42 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Chris724 wrote...

What do you usually do in the Mage Origin in regards to Jowan and Lily? Does your character try to help him escape, or report him to Irving because it is the "right thing to do"? What did you do on your first playthrough? I can never make up my mind on which decision is best for roleplay reasons, even if they both lead to the same outcome.

My Surana protagonist helped Jowan, asked Irving to intercede on Jowan's behalf but never betrayed him to the First Enchanter, then called out Irving and Greagoir during the confrontation, and told Greagoir that he didn't regret his decision to help his friend. My character also let him go later on during the storyline.

[Corker]

sylvanaerie wrote...

... insists on treating them like exploding children.

+1 Internets!   

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


He became a blood mage because he was a coward, and thought he needed the power to survive a Harrowing non-mages don't go through. He lied about it because he was a coward, and thought he was being set up for Tranquility (which he was too cowardly to go through) due to his previous decision. So, if he was just an ordinary peasant (or even a noble with the power to send others to do his fighting) his cowardice would have mattered a whole lot less, and the common decency that shines through after his spell in the dungeon could have taken over.

Took it long enough.  His decency wasn't so common until he got busted, and I understand that's not unusual at parole hearings.  Let's also bear in mind it wasn't his magic itself that bollixed things up.  Sure, the fact that he was an apostate mage got him next to Connor, and therefore the Arl, in the first place, but the scheme relied on good old-fashioned poison, not magic.  Anybody Loghain managed to infiltrate could've have done as much, like, say, an ordinary peasant carrying in the soup from the kitchen. 

My main point, which you've managed to miss completely, is that Jowan was ultimately only in that position due to his mage status. That is why Loghain found him. If he'd just been some simple farmer or city laborer, maybe even a noble, he would never have been introduced to Loghain (or at least, not under those circumstances), or have been able to turn to blood magic. Nor do cowardice and mild stupidity really hurt much, if you're just an ordinary citizen.

I didn't miss your point, I dis-missed it.  Or, rather, I already addressed it.  The only reason Jowan's magic was relevant was because Isolde needed an apostate to tutor Connor on the sly.  If Connor had shown musical aptitude instead, Loghain would've handed the arsenic to the piano teacher.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fuggyt wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...
Took it long enough.  His decency wasn't so common until he got busted, and I understand that's not unusual at parole hearings.  Let's also bear in mind it wasn't his magic itself that bollixed things up.  Sure, the fact that he was an apostate mage got him next to Connor, and therefore the Arl, in the first place, but the scheme relied on good old-fashioned poison, not magic.  Anybody Loghain managed to infiltrate could've have done as much, like, say, an ordinary peasant carrying in the soup from the kitchen.  

My main point, which you've managed to miss completely, is that Jowan was ultimately only in that position due to his mage status. That is why Loghain found him. If he'd just been some simple farmer or city laborer, maybe even a noble, he would never have been introduced to Loghain (or at least, not under those circumstances), or have been able to turn to blood magic. Nor do cowardice and mild stupidity really hurt much, if you're just an ordinary citizen.

I didn't miss your point, I dis-missed it.  Or, rather, I already addressed it.  The only reason Jowan's magic was relevant was because Isolde needed an apostate to tutor Connor on the sly.  If Connor had shown musical aptitude instead, Loghain would've handed the arsenic to the piano teacher.

I think you missed why I addressed this, possibly on purpose; the only reason he had Jowan in particular over a barrel was because Jowan had made those cowardly decisions already. But for Jowan's magic, he's not in this same vulnerable position, doesn't get called upon to poison Eamon, and lives a fairly uneventful life. Loghain might be able to coerce the piano teacher (or whatever they had back then, since I don't think Thedas does pianos) but that piano teacher wouldn't have been Jowan.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juin 2013 - 07:09 .

[kalasaurus]

I can't go through with the betrayal, even knowing the truth. My mages got confirmation from Irving that Jowan was, in fact, going to be made tranquil. As annoying as Jowan is in the origin (and I do pick the teasing lines "Going through another personal crisis?", "My condolences, Lily", etc), I still wouldn't want to watch a childhood friend be turned into Owain. He trusts the mage Warden enough to share his plans when his own life is on the line. Of course the Warden's also putting his/her life in danger, but I don't like the feeling of betraying that trust.

(Also, you can gain approval from Wynne if you tell her that you stand by your decision to help Jowan escape. She says she respects that. That surprised me.)

Modifié par GlassElephant, 15 juin 2013 - 11:58 .

[Fuggyt]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


My main point, which you've managed to miss completely, is that Jowan was ultimately only in that position due to his mage status. That is why Loghain found him. If he'd just been some simple farmer or city laborer, maybe even a noble, he would never have been introduced to Loghain (or at least, not under those circumstances), or have been able to turn to blood magic. Nor do cowardice and mild stupidity really hurt much, if you're just an ordinary citizen.[/quote]

I didn't miss your point, I dis-missed it.  Or, rather, I already addressed it.  The only reason Jowan's magic was relevant was because Isolde needed an apostate to tutor Connor on the sly.  If Connor had shown musical aptitude instead, Loghain would've handed the arsenic to the piano teacher.
[/quote]

I think you missed why I addressed this, possibly on purpose; the only reason he had Jowan in particular over a barrel was because Jowan had made those cowardly decisions already. But for Jowan's magic, he's not in this same vulnerable position, doesn't get called upon to poison Eamon, and lives a fairly uneventful life. Loghain might be able to coerce the piano teacher (or whatever they had back then, since I don't think Thedas does pianos) but that piano teacher wouldn't have been Jowan.[/quote]

No.  That piano teacher would've been somebody a lot like him, though, some moral leper who's already corrupted himself through cowardice and folly by some other means  Seems to me you're hating on magic and taking it out on mages.  Since magic exists (in Thedas, anyway), you're just screaming about the weather and blaming the electrocutions on the lightning rods.  But surely you're not implying the plot on Eamon's life depended on magic, are you?  Suppose the situation is set in a world a little more like ours where there is no magic.  Or suppose Eamon and Isolde had sent little Connor to the tower so that Jowan's services would not be required.  Would the plot thereby never have happened?  Would Loghain not have slipped an assassin into Eamon's household on some other pretext with a vial of cyanide sewn inside a hem?  In this case, magic may have provided the opportunity, but that's merely circumstance and coincidence.  Magic had nothing to do with the means or motive.   In other very slightly altered circumstances, Jowan the Weaselly Piano Teacher could be just as dangerous as Jowan the Weaselly Apostate Blood Mage.  It's his character, not his skill set, that counts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Fuggyt wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]Fuggyt wrote...

I didn't miss your point, I dis-missed it.  Or, rather, I already addressed it.  The only reason Jowan's magic was relevant was because Isolde needed an apostate to tutor Connor on the sly.  If Connor had shown musical aptitude instead, Loghain would've handed the arsenic to the piano teacher.
[/quote]

I think you missed why I addressed this, possibly on purpose; the only reason he had Jowan in particular over a barrel was because Jowan had made those cowardly decisions already. But for Jowan's magic, he's not in this same vulnerable position, doesn't get called upon to poison Eamon, and lives a fairly uneventful life. Loghain might be able to coerce the piano teacher (or whatever they had back then, since I don't think Thedas does pianos) but that piano teacher wouldn't have been Jowan.[/quote]

No.  That piano teacher would've been somebody a lot like him, though, some moral leper who's already corrupted himself through cowardice and folly by some other means  Seems to me you're hating on magic and taking it out on mages.  Since magic exists (in Thedas, anyway), you're just screaming about the weather and blaming the electrocutions on the lightning rods.  But surely you're not implying the plot on Eamon's life depended on magic, are you?  Suppose the situation is set in a world a little more like ours where there is no magic.  Or suppose Eamon and Isolde had sent little Connor to the tower so that Jowan's services would not be required.  Would the plot thereby never have happened?  Would Loghain not have slipped an assassin into Eamon's household on some other pretext with a vial of cyanide sewn inside a hem?  In this case, magic may have provided the opportunity, but that's merely circumstance and coincidence.  Magic had nothing to do with the means or motive.   In other very slightly altered circumstances, Jowan the Weaselly Piano Teacher could be just as dangerous as Jowan the Weaselly Apostate Blood Mage.  It's his character, not his skill set, that counts.
[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I have trouble imagining that Loghain would have enough dirt on a piano teacher that said teacher would be unable to run to Eamon. Even were that the case, Jowan himself would probably not have been outside the law, due to not having magic, and while his failings are somewhat lamentable in anyone with the power to draw demons into this world and get abomination'd by one, they're not especially bad in someone who's job is to till fields. This has nothing to due with blaming magic, and everything to do with Jowan having a better personality for a peasant than for a mage.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 16 juin 2013 - 01:01 .

[Bhryaen]

I'm inclined to side with Riverdaleswhiteflash on this one. Whether mage, piano teacher, or window washer:

1. Jowan had his back up against a wall when he agreed to be an assassin: either Loghain was making him an offer he couldn't refuse ("... And maybe this way nothing will... happen... to your Lily...) or in any case it was either that and maybe escape the Chantry at last or have all his efforts to be free come to naught. This doesn't make Jowan laudable, but it relieves him of the accusation of being an eager accomplice to villainy and murder who sought it out voluntarily.
2. It's likely just as Jowan states it: he trusted Loghain's word just as did Isolde and so many others. Loghain's treachery only starts just prior to, just at, or just after Ostagar, so most folks wouldn't suspect they were in danger of betrayal by the Hero of Ferelden. Nor did Jowan have a clue about Arl Eamon to know if Loghain were telling the truth about him. Plus Jowan was in no position to be savvy about Ferelden politics and current affairs anyway given his lifetime cooped up in the Tower. Again, this makes him ignorant and a dupe, not laudable, but still- not a villain.

I'd reserve my greatest ire for those who make themselves one's mortal enemy. Jowan is at worst a very unlucky and self-absorbed bumbler and lackwit, not a malevolent schemer and antagonist. So my characters treat him accordingly...

[Klidi]

I betrayed him only once, to see what happens. Yes, he lies about blood magic but my PC did not know that at the moment. And yes, the plan is not very good, but for my PC, that's not good enough reason to rat on their best friend and have him turned into a Tranquil. Without metagaming, I don't see a reason for betrayal, unless you like to play a selfish **** Warden.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, if your warden doesn't like Jowan much, or even if they do, I see plenty of reason for betrayal. You may not want to get executed or sent to the mage prison for your best friend, and there's no exit plan for YOU.

[Ridirkulous]

Didn't know this was possible until after I saw this thread and pulled a video of it up on youtube. Do you have to speak to Irving before you even try to get the rod of fire? The video just cuts of the convos but it seems thay way. Heck, I typically don't mind Jowan and I just have to try this. It's definitely plausible as his master plan is nothing short of suicidal.

Modifié par Ridirkulous, 18 juin 2013 - 06:36 .

[Klidi]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, if your warden doesn't like Jowan much, or even if they do, I see plenty of reason for betrayal. You may not want to get executed or sent to the mage prison for your best friend, and there's no exit plan for YOU.

True, but if they weren't caught, there would be no evidence that the Warden was involved. And I doubt they'd send the 'Irving's star pupil' to Aeonar or made him/her tranquil just based on suspicion. There is no exit plan for Jowan, either - or at least the Warden thinks so, at the moment he agrees to help.

[Corker]

Klidi wrote...

True, but if they weren't caught, there would be no evidence that the Warden was involved.

There's the whole fire rod part of the caper, alas.  The door will have signs of being burned open, Owain will say that he gave you the fire rod, and various Senior Enchanters may testify that you pestered them for their signatures. 

[Klidi]

I don't think Sweeney (who asked the Warden to burn the pants off a Templar) or Leonorah (who would have to admit her incompetence) would witness against the Warden. And, if the Warden is half as bright as the title 'Irving's star pupil' indicates (and it also implies some kind of priviledged position), he would have an explanation or "research" ready. Or he could go and report it was stolen from him by his friend... So I still think that if the escape was sucessful, the Warden might have to do some explanations, but I don't think he'd be in a big trouble, or in life danger.
On the other hand, going to the Irving and ratting on Jowan would, imho, immediately put him on the Templar's list of suspects. In war or in tyrannic regimes, the collaborators are first on the hit if something happens.
I might be biased due to my personal experience - I've grown up in communist regime, and helped smuggling forbidden things into the country. The risk if we got caught was high, yes. But if we collaborated, it wouldn't be better - we would have been secretely followed and controlled at all times, and probably forced into further cooperation. In both cases, it would be life full of pain and fear, but in the second case, there would be also secrecy, pretence in front of family and friend, and remorse.

It's not as easy to live with the knowledge that because of you, your friend is suffering 'fate worse than death' as it seems. Rational arguments for decision soon sound and feel like empty excuses, and life turns into living hell...

There are those who would collaborate with the regime to gain some privilege or profit, and who don't care about things like conscience. That's why I said a badass Warden would do it. But normal, average person? Based on my experience, and people I know, I doubt it very much.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

There are those who would collaborate with the regime to gain some privilege or profit, and who don't care about things like conscience. That's why I said a badass Warden would do it. But normal, average person? Based on my experience, and people I know, I doubt it very much.

I think the best description of a normal, average person's reaction would be "I'm staying out of this, but good luck getting out anyway." I certainly wouldn't hand him in or risk myself by abetting him. But that's not an option because then Duncan doesn't get to see how incredibly badass you are.

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Klidi wrote...

There are those who would collaborate with the regime to gain some privilege or profit, and who don't care about things like conscience. That's why I said a badass Warden would do it. But normal, average person? Based on my experience, and people I know, I doubt it very much.

I think the best description of a normal, average person's reaction would be "I'm staying out of this, but good luck getting out anyway." I certainly wouldn't hand him in or risk myself by abetting him. But that's not an option because then Duncan doesn't get to see how incredibly badass you are.

Exactly.  There's a certain amount of metagaming that goes on even on one's first playthrough.  I didn't worry too much about whether Jowan's plan was very credible or not because it was so transparently a plot point, and I just figured helping him was the quickest way to make something happen.  RPG rule of thumb:  when someone invites you to visit a basement, dungeon, cave, or ruin, accept.

Would the normal, average person's reaction be the same if a friend was facing Tranquility?  "I know you need someone you can trust who's passed the Harrowing or you have no chance of retrieving your phylactery, but I'm staying out of this.  Good luck getting out anyway.  Enjoy your lobotomy."  Do we feel better if it's not much of a friend?  "You're kind of annoying, maybe a lobotomy will help with that."   Of course, it turns out he's a blood mage, but we don't know that at the time, so is it okay to Tranquilize him as long as it turns out he was asking for it?

I still say he's a treacherous weasel. 

Modifié par Fuggyt, 19 juin 2013 - 07:06 .

[Endurium]

My human Circle Mage dark warden has a silver tongue but a nasty bedside manner. Thus I pretended to help Jowan but did so with Irving's blessing, to cover my butt. Later I used Jowan to accomplish my evil ends, and eventually will visit my carnage upon the Circle. Mwahaha.

I think there's railroading because no matter what we do, Duncan's there to take us away. It's written up such that we're in trouble and Duncan saves the day.

[Bardox9]

I betray Jowan to Irving. Not because he's a blood mage. Hell my mages usually learn blood magic. I betray him because it is almost impossible to believe Irving and/or Greagoir wouldn't have some kind of safe guard in place to alert them when ever the "Victims Door" was opened. No matter how it would turn out, you would beon the run for the rest of your life for helping Jowan. Blood magic or no blood magic.

Without knowing ahead of time that Duncan would swoop in and save you, helping Jowan is short sighted and just plain stupid. Their plan doesn't even include actually getting out of the tower.

Modifié par Bardox9, 23 juin 2013 - 10:34 .