that I believe that is a good thing. 

[quote]
You site one law meant to protect mages from becoming emotionless husks and call it "many"...[/quote]
It's called an "example". I can give more. Mages can't be made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter; no one may enter the Phylactery room without the FE and the KC's approval, mages can join any fraternity they wish.

[quote]The tranquil law is there. True enough. But it doesn't mean anything. The Kirkwall circle broke it all the time, and the Grand Cleric, nor the first enchanter did or could do anything to stop it.[/quote]
The effectiveness of any law lies with the people who enforce it, that's true. But the same thing applies to the outside world, not just the Circle.

[quote]We don't see templars outright raping mages much. Sure. But we don't spend much time in the circles either. We know that Anders mentions that it happens (in the Ferelden circle). We know it happens in Kirkwall. We know the tranquil mages are beaten in Kirkwall without consequences. We know these things happen. Just because they aren't pushed into our faces constantly like the oh so evil mages doesn't mean they don't happen.[/quote]
The fact that something happens doesn't mean something happens often. We need some evidence if we wish to determine the frequency at which something happens. We can't just say "well, it's obviously happens a lot" if all we ever heard about templars raping mages was in two instances in the same Circle.
Also, Anders never mentions it happens in the Ferelden Circle. He says, and these are his exact words "That does happen but I've been lucky." He could just as easily mean. "I've been lucky I was sent to such a liberal Circle as Ferelden" Even those mages who joined Uldred didn't claim they were being beaten or raped. All they said was "The templars were always watching." That's hardly grounds for a rebellion.

[quote]Also, Alrik hardly tried to cover his crimes. If you speak with the tranquil in the gallows in DA: 2 they imply pretty heavily what happens, and rather freely. Alrik was free to do pretty much as he pleased.[/quote]
Game necessities. People are willing to tell Hawke. It doesn't mean they are saying it outloud in the courtyard anymore than the fact I can repeteadly click on them means they are willing to repeat the same thing dozens of times.

Also, we don't really know much about the situation. For instance, we know Alrik was was going to Tranquil and rape Elia but what if he put in his report "Apostate used blood magic."? That would still be covering his tracks.
Speakin of Ellia, did you know that if you send her into the Circle, she claims that most templars are glad Alrik is gone? Clearly, people like him are in the minority.

[quote]To deny that the Templars take liberties with the mages is willfull ignorance.[/quote]
And to claim it happens with frequency is a gross overexageration.
[quote]
It isn't that mages shouldn't help Thedas. It's that they're forced to. The language to codex uses in regards to the instances where magic was employed to fight says a lot about how they're viewed. [/quote]
Mages are not forced to do anything. They are asked for help and it is in their best interest to render it because it means they can exploit the goodwill after the war is over.

[quote]And yes. Of course mages flee to Tevinter. It's the only nation that seems to respect them as people.[/quote]
Actually, Tevinter doesn't just respect mages as people. It places them above everyone else with the right to do whatever they wish to non-mages.
It doesn't surprise me mages wish for these liberties but they should realize that tevinters are not above chaining their fellow mages. The truth is, tevinter lives the law of the fittest.

[quote]Mages are't unlike other people. [/quote]
Other than the fact they can kill you with their mind.

[quote]Saying mages are untrustworthy is the same as saying people aren't trustworthy. [/quote]
That is dependant upon many factor. Chief amonsgst them the possibility of retribution.

[quote]Actually, the mages fleeing to Tevinter is the exact same as slaves fleeing Tevinter. [/quote]
Other than the fact the Circle system is not slavery.
The most widely accepted defining characteristic of slavery is the process of dehumanizing the slave into an object. An object has no rights or freedoms; it's owner can do to the object what s/he wishes.
They're, basically, proprierty. Mages are not proprierty of the Chantry or Templars. They have rigths protecting them such as the right to physical integrity; mages can't be beaten or raped by Templars; and they have freedoms that must be respected such as the freedom of association; mages can join any fraternity they choose. This doesn't
always translate as it should but corruption exists in the legal and police systems of democratic countries and they're not hallmarks of slavery. They also can't be forced to perform labor. The Chantry or others can request help from a Circle; such as the Warden asking Irving to commit to fight against the Blight or to help deal with Connor; but the mages render the assistance only if they wish to do so. The profits of the sale of any objects produced by the Tanquils goes to the Circle, not the Chantry.
Hence, mages are not slaves.


[quote]
The rite of annulment has, according to codex, been used 17 times in 700 years. Then three times within about 10 in the dragon age. For a grand total of about 20 annulments (if you annult the circle in Ferelden). I feel that is a very high number of times to execute every single mage in a circle for that time periode. Especially since no other culture made use of anything like it anytime previous.[/quote]
Because previous cultures were dominated by mages.

[quote]The right of annulment seems to me to be invoked every time the Templars can't preform their duties. They're to protect the mages, but they've obviously forgotten this. So when they can't control them either, then it's better to kill them all. [/quote]
Rites are called when every mage in the Circle who is not a blood mage or abominations has been killed.

[quote]Meridith's actions clearly show that the Knight Commanders can invoke the rite whenever they feel like it.[/quote]
No, Grand Clerics can. The only reason Meredith was able to invoke the Right was because Anders killed her superior meant to keep her in check.
And again, mages = valuable resource. No sane Grand Cleric is in an hurry to burn their reserves of nuclear power.

[quote]Having access to a place to sleep and education (the circle isn't a home), means nothing if you don't have freedom. The freedom to marry. To use your abilities. To come or go. The mages are hardly ever even let out to take a breath of fresh air. It's not right. And no amount of food can make it right. You also forget that the circle's wealth rely on the tranquil, who are unfortunate mages, now slaves to the Chantry. Nothing good about it.
[/quote]
The only people in the world who care about freedom are those who have every other need supplied.
I dare say that if you were to ask people from third world countries; millions upon millions of them; who have nothing but their own waste to eat whether they wish to be free to starve or to be accepted into a prison where they will be provided with food, clothing, beds and an education, they would jump at the opportunity.
I mean, did you know that the orlesian mages lived in Drakon's former palace? They were, literally, sleeping where an emperor used to sleep while some "free" peasants don't have a place to stay.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 juin 2013 - 09:35 .

[Assassino01]

[quote]

[quote]Assassino01 wrote...
Note how the elves don't practice the same extreme caution in regards to magic, even though they suffered under it even more so than humans.[/quote]

That is because the leader of each and every elf clan is a mage who, obviously, it's not going to say "We're really, really dangerous, everyone". Rather, they will come up with things like "once, all elves were mages" to make sure they are viewed as the "ideal elf".

[/quote]

"Come up with"?. It seems pretty clear that there is truth to most of the Dalish's claims about their lifespans and magic.

Anyway, not here to discuss this. The fact that the Dalish seem to have more success than the Circle regarding their mages. Perhaps that is because their mages rarely feel the need to become abominations to gain the power to keep their freedom? Perhaps it's because they're actually trained to deal with the troubles they'll face.

I know you're going to bring up Merrill and blood magic here. So I'll just say that I find very little wrong with blood magic. It doesn't draw from the fade, it doesn't have to be taught by demons and it doesn't have to hurt anyone but yourself. It's a very usefull tool.

And Marethari was a fool if you're going to bring up that. Trusting a pride demon like that... Idiot.

[quote][quote]Magic isn't evil in itself, no more than a sword or a dagger. It is simply a tool. Punishing people for being born with an abillity is wrong.[/quote]
It's not a punishment. It's a precaution.
In any society, people have their freedoms limitated by laws so that we can co-exist, the old "your freedom ends when another's freedom begins". Do these laws apply only to those who have commited a crime? No, they apply to all simply because of the possiblity that we might commit a crime; because humans have a potential for destruction.
Given that the potential for destruction of mages greatly exceeds that of a normal person, it follows that the restriction placed upon them must also be stricter.

It is far more wrong that some are born with an unfair biological advantage over others.

[/quote]

It's prison. Call it a precaution if you wish. It does not change the realities of what happens in the Circle's. People have their liberty, and rights, and even humanity taken away. How you can truly defend that, I do not know.

And the danger mages poses is overrated. The Warden, Hawke, most of the companions, and ever sword wielding boss we meet were far more capable of destruction than most mages we encounter. Not to mention that many mages are too weak to light a candle. Even most abominations we meet are rather weak.

Being born with a biological advantage shouldn't be a crime. You most likely have a biological advantage over me, since my sight is rather bad. It doesn't mean I see it as unfair or wrong. Some people have advantages over others. It's the way things are.

[quote][quote]Besides, the people in Thedas in 9:30 Dragon never lived under the yoke of Tevinter, so why would that play into things.[/quote]
Culture is shaped by Tevinter opression, culture shapes the people of 9:30.

[/quote]

Culture is shaped more by religion than by the faded history of a fallen empire. The Chantry have far more influence on people's thinking than Tevinter does.

[quote][quote]Also, using the Qun to justify your view of magic... We've seen what the Qun is, a totalitarian ideology of idiocy.[/quote]
Using the Qun to show that people don't need to be Andrastians to fear magic.
[/quote]

Sure. But the Qun is such a foolish ideology that I won't take anything they believe in serious. They believe magic is contagious for FSM's sake.

[quote][quote]People fear magic because it can make people more powerful than themselves. That is the primary reason anyone fear anything. [/quote]
...yes...
Are you going to claim six year old boys who are capable of destroying entire villages are not a good reason to fear magic?

[/quote]

Sure. I never said the mages shouldn't be trained. I'm just saying the Circle needs to be reformed, and made secular. Give mages more freedom, and the myths about magic, and the Circle dispelled. If people didn't fear the Circle, and magic so much then maybe people would be more willing to send their children to training.

[quote][quote]The lies the Chantry spreads about mages hardly helps.[/quote]
And what lies would those be?

[/quote]

How about: "Mages aren't people", "Mages will always find a need to justify their need for power", "All blood mages are evil", "Any mage can be possessed at any time," "One blood mage could threaten the entire world," "One mage could burn down a city."

I have yet to see much truth too these for example.

[quote]

[quote]I am aware that peasants back in the day hardly strayed from their villages for their entire lives. That however, does not justify forbidding the parents from seeing their mage child, or justify not letting the mage return once he or she has been sufficiently trained.

Also, most towers seem to be placed in heavily populated cities. So your argument looses some weight. A family in Kirkwall aren't so far away from the tower that the journey there would be difficult.[/quote]
There are many reasons why no mage should ever be allowed outside of the tower. My point was how distance would limit contact between mages and their parents, anyway. Not just the rules.
[/quote]

Why should mages never be allowed outside the tower. If they're trained then they could benifit Thedas greatly. They could offer magic healing, or use their magic for many other usefull purposes. It would certainly improve the avrage person's view of magic.

[quote]

[quote]
You mean that since the Knight Commander can't just break into ever mage's rooms and search through their limited things that means they've got any semblance of privacy? Hah! They've got privacy when alone in their cell. Not among other mages. [/quote]
So, what you are saying is that when mages are in their private accomodations, they have privacy but not when they interact with other mages in social areas?
That is pretty much how the outside world works too.

[/quote]

I worded myself poorly perhaps. What I mean that as soon as the mages want some social contact their every conversation is listened to. Their letters to the outside are intercepted and such.

[quote]
[quote]
The mages can't go anywhere. Periode. Unless you're an old, intoctorinated enchanter like Wynne, in the most liberal circle in Thedas you will likely never see the outside of the tower. Exceptions can be made of course, if you're needed to fight some foe of the chantry. [/quote]
First of all, Indocrination? Really? Wynne has more rights because she has earned the trust of the Chantry through hard work and dedication in assuring her magic is a negligible threat.

Second, again, blatantly untrue. In "Asunder", orlesian mages were allowed to visit the city and buy personal proprierty. We've also seen mages attend court, visiting Redcliff to save a possessed child, etc.
Evidence shows that, outside of a crysis, they are not as locked in the Circle as Pro-mages assume.
[/quote]

Wynne has earned the trust of the Chantry because she follows their rules blindly, and preach their ideology to anyone who will listen. She certainly sprouts enough of it to the Warden in origins. You don't see many Libertarians running about.

I haven't read Asunder. So I cannot argue for or against that. I'll have to stick to what happens in the games until then.
The mages were allowed to go to Redcliff because THE WARDEN asked them to, after he saved both templars and mages. Also, they were let out to do a task.

[quote]
[quote]
There might be books in the library. But that does not mean the mages recieve training. Reading something from a book, and being taught by an experienced mage how to resist are two different things. [/quote]
There are senior mages in the Circle and even if one were to believe that the dastardly Chantry is out kill as many mages as possible through the Harrowing; which goes against their best interests; the Circle mages would do their beast to surreptitiously teach the mages anyway.

[quote]The Harrowing makes no logical sense from the mage viewpoint. Since the mages recieve little training in resisting demons, then its almost the same as throwing an untrained mage into the fade. The circle claims it's supposed to train mages in fighting demons. But so far we've only seen it train its mages to fight much more wordly threats. As Cullen so eloquently put it "They're weapons".[/quote]
Cullen did not mean they are "weapons of the Chantry" only that they are weapons.

And sure, the Harrowing is somewhat crude but it serves its purpose. It helps dinstiguish between mages who have a good chance at resisting demons and those who don't. The point is not to send untrained mages into the Fade; mages are trained, in fact; the point is to send mages who are caught unwares. Hence, why they don't tell the mages when it's going to happen.
If a mage can be rised during a random night, sent into the Fade and survive, chances are he'll be able to do during any other situation.

Also, when have we seen mages being trained to fight wordly threats"? We've see a mage being taught how to resist a fireball? Know who send those? Demons.

[/quote]

They're weapons. Under the control of the Chantry. Thus they are by definition "Weapons of the Chantry" from his viewpoint. Or else they're weapons loose in the masses that needs to be put down.

I'm not saying they need to say exactly what the Harrowing is going to entail. But giving mages training in how to resist, how to see through a demon's lies and how to best fight them should be mandatory. Research into demons should be top priority, and perhaps the circle ought to learn from the Dalish or Tevinter in regards to how to prepare the mages. Neither have harrowings, but both seem rather fine in regards to abominations.

Demons use fireballs when they're already in Thedas. If the templars did their job they shouldn't have to. Although it is usefull to know how to resist fireballs. Demons aren't going to possess you with a fireball.

[quote][quote]it provides them with a steady flow of slaves *cough* I mean tranquil,[/quote]
You know, all the procedure of items crafted by Tranquil go into mantaining the Circle. if anyone has a reason to wish to mantain the number of Tranquil would be the Circle.
[/quote]

The Circle is a Chantry institution. They're not an inderpendent organization. The Chantry earn their coin from the tranquil slaves, and the trade of lyrium.

[quote] [quote]and reduces the mage population, making it easier for the templars to keep control.[/quote]
That is true tough that I believe that is a good thing. 
[/quote]

And I believe it is a cruel and cowardly form of control. But at least we agree on one of the purposes of the harrowing.

[quote]
[quote]
You site one law meant to protect mages from becoming emotionless husks and call it "many"...[/quote]
It's called an "example". I can give more. Mages can't be made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter; no one may enter the Phylactery room without the FE and the KC's approval, mages can join any fraternity they wish.

[quote]The tranquil law is there. True enough. But it doesn't mean anything. The Kirkwall circle broke it all the time, and the Grand Cleric, nor the first enchanter did or could do anything to stop it.[/quote]
The effectiveness of any law lies with the people who enforce it, that's true. But the same thing applies to the outside world, not just the Circle.
[/quote]

Just because laws aren't followed outside the Circle doesn't mean they shouldn't be followed in the Circle. If a law is no longer de facto in effect it is hardly a law anyway.

Yes, there are a few laws to protect mages. But they're easily ignored. Why you mention the Phylactaries I don't understand. That's just one more form of control, and hardly supports your case, as it is blood magic.

Mages can join fraternities. But they cannot act upon their views, and they're only tolerated so that it is easier for templars to gauge the mood of the mages, and weed out rebels.

[quote][quote]We don't see templars outright raping mages much. Sure. But we don't spend much time in the circles either. We know that Anders mentions that it happens (in the Ferelden circle). We know it happens in Kirkwall. We know the tranquil mages are beaten in Kirkwall without consequences. We know these things happen. Just because they aren't pushed into our faces constantly like the oh so evil mages doesn't mean they don't happen.[/quote]
The fact that something happens doesn't mean something happens often. We need some evidence if we wish to determine the frequency at which something happens. We can't just say "well, it's obviously happens a lot" if all we ever heard about templars raping mages was in two instances in the same Circle.
Also, Anders never mentions it happens in the Ferelden Circle. He says, and these are his exact words "That does happen but I've been lucky." He could just as easily mean. "I've been lucky I was sent to such a liberal Circle as Ferelden" Even those mages who joined Uldred didn't claim they were being beaten or raped. All they said was "The templars were always watching." That's hardly grounds for a rebellion.
[/quote]

It happens often enough that the mages see it as a real enough problem, and a threat. That is too often for me. Actually, once is too often for my taste. And I don't remember Anders' exact word, but I believe he says something like: "the templars can just decide to take advantage of a defenseless mage, and yes that does happen. But I've been lucky. Certainly I don't get the feeling he's lucky he was placed in a liberal Circle. He certainly felt it rather oppressive to have escaped 7 time (and that btw shows how incompetent the templars are as a rule).

The mages fought for freedom from a religious organization that views them as little more than weapons to be used. Rebellions in the real world have been begun for much less.


[quote][quote]Also, Alrik hardly tried to cover his crimes. If you speak with the tranquil in the gallows in DA: 2 they imply pretty heavily what happens, and rather freely. Alrik was free to do pretty much as he pleased.[/quote]
Game necessities. People are willing to tell Hawke. It doesn't mean they are saying it outloud in the courtyard anymore than the fact I can repeteadly click on them means they are willing to repeat the same thing dozens of times.

Also, we don't really know much about the situation. For instance, we know Alrik was was going to Tranquil and rape Elia but what if he put in his report "Apostate used blood magic."? That would still be covering his tracks.
Speakin of Ellia, did you know that if you send her into the Circle, she claims that most templars are glad Alrik is gone? Clearly, people like him are in the minority.
[/quote]

If people are willing to tell Hawke, the random noble from hightown, that the templar Alrik is raping them, then I think it's pretty well known, and accepted.

Anyway. If Alrik could make mages tranquil, and just say "blood magic", and nobody would ask questions, I call into question the abilities, and oversight in the templar order.

Alrik was obviously a creepy as**ole. Of course people were glad to see him go. Doesn't mean they don't commit similar crimes themselves.

[quote][quote]To deny that the Templars take liberties with the mages is willfull ignorance.[/quote]
And to claim it happens with frequency is a gross overexageration.

[/quote]

Perhaps. But the fact is, it does happen. And something should be done to stop it, at the very least.

[quote]
[quote]
It isn't that mages shouldn't help Thedas. It's that they're forced to. The language to codex uses in regards to the instances where magic was employed to fight says a lot about how they're viewed. [/quote]
Mages are not forced to do anything. They are asked for help and it is in their best interest to render it because it means they can exploit the goodwill after the war is over.
[/quote]

Mages are forced to do a lot of things. Among them to stay in a tower their entire lives.

Now what does the codex say about the mages being used to fight...

"The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi.
For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred
for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and
balls of fire.
"
Doesn't sound much like the Circle was asked. "The Chantry responded with".

No doubt it was to the mages' best intrest to fight the Qunari. But it should be their choice.

[quote][quote]And yes. Of course mages flee to Tevinter. It's the only nation that seems to respect them as people.[/quote]
Actually, Tevinter doesn't just respect mages as people. It places them above everyone else with the right to do whatever they wish to non-mages.
It doesn't surprise me mages wish for these liberties but they should realize that tevinters are not above chaining their fellow mages. The truth is, tevinter lives the law of the fittest.
[/quote]

No. Magisters can do what they want to their subjects. If you're just a regular mage in Tevinter, you're a free citizen. But little more.

[quote] [quote]Mages are't unlike other people. [/quote]
Other than the fact they can kill you with their mind.

[/quote]

Yep. But you can kill people with most everything if you try.

[quote] [quote]Saying mages are untrustworthy is the same as saying people aren't trustworthy. [/quote]
That is dependant upon many factor. Chief amonsgst them the possibility of retribution.
[/quote]

Anyone with a knife is capable of retibution. A fireball is just more flashy.

[quote][quote]Actually, the mages fleeing to Tevinter is the exact same as slaves fleeing Tevinter. [/quote]
Other than the fact the Circle system is not slavery.
The most widely accepted defining characteristic of slavery is the process of dehumanizing the slave into an object. An object has no rights or freedoms; it's owner can do to the object what s/he wishes.
They're, basically, proprierty. Mages are not proprierty of the Chantry or Templars. They have rigths protecting them such as the right to physical integrity; mages can't be beaten or raped by Templars; and they have freedoms that must be respected such as the freedom of association; mages can join any fraternity they choose. This doesn't
always translate as it should but corruption exists in the legal and police systems of democratic countries and they're not hallmarks of slavery. They also can't be forced to perform labor. The Chantry or others can request help from a Circle; such as the Warden asking Irving to commit to fight against the Blight or to help deal with Connor; but the mages render the assistance only if they wish to do so. The profits of the sale of any objects produced by the Tanquils goes to the Circle, not the Chantry.
Hence, mages are not slaves.
[/quote]

Dehumanizing people into objects: Check. (mages are weapons, not people and such. Thanks Cullen).
No freedoms to do as they wish: Check.
Property: Check. They are. The Chantry just can't say so. The tranquil are property beyond doubt.
Slaves can have rights. As long as they're still owned by someone else they would still be slaves. Mages can very much be beaten by templars btw. And little seems to prevent rape. Mages can join a fraternity. But fraternities don't have any power at all.
Mages don't perform forced labour. But the tranquil do. The chantry can make the mages fight their wars. In Ferelden the circle is free to preform some semi-inderpendent work. Sure. But that's the most liberal circle in Thedas.
The profits go to the Circle, which is part of the Chantry.
Mages are slaves, or if you prefer, serfs

[quote]
[quote]
The rite of annulment has, according to codex, been used 17 times in 700 years. Then three times within about 10 in the dragon age. For a grand total of about 20 annulments (if you annult the circle in Ferelden). I feel that is a very high number of times to execute every single mage in a circle for that time periode. Especially since no other culture made use of anything like it anytime previous.[/quote]
Because previous cultures were dominated by mages.
[/quote]

The world between Andraste and the beginning of the rite of annulment didn't require the rite either. The elves of the Dales had no need for it, and we don't know if they were a mageocracy. Haven didn't have it. Even the Qunari doesn't seem to have it.

[quote][quote]The right of annulment seems to me to be invoked every time the Templars can't preform their duties. They're to protect the mages, but they've obviously forgotten this. So when they can't control them either, then it's better to kill them all. [/quote]
Rites are called when every mage in the Circle who is not a blood mage or abominations has been killed.
[/quote]

This is obviously untrue. The Ferelden Circle had enough surviving mages when the rite was invoked that they could provide an army at the battle of Denerim. The entire Circle of Kirkwall was annuled because of the actions of one mage. The Dairsmuid Circle was annuled because they didn't quite follow the rules if I understand it correctly. We have seen no examples of the situation you describe.

[quote]
[quote]Meridith's actions clearly show that the Knight Commanders can invoke the rite whenever they feel like it.[/quote]
No, Grand Clerics can. The only reason Meredith was able to invoke the Right was because Anders killed her superior meant to keep her in check.
And again, mages = valuable resource. No sane Grand Cleric is in an hurry to burn their reserves of nuclear power.
[/quote]

There must be a chain of command her. Why didn't she send her request to the Divine for example. Or the grand cleric of Starkhaven. The Knight commander is obviously free to ignore Chantry laws.

[quote]
[quote]Having access to a place to sleep and education (the circle isn't a home), means nothing if you don't have freedom. The freedom to marry. To use your abilities. To come or go. The mages are hardly ever even let out to take a breath of fresh air. It's not right. And no amount of food can make it right. You also forget that the circle's wealth rely on the tranquil, who are unfortunate mages, now slaves to the Chantry. Nothing good about it.
[/quote]
The only people in the world who care about freedom are those who have every other need supplied.
I dare say that if you were to ask people from third world countries; millions upon millions of them; who have nothing but their own waste to eat whether they wish to be free to starve or to be accepted into a prison where they will be provided with food, clothing, beds and an education, they would jump at the opportunity.
I mean, did you know that the orlesian mages lived in Drakon's former palace? They were, literally, sleeping where an emperor used to sleep while some "free" peasants don't have a place to stay.
[/quote]

But we aren't arguing about the poor people of Earth or Thedas. We're arguing about the plight of the mages. It's useless to excuse the Circle system with "some people have it much worse". The mages have obviously been wronged. Just because some people have been wronged even more doesn't make that right.
And just because they're in a former palace doesn't mean it's a good life. It just means it used to be a palace before it became a prison.