315 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

David Gaider wrote...

spirosz wrote...
Again, there is a difference between we want and we will show. They wanted and believe that fans deserve more than a teaser, but until E3, I'm assuming all that could be shown is a teaser, until they are more comfortable with showcasing something that will give reassurance to fans.

That's how I see that wording and what was executed at E3.

Yep. Timeline changed. Plans changed. Full reveal still to come-- or, I should amend, that's my current assumption. Perhaps I should simply say nothing, lest someone quote me six months from now or something.

Yay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BasilKarlo wrote...

BioWare said the reveal was going to be "substantial" and "leave no room for questions." We didn't say that, the developers did. I'm tired of people blaming the fans every time BioWare screws up or lies.

First, they didn't say that.  They used those words, but not in that sentence contruction.  If you're going to be picky, be picky about everything.

Second, if they had said what you're saying they said, you should have known right away that they were possibly lying.  They were talking about the future.  They can't possibly know the future with 100% certainty, so there was always the chance they were just going to turn out to be wrong.

You're angry now not because they promised something, but because you didn't discount for risk.  Instead, you took what you thought they said (but didn't actually say) as a guarantee, rather than the hopeful supposition it explicitly was.

[TheRealJayDee]

David Gaider wrote...

spirosz wrote...
Again, there is a difference between we want and we will show. They wanted and believe that fans deserve more than a teaser, but until E3, I'm assuming all that could be shown is a teaser, until they are more comfortable with showcasing something that will give reassurance to fans.

That's how I see that wording and what was executed at E3.

Yep. Timeline changed. Plans changed. Full reveal still to come-- or, I should amend, that's my current assumption. Perhaps I should simply say nothing, lest someone quote me six months from now or something.

Believe it or not, I get all that. Plans changed. A teaser at this point makes sense. More to come later. I stated as much prior in this thread, and I was completely at peace with it all. 

It just really irks me that people seem to feel the need to repeatedly imply that everyone who read those quotes before E3 and dared to believe to have a general idea about how Bioware meant to approach the reveal of their new game was somehow being completely unreasonable. I'm sorry, I didn't know about the internal changes of plans until they were made public. That's when I said "Huh, that wasn't what I expected". That's ****ing all.

I simply took those statements more seriously than not, until they were replaced/updated, and seemingly it was wrong/ridiculous to do so in the first place. Whatever. Hurm, for the sake of my blood pressure I'll better just leave this thread...

[Allan Schumacher]

I said that schedule slips aren't generally considered good news, and IMX anyway they aren't. That doesn't mean that it's always unmitigated bad news either, but when I manage a project one of my caution flags go up when I start to see schedule slippage (which mind you often happens...in fact schedule slippage usually happens in fact). That doesn't mean it's ideal.

If it usually happens, wouldn't that more just make it "news" rather than something qualitatively good or bad? I think the context would be different if this was the 2nd or 3rd time that the date gets pushed back.

[Angrywolves]

How do we know it won't Schumacher ? Obviously Gaider shouldn't have said what he said. However, he is a writer and not a technical guy so he might not have been up to speed with the technical issues when he made those comments.
I wasn't impressed by the trailer, however I am sure they'll release a better one at some point.

[IanPolaris]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I said that schedule slips aren't generally considered good news, and IMX anyway they aren't. That doesn't mean that it's always unmitigated bad news either, but when I manage a project one of my caution flags go up when I start to see schedule slippage (which mind you often happens...in fact schedule slippage usually happens in fact). That doesn't mean it's ideal.

If it usually happens, wouldn't that more just make it "news" rather than something qualitatively good or bad? I think the context would be different if this was the 2nd or 3rd time that the date gets pushed back.

How do we know that it isn't the second or third time already? From an outside PoV, we don't.  I also think that one year is a very large chunk of time for it to be considered a 'routine' slippage.  This is why (and I said this already) my first reaction is that something must have gone badly wrong somewhere.

Had the slippage been to say March or April 2014, I don't think you'd see near the reaction.

-Polaris

[Angrywolves]

I said they're having problems as well and I get called negative. As it is getting into arguments about the trailer or what we were told would be in it or should have been in it are counterproductive. It is what it is and all we can hope for is more info in the next one. Laidlaw said he will be at pax east. Maybe we'll learn more then.

[Daralii]

Angrywolves wrote...

I said they're having problems as well and I get called negative. As it is getting into arguments about the trailer or what we were told would be in it or should have been in it are counterproductive. It is what it is and all we can hope for is more info in the next one. Laidlaw said he will be at pax east. Maybe we'll learn more then.

It's a safe assumption. Bioware has a history of revealing a game at E3 with a trailer and showing off gameplay at PAX or a subsequent con. They seem to prefer community driven things for that more than press driven ones.

[Allan Schumacher]

It just really irks me that people seem to feel the need to repeatedly imply that everyone who read those quotes before E3 and dared to believe to have a general idea about how Bioware meant to approach the reveal of their new game was somehow being completely unreasonable. I'm sorry, I didn't know about the internal changes of plans until they were made public. That's when I said "Huh, that wasn't what I expected". That's ****ing all.

I simply took those statements more seriously than not, until they were replaced/updated, and seemingly it was wrong/ridiculous to do so in the first place. Whatever. Hurm, for the sake of my blood pressure I'll better just leave this thread...

It's okay to have interpret those past comments to set that level of expectation for yourself. My mental imagery has you having that expectation, so once you saw DAI news, it was some level of "oh boy, here it comes!" And then not getting what you thought was coming is obviously a big let down.

I don't think you're being silly nor unreasonable for getting your hopes up, and you're right that it's not exactly productive to get slammed with "Why'd you get your hopes up so much?" repeatedly. It's a bit like when I would strike out on my baseball team, and 9 different people would tell me I screwed up by striking out.

You're right that you didn't know the changes to the plan. I have a feeling though, that even upon learning of the change, it didn't alleviate your disappointment. Am I correct?

It's fine to be disappointed upon first seeing it based on your expectation. It's less good if you're still finding yourself disappointed, and I say "less good" in that I mean "That's not what I, Allan Schumacher, want you to be feeling at the moment." Is this still the case? Or is any continued frustration more "Yes, I realize my expectations were high, and it's not exactly helping being told by dozens of people that my anticipation was in error, and feeling relatively attacked for it?"

[AngryFrozenWater]

If another year is added to the development then maybe we shouldn't see any actual gameplay at all. Ghehe. If it really was worth showing yet then I guess Bioware would do it.

[Allan Schumacher]

IanPolaris wrote...

How do we know that it isn't the second or third time already? From an outside PoV, we don't.  I also think that one year is a very large chunk of time for it to be considered a 'routine' slippage.  This is why (and I said this already) my first reaction is that something must have gone badly wrong somewhere.

How do you know some game you really liked doesn't also fit into this criteria of having multiple delays that you never hear about?  Do you think that Dragon Age Origins originally slated to have as much development time as it did?  Assuming it exceeded 2 or 3 delays (I don't actually know the answer to this question), would it have been better for you, as a gamer, to scrap the project?


You're right that you don't know if it is or is not the second or third time already.  All you have is the information that is given to you.  If you wish to conspiracy theorize, my suggestion to you would be to find a way to set yourself to zero expectations for the game.  (Given that I learned how to do this, I do feel that it's in almost everyone's power to learn how to do this).  You're already placing forward hypotheticals, and at this point, it seems to be a reinforcement of your impressions of the company.

Which is fine.  If you don't trust us, I'd only expect you to temper your expectations even just as a defense mechanism to prevent further disappointments.


If we now need to be held accountable to the things that you imagine might be the case, I do not feel we will ever satisfy you, and would honestly feel more inclined to simply accept the idea that "Our prerelease decisions will not make IanPolaris happy.  At best he likes the game when it's released, but lets focus on the people that we can reach during prerelease marketing."

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 juin 2013 - 05:02 .

[TsaiMeLemoni]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If another year is added to the development then maybe we shouldn't see any actual gameplay at all. Ghehe. If it really was worth showing yet then I guess Bioware would do it.

This is kind of my feeling. I think it'd be a bit silly to show gameplay this far in advance, particularly since it'd be likely there would be several changes to said gameplay between now and then.

I am glad there's another year or so before release, as that should help avoid any elements from being too rushed.

[Angrywolves]

Schumacher is holding our hands.
Babysitting the fans. Seems like that to me. We're all grown up. Don't need to babbied.
On to the next thing to argue about.

Some info would be nice. Like a pacfier. Grins.

[AngryFrozenWater]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If another year is added to the development then maybe we shouldn't see any actual gameplay at all. Ghehe. If it really was worth showing yet then I guess Bioware would do it.

This is kind of my feeling. I think it'd be a bit silly to show gameplay this far in advance, particularly since it'd be likely there would be several changes to said gameplay between now and then.

I am glad there's another year or so before release, as that should help avoid any elements from being too rushed.

Yes. Another year is not like putting the dots on the i. In that year a lot can change. Give them space.

So I want to see gameplay next week!

[In Exile]

David Gaider wrote...
Yep. Timeline changed. Plans changed. Full reveal still to come-- or, I should amend, that's my current assumption. Perhaps I should simply say nothing, lest someone quote me six months from now or something.

DG confirms that event are fluid through time! 

[Examurai]

Just wait till next year's E3 for the gameplay. I think that time would be more appropriate.

[RaenImrahl]

Angrywolves wrote...

Schumacher is holding our hands.
Babysitting the fans. Seems like that to me. We're all grown up. Don't need to babbied.
On to the next thing to argue about.

Some info would be nice. Like a pacfier. Grins.

Feedback is always welcome.  Trolling the devs is most certainly not.  Let's keep the discussion on topic, please.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
How do we know that it isn't the second or third time already? From an outside PoV, we don't.  I also think that one year is a very large chunk of time for it to be considered a 'routine' slippage.  This is why (and I said this already) my first reaction is that something must have gone badly wrong somewhere.

Had the slippage been to say March or April 2014, I don't think you'd see near the reaction.

-Polaris

This reaction honestly confuses me. We know that Bioware was on basically the DA2 timeline with a 2013 release, if not even tighter when you account for the fact they`ve switched to an engine that has to be built from the ground up.

Instead of seeing the longer dev time as a positive development (for me, a "delay" was an important litmus for seeing if EA has the right business plan). 

[blueumi]

I would rather bioware had all the time they need to make dragon age 3 the best game it can be then be rushed

[IanPolaris]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If we now need to be held accountable to the things that you imagine might be the case, I do not feel we will ever satisfy you, and would honestly feel more inclined to simply accept the idea that "Our prerelease decisions will not make IanPolaris happy.  At best he likes the game when it's released, but lets focus on the people that we can reach during prerelease marketing."

Rather than direct this at me personally, perhaps it might be wise to recognize the Bioware's track record has been less than stellar lately when it comes to being honest and forthright.  That is about as critical as I intend to get, but I do hope you and your fellows at Bioware take this to heart.  If I have less than stellar trust in Bioware right now, then understand that I am far from alone, and that lack of trust did not come from no where.

There is an old English saying, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."  Perhaps that might explain some of the skepticism.  Again, I am being unusually sharp tonight but that's to be expected I think after being essentialy told "I don't matter" by name.

-Polaris

[Amtorian]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Given the things fans often say (They better give this game enough time), I'm not entirely convinced that "Fall 2014" is even unequivocally "bad news." Plenty of people said they liked seeing that, and even elaborated that it's because they appreciate the indication that EA is willing to give the project more time.

<lurker move off>

I enjoyed the trailer.  I was excited to see it and I think that the new later release date is good.  Certainly, there are other fans, who are, like me, excited to see what the team can do with the Frostbite Engine.  This trailer teases those capabilities - which just so happens to be something it was meant to do.

I have played BioWare games for a long time.  They have built up a lot of goodwill with me over the years.  Has that goodwill taken a hit in the last few years?  I'd be lying if I said "no".  However, BioWare has shown (at least to me) that they are pretty good about learning from their mistakes.  They also take feedback into account.  Yes, there are some who don't believe that, but I am not one of them.  Take a look at the ME3 Multiplayer Level Survey results post on the BioWare blog, as an example.  blog.bioware.com/2013/05/17/mp-survey-results-and-conclusions/.  Watch some of the Dragon Age panels from one of the various CONs.  Those should prove to you that they do both.  

Over our history together (as developer::gamer), they've earned a modicum of trust from me.  So, I believe them when they say that they will take the extra time to add polish, tighten up features, and improve the gameplay.  I'm sure some people who read that last bit, are skeptical and/or think I'm crazy.  However, I recently started playing DA2 again, and for me, it has aged well.  The balance changes and bug fixes from the 1.03 & 1.04 patches were well done, and I appreciate the work that was put into them.  The DLC was also enjoyable.  Mark of the Assassin was great.  Legacy was good, but I didn't enjoy it as much as MotA.  Put all of those together, and I'm enjoying DA2 far more than I did on the initial play through.  Which is wonderful (in case you weren't sure).

All that being said, I'm looking forward to a DA:I.  I'm sure that there will be a mix of DA:O, DA2, and new features/innovations that will make for a very good game.  Do I think DA:I be perfect?  Probably not, but I'm willing to bet that it will be damn good, and I think the DA team will make good use of extra time.

[Savber100]

No no no... Look Bioware the problem right now is that some people are concerned over the miscommunication of what previous tweets and devs said on "showing and not just tell" motto along with many implications that the initial reveal will be beyond a teaser.

Whether someone actually said stated that doesn't change the fact that what many fans misinterpreted the many tweets and statements.

All I ask is that Bioware be a little clearer in their communication.

Hint at the possible release date change. Clarify any seen misinterpretation.

[ianvillan]

Amtorian wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Given the things fans often say (They better give this game enough time), I'm not entirely convinced that "Fall 2014" is even unequivocally "bad news." Plenty of people said they liked seeing that, and even elaborated that it's because they appreciate the indication that EA is willing to give the project more time.

<lurker move off>

I enjoyed the trailer.  I was excited to see it and I think that the new later release date is good.  Certainly, there are other fans, who are, like me, excited to see what the team can do with the Frostbite Engine.  This trailer teases those capabilities - which just so happens to be something it was meant to do.

I have played BioWare games for a long time.  They have built up a lot of goodwill with me over the years.  Has that goodwill taken a hit in the last few years?  I'd be lying if I said "no".  However, BioWare has shown (at least to me) that they are pretty good about learning from their mistakes.  They also take feedback into account.  Yes, there are some who don't believe that, but I am not one of them.  Take a look at the ME3 Multiplayer Level Survey results post on the BioWare blog, as an example.  blog.bioware.com/2013/05/17/mp-survey-results-and-conclusions/.  Watch some of the Dragon Age panels from one of the various CONs.  Those should prove to you that they do both.  

Over our history together (as developer::gamer), they've earned a modicum of trust from me.  So, I believe them when they say that they will take the extra time to add polish, tighten up features, and improve the gameplay.  I'm sure some people who read that last bit, are skeptical and/or think I'm crazy.  However, I recently started playing DA2 again, and for me, it has aged well.  The balance changes and bug fixes from the 1.03 & 1.04 patches were well done, and I appreciate the work that was put into them.  The DLC was also enjoyable.  Mark of the Assassin was great.  Legacy was good, but I didn't enjoy it as much as MotA.  Put all of those together, and I'm enjoying DA2 far more than I did on the initial play through.  Which is wonderful (in case you weren't sure).

All that being said, I'm looking forward to a DA:I.  I'm sure that there will be a mix of DA:O, DA2, and new features/innovations that will make for a very good game.  Do I think DA:I be perfect?  Probably not, but I'm willing to bet that it will be damn good, and I think the DA team will make good use of extra time.

I am glad you and other fans have faith in Bioware and I truly hope you are right and the game will be as good as you believe, but many fans were let down by the direction of DA2 and the marketing for the game.

Before the release of DA2 some fans who were worried about how the game was shaping up were trying to ask questions about it but were constantly told we don't have all the information and should wait for latter, or told that we should play the game and our questions will be answered, my favourite response to some of the questions was that we cant handle change and should stop asking the questions.

The marketing for DA2 was worse because most of what we were shown was teasers or specially crafted to show only certain bits of the game that first person shooters were RPGs and more emphasis was put on catchphrase's than on showing the game in its true light. In almost every interview we were told how Origins was not that good and that DA2 had all the best bits of Origins added to the game already.  

The start of DAI started out strong Bioware engaged fans on the forums and the conventions went through some of the directions that they see the game heading and they said they wanted to have the best of both games, we got the companion armour blog which I would say the majority of fans of both games liked. but after that Bioware seemed to revert back to there old mind-set.

We hear about Bioware wanting the best of both games in almost every interview they do (It is becoming the new awesome button) yet we have had only one feature shown that is the best of both games, and have had been told of many features of DA2 returning but when we ask about Origin features returning they are tight lipped and say we should wait longer.
Bioware has stated that DA2 had all the best features of Origins, they mention DA2 features returning we get silence on Origin features so is the best of both true or just another marketing phrase to keep some fans quiet as long as possible. What features of Origins if any do Bioware think were any good and plan to bring in to DAI.

In the conventions Bioware went too Mike Laidlaw said how the marketing was confusing and did not give all the information about the game to the fans and that they want to be more open and leave fans with a clear picture of the game so why have they now reverted back to there old marketing strategies.

[Rixatrix]

You can never make some people happy. Their hands were tied, people. They told us when they could. Take umbrage all you like, but no one's about to lose their jobs disseminating strategic information like release date changes a little early to please people who will only rain hellfire and damnation on you for having the audacity to not work "fast enough" on the game to avoid delays in the first place. To even expect that is ridiculous.

BW owed us no explanation at all. In fact, they don't even need to communicate with us here, but for reasons unknown and unfathomable to me, they do. And yet, your question of "Why didn't they tell us as soon as they knew?" was answered quite thoroughly by David and Allan.

Leave the nattering naysayers to add another tally mark to their count of "ways BW has personally slighted me," and try to reach the people you actually can with pre-release marketing. There are a lot more positive topics about DA:I to focus on here.

[neonmoth]

IanPolaris wrote...

neonmoth wrote...

I have seen the link, it's just few pages back. Unfortunately, I have made a mistake of reading through it. What is obvious is that some posters need to manage their expectations as well (maybe a couple of months out of bsn would do them good). I cannot believe that people are still trying to argue over this knowing that the game's release is next year. I assume the reveal is not done yet, the trailer is not a Blur teaser but it shows in-game assets and gives an idea how the game will look like. That's something. Possibly in the next half a year we will be shown some more (along the lines W3 reveal, which is released approx half a year earlier than DAI). How some expect gameplay trailer so early I have no idea. Even if BW was in position to provide it at this point, I wouldn't see the value of it, since presented features would be subject to change/modification.

Edit: After giving it some thought, I can understand the frustration to some extent, since it's fueled by the impatience to find out more about the game after long time of silence. At the same time, I think it is unhealthy to allow frustration to escalate to the point that people become bitter and resentful over the forum boards. I'm not trying to tell anybody how they should feel, it's just that gloom and doom can be very contagious and deal a considerable spirit damage even to bystanders.

You are missing the point.  You say that the people here on BSN should tone down their expectations?  Well, where did they get those expectations from?  Bioware itself fueled those expectations and that was entirely my point.  You say it's unreasonable for us to expect more with a target release date so far out, but the Bioware representatives here will still talking about a release data a full year sooner as little as a few days before E3!

Is it any wonder why a number of fans feel they've been misled at best?  This is what I mean about managing expectations.  Apparently those inside Bioware have known for a while know that there had been some very serious slippage from the original estimated Q3 2013 date.  IMHO it would have been far better and made for far more effective message management to simply tell the fans well in advance of E3 and accept the initial dissapointment before doing your dog and pony show for the gaming community as a whole.  THEN you release your trailer. 

Again, I am not trying call anyone out, but I do think it's perfectly fair to call out Bioware for some pretty poor message management IMHO.

-Polaris

I know I am late to reply, but just wanted to clarify that I was basing my point mostly on the conversation you were referring to. I guess I could expand it over the disappointment reflected by some after the reveal. I don't agree that managing expectations lies solely on the developer, though undeniably they are the party involved. People tend to wind themselves up over the limited amount of information and often disregard contradictory statements just because it doesn't agree with what they want to believe. Maybe it is only my impression, but just before the reveal all I could see were comments from developers asking not to set our hopes too high. Did I still set my hopes too high? Of course.  And I was as hell disappointed that we have to wait an extra year for release. But then I moved on. I don't think that providing information about a change in the release date before E3 would make a major difference. I'm almost certain it would be received with a similar backlash as it is now. There is never a good time for a bad news.

Edit: Before you will write that I am missing your point again... I see your point but I have a slightly different opinion on the matter.

Modifié par neonmoth, 15 juin 2013 - 10:41 .