42 réponses à ce sujet

[Chris724]

 What do you usually do in the Mage Origin in regards to Jowan and Lily? Does your character try to help him escape, or report him to Irving because it is the "right thing to do"? What did you do on your first playthrough? I can never make up my mind on which decision is best for roleplay reasons, even if they both lead to the same outcome.

[Exile Isan]

I usually help Jowan, mainly because I like being the one that's betrayed. You can ask Jowan point blank if he is a blood mage and he lies to you about it, so you help him and he betrays your trust. Besides I love this dialog:

Amell: "I helped you once in the name of friendship..."
Jowan: "And I betrayed you."

[Bhryaen]

My first playthrough I helped him because I didn't recognize I could actually run back to Irving. Then I explored that path. It's not exactly the same outcome with either path since you get different dialog with Jowan when you meet him again later depending on how you play it.

Now I usually play a wildish mage who sees no reason to snitch to the authorities but then resents Jowan for leaving behind the one who helped him get his phylactery when he flees the Tower.

[Fuggyt]

Chris724 wrote...

 What do you usually do in the Mage Origin in regards to Jowan and Lily? Does your character try to help him escape, or report him to Irving because it is the "right thing to do"? What did you do on your first playthrough? I can never make up my mind on which decision is best for roleplay reasons, even if they both lead to the same outcome.

I've played a mage several times and I've only ratted out Jowan to Irving once, just to see what happened.  For roleplay reasons, I always go back to how it struck me my first playthrough.  Duncan's voiceover intro to your origin makes it clear the Circle is as much Alcatraz as Hogwarts and the Harrowing is calculated to generate as much righteous indignation as fear.  So I was predisposed to see Irving (and, later, Wynn) as a collaborator who, no matter how nicey-nice everybody was about it, only enjoyed his position because the Templars held a knife to my throat.  Then, too, I had no reason to mistrust Jowan when I first met him; he only wanted to flee the Circle as much as I did and, unlike me, he at least had a plan to get out, and perhaps more dire need with Tranquility in the offing.  So although it's always good to be a little perverse in your role playing choices, I think the storyline more naturally supports helping Jowan escape.   

[Wulfram]

I "betray" him. Or rather I try to stay out of it, and in the end have no choice but to work for Irving.

His plan seems remarkably lacking in detail as to how I'm not going to end up in deep excrement for my part in this. Him and priestess lady can make a run for it, but my Phylactery is on file so I'd have to stay and face the music.

What annoys me a lot is the railroading if you don't agree to his plan. You're made to reveal it to Irving, though to be fair the consequences of not doing so would likely be dire. And you can't tell Jowan that Irving knows, and maybe at least try to get the priestess to stay out of it.

[emeraldtrader]

one of my mage betrays Jowen, then she goes on to become a blood mage.

[Bhryaen]

Yeah, Wulfram is right: Jowan's plan is just plain awful- no good roleplay reason to pursue it as a sound plan at all unless your character is a dunce or has a death wish or something. There is a vague idea about getting through a door to get at the phylactery, but that's it- no idea what might be after the door, whether there's an alarm, whether it's trapped- and not a single mention of how to escape the Tower past the guards and the huge front door (which requires multiple guards to open, IIRC). There isn't even a "jump out the window" proviso- no exit strategy whatsoever. But we say, "Sure, let's do this!" It's like a bank robbery orchestrated by Dumb and Dumber:

"So what do you think? We rob a bank. You in?"
"Sure, I guess. So what's the plan?"
"Right. We drive up, see, go in, and then get to the teller window. How's that?"
"Sounds... ok. Then what do we do?"
"Um... oh, and we get the money. Should there be more?"
"Yeah, the whole 'stick 'em up' and getting away part."
"Oh... well, that's pretty much a given, isn't it?"
"No... I think that's supposed to be planned out too."
"I mean, we get in, don't we? Pretty much just works by itself after that."
"Works by itself? You know we can get tranquilized or killed for this, right?"
"Sure, but Lily and you're my friend and I'm desperate and all that."
"Good enough for me!"

I hardly ever play a mage in DAO that isn't chaotic neutral and a bit crazed, so regardless the plan ends up sounding good enough. Mayhem at last!

[wiccame]

I am a bit of a sucker, his..'I trust her with my life' line, gets to me every time. he's my big brother, of course I have to help him.
That being said, for rp purposes I always go to Irving and find out that him being made tranquil is true, and the conversation with him (Irving) at that point makes me want to help him all the more.

[frostajulie]

wiccame wrote...

I am a bit of a sucker, his..'I trust her with my life' line, gets to me every time. he's my big brother, of course I have to help him.
That being said, for rp purposes I always go to Irving and find out that him being made tranquil is true, and the conversation with him (Irving) at that point makes me want to help him all the more.

this is how I prefer to do it too

[Aleya]

Depends on the character. My blood mage whose only goal was to escape the Tower (without being hunted by Templars for the rest of her life) jumped at the chance to curry favor with Irving. My goody two-shoes healer went to Irving because she was smart enough to figure out that he probably already knew what was going on and trusted his guidance. My somewhat reckless battlemage went along with the plan for a chance to escape and possibly enlist Jowan's help to destroy her own phylactery down the road.

No, none of my mages ever helped Jowan out of friendship. That's because I personally find him extremely annoying and his plan unbelievably dumb.

[mousestalker]

At the risk of starting a flame war, and I do respect people who hold a differing opinion, I find Jowan to be the second most annoying character in DAO. Cammen is number one, of course. A lot of the annoyance for Jowan comes from the railroad plot, but his mannerisms get on my nerves as well.

As for helping him, I've done that more than once. Most of my mages are not tattletales and Jowan would know that, unless he really is a total Tower pariah and my mage is the only one that will speak with him.

[Corker]

mousestalker wrote...
unless he really is a total Tower pariah and my mage is the only one that will speak with him.

This is the only way I can justify him confiding in my Amell.  She practically carries a sign that says, "Do not trust me."  Naturally, she narcs on him.  Oh, she loathes the Tower and life therein, but until she sees a way out for herself, she's going to make sure she's as high up on the heap as she can be.

My Surana helped him, though.  He let his companions push him around for most of the game.

[Fuggyt]

Bhryaen wrote...

Yeah, Wulfram is right: Jowan's plan is just plain awful- no good roleplay reason to pursue it as a sound plan at all unless your character is a dunce or has a death wish or something. There is a vague idea about getting through a door to get at the phylactery, but that's it- no idea what might be after the door, whether there's an alarm, whether it's trapped- and not a single mention of how to escape the Tower past the guards and the huge front door (which requires multiple guards to open, IIRC). There isn't even a "jump out the window" proviso- no exit strategy whatsoever.

I always figured that was going to be Lily's job.  She's a novice so presumably she can come and go from the Tower, and she's going to smuggle us out with the washerwomen.  Besides, I also always figured it wasn't that hard to get out of a Circle physically.  Sure, there are guards around, but it's not exactly maximum security.  And why should it be?  They have the phylacteries.  They know you can't hide so why should they fret if you run?  Jowan manages to burst free, past doors and guards and Lake Calenhad and all, in a matter of mere moments.  More realistically, Anders escapes seven times but could never get away, which is why his enemies use his phylactery as bait to trap him.  Getting out of mage jail is a breeze, staying out of mage jail is a mofo.

From that point of view, Jowan's plan, desperate though it may be, makes a lot more sense.  Other than that, I agree with the rest of the posters.  Jowan's been a whining loser from birth and it's a pleasure to watch Arl Eamon's guards drag him to the block.

Modifié par Fuggyt, 13 juin 2013 - 05:44 .

[Jedimaster88]

Fuggyt wrote...

From that point of view, Jowan's plan, desperate though it may be, makes a lot more sense.  Other than that, I agree with the rest of the posters.  Jowan's been a whining loser from birth and it's a pleasure to watch Arl Eamon's guards drag him to the block.

Well not all people are fierce lions that achieve greatness and face dangerous situations with a roar.

[mousestalker]

Corker wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
unless he really is a total Tower pariah and my mage is the only one that will speak with him.

This is the only way I can justify him confiding in my Amell.  She practically carries a sign that says, "Do not trust me."  Naturally, she narcs on him.  Oh, she loathes the Tower and life therein, but until she sees a way out for herself, she's going to make sure she's as high up on the heap as she can be.

My Surana helped him, though.  He let his companions push him around for most of the game.

The scary thing is that any mage who knew Odessa ought to know not to confide in her. But the writers needed the plot to run on rails, so poor Jowan tells most, but not all.

[Fuggyt]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

From that point of view, Jowan's plan, desperate though it may be, makes a lot more sense.  Other than that, I agree with the rest of the posters.  Jowan's been a whining loser from birth and it's a pleasure to watch Arl Eamon's guards drag him to the block.

Well not all people are fierce lions that achieve greatness and face dangerous situations with a roar.

Neither are all people treacherous weasels that practice blood magic and accept commissions as poisoners.

Modifié par Fuggyt, 13 juin 2013 - 06:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

From that point of view, Jowan's plan, desperate though it may be, makes a lot more sense.  Other than that, I agree with the rest of the posters.  Jowan's been a whining loser from birth and it's a pleasure to watch Arl Eamon's guards drag him to the block.

Well not all people are fierce lions that achieve greatness and face dangerous situations with a roar.

Neither are all people treacherous weasels that practice blood magic and accept commissions as poisoners.

I'd be suprised if Loghain gave him the option to refuse.

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

From that point of view, Jowan's plan, desperate though it may be, makes a lot more sense.  Other than that, I agree with the rest of the posters.  Jowan's been a whining loser from birth and it's a pleasure to watch Arl Eamon's guards drag him to the block.

Well not all people are fierce lions that achieve greatness and face dangerous situations with a roar.

Neither are all people treacherous weasels that practice blood magic and accept commissions as poisoners.

I'd be suprised if Loghain gave him the option to refuse.

Of course he had an option.  He had the same option to exercise his personal responsibility and accountability everybody else has.  He had the choice to live free or die and he chose neither.  Had Loghain threatened his life and met defiance, it wouldn't have made any difference to Jowan.  He still would have been just as dead.  The only difference would've been that Eamon would've been around to thwart Loghain's plans while they were still hatching (which is why Loghain sent Jowain to Redcliffe in the first place).  And, oh yeah, Connor wouldn't have swapped his soul to a Desire Demon, Eamon wouldn't have lingered in a grotesque magically-induced coma for months, and the garrison at Redcliffe Castle wouldn't have enjoyed the diversions of violent death and putrescent zombiedom. 

Yeah, Jowan's the victim here.  Loghain glowered at him menacingly and what else could he possibly have done?  Once Loghain set him on the road, he couldn't possibly have gone to Redcliffe and spilled the beans to the Arl, could he?  "Your Grace, although I am an apostate and a blood mage and I know you'll hand me over to the Templars, I am still a Fereldan and I have come to tell you of a plot against not only your life but the country we love."  Or turned aside and gone to grass until it all blew over?  "When's the next boat for Llomerryn?" Or simply used his blood magery to mind-control Loghain in the first place?  "You don't need to poison Eamon...these aren't the droids you're looking for."

Poor, poor Jowan.  The reason he went along was not because Loghain threatened to kill him.  It's that Loghain threatened to turn him in, and he knew that meant Aeonar, where at least he could've been near Lily again.  But his comfort meant more to him than his integrity (atrophied), his decency (decayed), or his morals (stolen), and so all those people just had to die, sort of.  But of course, being Jowan, everything he does is half-assed, and you have to kill all the people he murdered all over again.

If Jowan can be coerced by mere intimidation, then, he's not a treacherous weasel.  He's a spineless sack of nug spit. 

However, as I said, you have no real reason to mistrust him when you first meet him.  He lies to you as readily as he does to Lily and everybody else, and by the time you find out what his character really is it's too late.  Of course, you won't be surprised later on to find him in that dungeon up to his eyebrows in the rising sewage of his own folly. 

[Bhryaen]

@FuggyT

I believe the Towers are fairly locked up tight to hold in the mages and whatever abominations the mages might become (and declaredly to hold out mage-hating vigilantes)- which obviously comes in handy due to the Broken Circle. If you talk to the guards at the front door in the Mage Origin they tell you that the only way out of the Tower is through either one of the very high-up windows (hm, and demons never got out that way?)- which would mean certain death- or the front door, adding that the front door requires 2 or maybe 4 Templars to open it. You can snarkily probe them for that answer, and they'll snarkily provide it. I may be remembering incorrectly though. No idea how Anders manages it so many times...

And then there's the lake, as you mentioned. I never heard of any secret passage from the Tower to the Calendhad docks like Bann Teagan's impossible passage from inside that windmill high on the cliff ledge of Redcliffe Village, down the height of the ledge, under the lake (*snort*), back up another high ledge, and finally into the Redcliffe Castle Dungeon.

Anyway it's for that reason that I find it hard to see how Jowan manages to escape, and even more ridiculous that it's not even discussed beforehand. "Just get me the Rod of Fire and shut up already! We'll improvise!" Then again he somehow has enough power to blast down Greagoir, Irving, and others in a single blood magic blow, so maybe he just mind-controlled the Templars to do their special Templar dance to open the front door. But still...

And what's with all this Jowan hate? He's such a friendly little conniving whiner, definitely a fun acquaintence to keep insulting since he keeps coming back for more regardless.

GW: "Hiya, snivelling bastard!"
Jowan: "You totally have no respect for me. Let me tell you my deepest fears."
GW: "Hahaha! Hope you get tranquiled!"
Jowan: "That hurts me to my core. Now let me tell you about my girlfriend."
GW: "Poor lady. You know that if a woman likes you due to using blood magic on her it doesn't count, right?"
Jowan: "Ha ha. Very funny. So now let me tell you all about my secret plans that you can't tell anyone or it will ruin me. Promise not to tell on me?"
GW: "Uh huh. Cross my heart and hope you die. Lay it on me!"
Jowan: "Thank you, friend. You're the best!"

But if you let him go from Redcliffe he does go do good deeds for folks- or tries- not to mention helping with Connor- plus he's kind enough to be volunteered to take all the blows for you in the basement fights. Ah, well, anyway he's grown on me. And how can anyone hate hapless Cammen with those cuddwy cheeks and that boyish charm? Pride of the Dalish he is! That's a kiss to remember forever and ever...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'd be suprised if Loghain gave him the option to refuse.

If Jowan can be coerced by mere intimidation, then, he's not a treacherous weasel.  He's a spineless sack of nug spit.

Well not all people are fierce lions that achieve greatness and face dangerous situations with a roar. And it's not entirely fair to expect them all to be.

However, as I said, you have no real reason to mistrust him when you first meet him.  He lies to you as readily as he does to Lily and everybody else, and by the time you find out what his character really is it's too late.  Of course, you won't be surprised later on to find him in that dungeon up to his eyebrows in the rising sewage of his own folly. 

I still don't think he's exactly treacherous. He's kind of clueless, and until after he cools his heels in that dungeon he's kind of a coward, but if he hadn't been magical, and thus in a position where his idiocy and cowardice had the potential to screw up countless lives (including his own, of course) he'd have been alright. It's not like he comes off as a bad person, apart from those two flaws.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2013 - 08:33 .

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


I still don't think he's exactly treacherous. He's kind of clueless, and until after he cools his heels in that dungeon he's kind of a coward, but if he hadn't been magical, and thus in a position where his idiocy and cowardice had the potential to screw up countless lives (including his own, of course) he'd have been alright. It's not like he comes off as a bad person, apart from those two flaws.

Right, because people who are stupid and cowardly never cause catastrophes for themselves and others unless they have magical powers, so thank the Maker that never happens in our world.

"Jowan...great guy...kind of chickenspit but other than that, a great guy...not too bright, either, but other than that, a great guy...lies like a cheap rug but other than that, a great guy...blood mage, too, but, hey, nobody's perfect, right?  Other than that..."

Modifié par Fuggyt, 13 juin 2013 - 08:52 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


I still don't think he's exactly treacherous. He's kind of clueless, and until after he cools his heels in that dungeon he's kind of a coward, but if he hadn't been magical, and thus in a position where his idiocy and cowardice had the potential to screw up countless lives (including his own, of course) he'd have been alright. It's not like he comes off as a bad person, apart from those two flaws.

Right, because people who are stupid and cowardly never cause catastrophes for themselves and others unless they have magical powers, so thank the Maker that never happens in our world.

"Jowan...great guy...kind of chickenspit but other than that, a great guy...not too bright, either, but other than that, a great guy...lies like a cheap rug but other than that, a great guy...blood mage, too, but, hey, nobody's perfect, right?  Other than that..."

He became a blood mage because he was a coward, and thought he needed the power to survive a Harrowing non-mages don't go through. He lied about it because he was a coward, and thought he was being set up for Tranquility (which he was too cowardly to go through) due to his previous decision. So, if he was just an ordinary peasant (or even a noble with the power to send others to do his fighting) his cowardice would have mattered a whole lot less, and the common decency that shines through after his spell in the dungeon could have taken over.

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


He became a blood mage because he was a coward, and thought he needed the power to survive a Harrowing non-mages don't go through. He lied about it because he was a coward, and thought he was being set up for Tranquility (which he was too cowardly to go through) due to his previous decision. So, if he was just an ordinary peasant (or even a noble with the power to send others to do his fighting) his cowardice would have mattered a whole lot less, and the common decency that shines through after his spell in the dungeon could have taken over.

Took it long enough.  His decency wasn't so common until he got busted, and I understand that's not unusual at parole hearings.  Let's also bear in mind it wasn't his magic itself that bollixed things up.  Sure, the fact that he was an apostate mage got him next to Connor, and therefore the Arl, in the first place, but the scheme relied on good old-fashioned poison, not magic.  Anybody Loghain managed to infiltrate could've have done as much, like, say, an ordinary peasant carrying in the soup from the kitchen. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


He became a blood mage because he was a coward, and thought he needed the power to survive a Harrowing non-mages don't go through. He lied about it because he was a coward, and thought he was being set up for Tranquility (which he was too cowardly to go through) due to his previous decision. So, if he was just an ordinary peasant (or even a noble with the power to send others to do his fighting) his cowardice would have mattered a whole lot less, and the common decency that shines through after his spell in the dungeon could have taken over.

Took it long enough.  His decency wasn't so common until he got busted, and I understand that's not unusual at parole hearings.  Let's also bear in mind it wasn't his magic itself that bollixed things up.  Sure, the fact that he was an apostate mage got him next to Connor, and therefore the Arl, in the first place, but the scheme relied on good old-fashioned poison, not magic.  Anybody Loghain managed to infiltrate could've have done as much, like, say, an ordinary peasant carrying in the soup from the kitchen. 

My main point, which you've managed to miss completely, is that Jowan was ultimately only in that position due to his mage status. That is why Loghain found him. If he'd just been some simple farmer or city laborer, maybe even a noble, he would never have been introduced to Loghain (or at least, not under those circumstances), or have been able to turn to blood magic. Nor do cowardice and mild stupidity really hurt much, if you're just an ordinary citizen.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2013 - 11:31 .

[sylvanaerie]

I've done both, with both Surana and Amells (multiple plays). I prefer helping him for several reasons.

1) Tranquility is a wretched fate. He loves Lily, doesn't want to lose that. And what can I say, I'm a sucker for love. Knowing what's coming, it makes conversations with him and Lily a lot more poignant. You can see hints of how they wouldn't have worked out. She's a product of the chantry's teachings, and he is fascinated by the forbidden magic objects in the basement. He will no more be able to give up magic than he would be able to stop breathing. It's also a strong clue that he is doing forbidden magics if you look hard enough. And she won't accept him for who he really is.

2) He's the Warden's only friend in the tower. Granted, he's a selfish bastard who can't see beyond his own wants and desires, but that's immaturity I think. A lot of the mages aren't really given much opportunity to grow up since the chantry insists on treating them like exploding children.

3) My Amell hated the tower, but I did play her once as a ruthless **** who turned him in to score brownie points with Irving. Joke was on her when Irving gave her to Duncan. My Surana also hated the tower, but felt mages should be somewhere safe to learn their abilities. And she was too softhearted to let Jowan be tranquiled.

4) Duncan seems to have more respect for the warden who helps Jowan vs turning him over to Irving, and Lily and Jowan aren't angry they were betrayed. It just has a whole different feel to be the one betrayed. The scene in Redcliffe is different too depending on what choices you made and I just like the one where I was trying to be a good friend rather than a snitch. Though I did go to Irving once with the mentality of trying to help Jowan and stop him from going Apostate before someone got hurt.

Usually I pick the "Let's go back" or "This isn't a good idea" options of dialogue to RP out my mage warden being reluctant to be going along with the whole thing in the first place. Amell would rather not be bothered. Surana would rather be anywhere but in the forbidden bowels of the Tower.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 13 juin 2013 - 11:45 .