315 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleh23465]

I do not post on here very often either and I have played through ME series and DA series. Personally I think that they are some of the best stories I have seen for a while. The teaser trailer was cool, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up when I saw the first of it. Keep doing what your doing Bioware. ME3 was game of the year, could have another one on your hand who knows.

[IanPolaris]

I think the real problem right now is that Bioware has not done a very good job IMHO of managing expectations at least w/r/t DA:I. I could repost the links that Fast Jimmy mentioned, but they speak for themselves. Not only that but while Bioware internally may have known there was significant slippage in the original estimated date, most of the rest of us outside BW did not (althouhg many of us shrewdly guessed that the game was going to have to be delayed well into 2014 because of the lack of information we were getting).

When there is an expectations gap, people are going to get irritated. That should suprise no one.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[neonmoth]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think the real problem right now is that Bioware has not done a very good job IMHO of managing expectations at least w/r/t DA:I. I could repost the links that Fast Jimmy mentioned, but they speak for themselves. Not only that but while Bioware internally may have known there was significant slippage in the original estimated date, most of the rest of us outside BW did not (althouhg many of us shrewdly guessed that the game was going to have to be delayed well into 2014 because of the lack of information we were getting).

When there is an expectations gap, people are going to get irritated. That should suprise no one.

-Polaris

I have seen the link, it's just few pages back. Unfortunately, I have made a mistake of reading through it. What is obvious is that some posters need to manage their expectations as well (maybe a couple of months out of bsn would do them good). I cannot believe that people are still trying to argue over this knowing that the game's release is next year. I assume the reveal is not done yet, the trailer is not a Blur teaser but it shows in-game assets and gives an idea how the game will look like. That's something. Possibly in the next half a year we will be shown some more (along the lines W3 reveal, which is released approx half a year earlier than DAI). How some expect gameplay trailer so early I have no idea. Even if BW was in position to provide it at this point, I wouldn't see the value of it, since presented features would be subject to change/modification.

Edit: After giving it some thought, I can understand the frustration to some extent, since it's fueled by the impatience to find out more about the game after long time of silence. At the same time, I think it is unhealthy to allow frustration to escalate to the point that people become bitter and resentful over the forum boards. I'm not trying to tell anybody how they should feel, it's just that gloom and doom can be very contagious and deal a considerable spirit damage even to bystanders.

Modifié par neonmoth, 14 juin 2013 - 01:51 .

[Lokiwithrope]

If what I heard was correct, the entire trailer was using the engine.

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Yes, we ended up not going "all out bonanza."  Mostly because of the release change.  We needed to share that the release date was shifting, and wanted to give a sneak peek at some stuff as a teaser.  For myself, when I see a lot of the frustration, I find myself getting the impression that people are very upset mostly for the idea that the reveal wasn't along the guidelines of what we had originally intended for our reveal, as opposed to the idea that a trailer 15-18 months out doesn't have any real gameplay in it.

I think most of the issues people may have had with the trailer/reveal were with the communication regarding the release date shift more than anything. Because BioWare ( Darrah, Laidlaw, Flynn and so forth) kept towing the same company line of a late 2013 release, up until relatively close to E3, combined with the previous statements about doing a big content rich blowout when the game would be revealed, people maybe expected more.

But as you said, the release date change was known about for a while (pretty much leaked out via the early May EA conference call) yet the why wasn't that communicated to fans? I think if people went into E3 knowing that DA3 wasn't coming until late 2014 and that they'd only show an in engine teaser, expectations would have been kept in check. So instead of people feeling duped about the promises of some content blowout when the game was revealed, they'd know to just expect a a trailer since the game is still >1 year away.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The decision to delay isn't something that happened on June 9th either.  I've known for a while, and others knew before me.  There's a whole mess of stuff that I don't even fully understand, that I learned prior to DAO's release when it had a small delay and I asked "why don't we just state this somewhere?"  And it's not for marketing reasons.  Since I don't fully know all of the details, I'll mostly leave it at that since I don't want to misrepresent anything.  (Though as a developer, it was interesting watching release date discussion, even though I knew the answer)  If you notice, a lot of the commentary mostly continued to tow the official line, and even some of the more obvious hints that a delay was possible that were mentioned went well beyond what I was confident sharing.

Sure, that makes sense too, considering EA is a huge publicly traded company. Still, not getting that sort of bad news of the release date slip out before the trailer seems like poor messaging and muddied the waters about the actual trailer and feeling a little duped.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I liked creating the trailer, and as a gamer and fan that talks on these message boards, knowing that we were getting Claudia Black to narrate, and were doing to show off Morrigan (a huge fan favourite) as well as Varric (also a fan favourite), with a badass Qunari, spliced in with some shots that show the level of fidelity that Frostbite will be able to deliver on top of some early sneak peaks at what some of the levels will look like and brief glimpse to the potential size that these levels may have, was all stuff that had me excited.  In my mind, we were showing (not telling) some brief snippets to build up some buzz, while announcing our release shift.  I was eager to see how people would react, and pretty much had to work late on Monday because I pissed away half the day clicking refresh on the various threads here as well as other places on the web.

Again, if I was in control, I'd have announced the release date shift before E3. Bad news before good news and all that.

It also would have helped to have some official commentary on what we were actually seeing in the trailer or just some amount of discussion on what the very broad and general goals are for the game. The only thing I gathered is that it'll be some sort of open world game and the story has demons invading from the Fade, with war everywhere and the Inquisitor has to fix things. Like what you just said in the above paragraph was more informative. Those were some actual levels from the game in the trailer? Fantastic! I never would have known otherwise, since the trailer was framed in such a cinematic way, not showing anything that looked like gameplay.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Am I just being optimistic, or (aesthetic reservations aside for a beloved character that may look different in ways you find unappealing) would people be satisfied with a game that looked pretty darn close to what you saw in the trailer, with a bit of polish on other features.

Maybe? That's sort of my issue with the trailer, is that it looks very technically proficient for the most part but that's all one can really judge it on- the art design and some of the technical merits like the lighting maybe. Because it was framed as such a cinematic looking trailer, I think its easier for people to blow it off maybe unjustly as just being a CG trailer. Because there wasn't anything there that looked like gameplay. I don't know if I'd be satisfied with a game that looked like that since I couldn't tell in the trailer if there were any shots that would be indicative of how the game would look when I was actually playing it. If its indicitive of the quality of the cutscenes (Technically, speaking- not crazy about a lot of the art design) then sure, it looks fine.

[IanPolaris]

neonmoth wrote...

I have seen the link, it's just few pages back. Unfortunately, I have made a mistake of reading through it. What is obvious is that some posters need to manage their expectations as well (maybe a couple of months out of bsn would do them good). I cannot believe that people are still trying to argue over this knowing that the game's release is next year. I assume the reveal is not done yet, the trailer is not a Blur teaser but it shows in-game assets and gives an idea how the game will look like. That's something. Possibly in the next half a year we will be shown some more (along the lines W3 reveal, which is released approx half a year earlier than DAI). How some expect gameplay trailer so early I have no idea. Even if BW was in position to provide it at this point, I wouldn't see the value of it, since presented features would be subject to change/modification.

Edit: After giving it some thought, I can understand the frustration to some extent, since it's fueled by the impatience to find out more about the game after long time of silence. At the same time, I think it is unhealthy to allow frustration to escalate to the point that people become bitter and resentful over the forum boards. I'm not trying to tell anybody how they should feel, it's just that gloom and doom can be very contagious and deal a considerable spirit damage even to bystanders.

You are missing the point.  You say that the people here on BSN should tone down their expectations?  Well, where did they get those expectations from?  Bioware itself fueled those expectations and that was entirely my point.  You say it's unreasonable for us to expect more with a target release date so far out, but the Bioware representatives here will still talking about a release data a full year sooner as little as a few days before E3!

Is it any wonder why a number of fans feel they've been misled at best?  This is what I mean about managing expectations.  Apparently those inside Bioware have known for a while know that there had been some very serious slippage from the original estimated Q3 2013 date.  IMHO it would have been far better and made for far more effective message management to simply tell the fans well in advance of E3 and accept the initial dissapointment before doing your dog and pony show for the gaming community as a whole.  THEN you release your trailer. 

Again, I am not trying call anyone out, but I do think it's perfectly fair to call out Bioware for some pretty poor message management IMHO.

-Polaris

[Rixatrix]

 People are clearly mad that BioWare withheld the release date change till E3.  I see arguments for putting out that info early, but sometimes, in business, releasing a negative couched within a positive is a good move.  

Releasing the delay info early? Massive whiny ****storm on BSN, maybe press speculating about possible "problems" as BioWare, etc.  

Releasing it with the trailer?  Sure, people are upset, but if that trailer was done with the game engine, there is also a lot to be excited about - plus Morrigan, Varric, and Cassandra (at least two fan favorites) made their appearance.  The reaction by and large is, "Well, I don't like that the release date is pushed back, but that trailer looks promising!"

It makes perfect sense, and I can't help but feel that much of "WTF BioWare?!" reaction is fueled by emotion at not being in the loop, feeling played for a fool, and/or having to wait longer.  Personally, I have none of that.  I always knew the release date info was tentative - I was, after all, a Guild Wars player (GW2 delays, anyone?).  Or perhaps being a lawyer, I can more easily sympathize with "the best time" to release information.  

I mean really, it comes down to: "They waited to tell me it was going to be late until they had something substantial to show with it!"  Instead of being posed all sorts of questions about the state of development and state of the company etc., BioWare chose to release delay information with a solid assurance in the form of a trailer.  Is that really so hard to justify?

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 14 juin 2013 - 09:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Filament wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Is it any wonder why a number of fans feel they've been misled at best?

Yes. The release date was never definitive. Anyone who took it as a promise need to learn what a grain of salt is.

A year is a pretty extreme amount to be off by.  Even the most pessimistic estimates here on BSN prior was late spring of 2014.  If you can't figure out why a number of people feel misled (at best) then you have no clue regarding human nature.

I still think this managing of expectations was very poorly handled.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

 People are clearly mad that BioWare withheld the release date change till E3.  I see arguments for putting out that info early, but sometimes, in business, releasing a negative couched within a positive is a good move.  
Releasing the delay info early? Massive whiny ****storm on BSN, maybe press speculating about possible "problems" as BioWare, etc.  

I doubt this.  Given that the target date was emphatically never solid, we could have been let down gently and there wouldn't have been much for the press to write about honestly.

Releasing it with the trailer?  Sure, people are upset, but if that trailer was done with the game engine, there is also a lot to be excited about - plus Morrigan, Varric, and Cassandra (at least two fan favorites) made their appearance.  The reaction by and large is, "Well, I don't like that the release date is pushed back, but that trailer looks promising!"

The "game engine" bit is really a lot less than meets the eye without any game-play elements as well.  I think most people that follow such things realize this.  I also point out that giving yourself negative press at the same time as trying to mitigate it with positive press at something like E3 is tricky at best.  Far better IMO to be fully positive during E3 when you are making your public presentations.

The real issue was that DA:I was revealed far too soon.  I understand why this was done, but it was too soon.

It makes perfect sense, and I can't help but feel that much of "WTF BioWare?!" reaction is fueled by emotion at not being in the loop, feeling played for a fool, and/or having to wait longer.  Personally, I have none of that.  I always knew the release date info was tentative - I was, after all, a Guild Wars player (GW2 delays, anyone?).  Or perhaps being a lawyer, I can more easily sympathize with "the best time" to release information.  
I mean really, it comes down to: "They waited to tell me it was going to be late until they had something substantial to show with it!"  Instead of being posed all sorts of questions about the state of development and state of the company etc., BioWare chose to release delay information with a solid assurance in the form of a trailer.  Is that really so hard to justify?

You don't want your customers thinking "WTF" because that generates negative buzz.  Get enough negative buzz too early, and you have problems.......

-Polaris

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
A year is a pretty extreme amount to be off by.  Even the most pessimistic estimates here on BSN prior was late spring of 2014.  If you can't figure out why a number of people feel misled (at best) then you have no clue regarding human nature.

I still think this managing of expectations was very poorly handled.

I think this is a good example of why most game companies are hesitant to mention any dates-- because no matter how vague those dates are, how much it's cautioned that such dates are preliminary, or how often games in general have their dates pushed back for any variety of reasons, there are always fans who will treat those dates as ironclad promises and any changing of them as betrayal.

The fact that the date slipped more than some here estimated doesn't mean the original date was any more of a promise than previously. As a word of advice (based on every project I've worked on having slipped its public date at least once), we are always "on track" for release until we're not. Count on it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Anyone who's ever tried to implement a major new system in a corporate environment shouldn't be surprised by a release delay, even one of this size.

I once oversaw a database integration of 5 different departments. Previously, those departments had been served by 4 different systems, and we were going to roll them all into one.

We allowed 7 months to complete the first 4 departments, and figured we'd do the last one by itself because it would be the most challenging.

A year later, the first 2 departments are complete, a third had seen its entire staff resign, and the fourth had just begun preliminary work. And we discovered that the fifth department was never going to work in the first place, so we began building an entirely new system just for them.

We completed all 5 departments 2 years after we started. A 7 month project lasted 24 months.

Delays happen.

[TheBlackAdder13]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
A year is a pretty extreme amount to be off by.  Even the most pessimistic estimates here on BSN prior was late spring of 2014.  If you can't figure out why a number of people feel misled (at best) then you have no clue regarding human nature.

I still think this managing of expectations was very poorly handled.

I think this is a good example of why most game companies are hesitant to mention any dates-- because no matter how vague those dates are, how much it's cautioned that such dates are preliminary, or how often games in general have their dates pushed back for any variety of reasons, there are always fans who will treat those dates as ironclad promises and any changing of them as betrayal.

The fact that the date slipped more than some here estimated doesn't mean the original date was any more of a promise than previously. As a word of advice (based on every project I've worked on having slipped its public date at least once), we are always "on track" for release until we're not. Count on it.

But I think one of the reasons some people feel lied to is because, as recently as a few weeks ago, the higher ups from Bioware were still pushing the targetted for a fall 2013 release date line. The picture that Allan and others have painted so far makes it seem that a fall 2013 release date has completely been out of the question for some time now so persumably they've been repeatedly pushing the fall 2013 target date knowing full well the game wouldn't be out for a long time after that. 

Not that the delay's a bad thing, but I certainly see how people are annoyed and think that they've been lied to. I remember a few months ago you were commenting on the fall 2013 target date telling people not to give their expectations up because it wasn't an offical releae date, just the target, since you were probably anticipating this type of reaction. But the fact of the matter is the higher ups at Bioware are setting themselves up for this kind of negative criticism on the BSN when they keep repeating things they know can't realistically happen. 

It's like Aaron Flynn going around in interviews calling Dragon Age "an open world" game. The more frequent posters here know better but I can only imagine the negative reaction to that when the game comes out -- people will undoubtedly call him a liar. If they want fans to have reasonable expectations, part of the responsiblity is on them not to raise unrealistic expectations. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 14 juin 2013 - 08:57 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

But I think one of the reasons some people feel lied to is because, as recently as a few weeks ago, the higher ups from Bioware were still pushing the targetted for a fall 2013 release date line. The picture that Allan and others have painted so far makes it seem that a fall 2013 release date has completely been out of the question for some time now so persumably they've been repeatedly pushing the fall 2013 target date knowing full well the game wouldn't be out for a long time after that.

Just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would have ensued if, a month ago, BioWare had come out and said, "You know what, that 2013 thing isn't going to happen.  We'll let you know when we have a new release date."

Lying to us for a few weeks (about something largely inconsequential) eliminates that weeks-long period of uncertainty wherein they're no longer in control of the public narrative surrounding their game.  That's a PR nightmare.

[ianvillan]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think the real problem right now is that Bioware has not done a very good job IMHO of managing expectations at least w/r/t DA:I. I could repost the links that Fast Jimmy mentioned, but they speak for themselves. Not only that but while Bioware internally may have known there was significant slippage in the original estimated date, most of the rest of us outside BW did not (althouhg many of us shrewdly guessed that the game was going to have to be delayed well into 2014 because of the lack of information we were getting).

When there is an expectations gap, people are going to get irritated. That should suprise no one.

-Polaris

For me it is the double standards Bioware displays, they say that they cant release any info in case they might change which is fine, but they then release info that they say could change latter i.e. companion armour, the trailer art style both of which I like and I understand that they might change at a latter date, but I am happy to get an idea of Biowares direction for the game even if they change.

They also say they want to show not tell so we should wait for info yet they also tell us of features that will be in the game but don't show us any details about.

Bioware also says they know that they might of not been as clear in DA2s marketing as they should of been and they will try to make sure that when they release info it will be detailed and leave us no questions or be confusing.

I wonder why it is possible to release some features that might totally change latter on like companion armour and art assets yet even a simple question on if Bioware even plans to include the tactical camera from Origins is somehow out of line.

Now I am not saying I want spoilers or full game details but I would like to know what Biowares planed direction of the combat and RPG features of DAI is likely to go, tactical combat and RPG features are something Mike Ladlaw said was important to the game it was one of the main points he laid out in the convention interviews the same as the companion armour was a main feature and they are  something which a lot of fans were upset with yet noting is said about them.

Modifié par ianvillan, 14 juin 2013 - 09:06 .

[Frocharocha]

They said that the engine for the game would be Frostbite 2, which is a very powerful engine, so therefore the entire trailerwas composed of gameplay scenes.

[Ryngard]

I think the issue is that people feel they have an entitlement to know anything. OMFG seriously, some of the posters here are like Dudley Dursley on Christmas or his Birthday (but last year I had 37 presents!).

Bioware: I'll bottom line it for your "normal" fans. You make good games. We want you to continue to make good games. In general we felt let down by DA2 and ME3 (ending at least). Some of the more vocal whiners have taken it to the extreme. Please fix it!

For me, Dragon Age is dang near my favorite game of all time. DA2 was solid for me, yes I cringed at some of the choices (especially reusing maps ugh). But really my biggest gripe is the bugs with the epilogue and save imports.

I'm here to experience your game. You don't owe me anything except a fun adventure tale for my $60 purchase when you release the game. I appreciate what you guys do! Story is what makes a game for me, and in MY opinion, there are no other games out there that do what Bioware does. Like it or not, they have a specific style and I'm just glad they are going to continue our beloved series of adventures in Thedas.

Shame on many of you... acting like spoiled brats.

[Zeldrik1389]

It's kind of funny how people like to use big words like "Betrayal" or the like. To be fair, I don't think any of us fans fully understand how hard it is to make a video games. And, speaking from my own experience, when you work on a big project, things can go wrong in million and one different ways, and date changes are inevitable (I've worked on projects that the finish date had to be pushed back 6 or 7 times because of unforeseen problems). Personally, yes, I'm disappointed because I love DA series, and want to play more as soon as possible. But I understand how difficult it is for them to make it, and make it right. So as long as the final product is good, I don't mind waiting. Just hope that the dev team will give us more details soon, you know, just so we have better ideas about what we're waiting for.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 14 juin 2013 - 09:17 .

[David Gaider]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
Personally, yes, I'm disappointed because I love DA series, and want to play more as soon as possible.

Yep. Disappointment is a perfectly reasonable response-- I'd feel bummed too, if a game I was really looking forward to got bumped out a year. There would be at least ten whole seconds of garment rending before I sighed and moved on with my morning.

But I understand how difficult it is for them to make it, and make it right. So as long as the final product is good, I don't mind waiting. Just hope that the dev team will give us more details soon, you know, just so we have better ideas about what we're waiting for.

I hope so, too. We don't disappoint fans gladly, that's for sure. The only reason we'd do it is because we believed the pain would make you guys happier in the long run. (And I'll try not to think of the sadomasochistic element of our relationship implied by that statement.)

[ianvillan]

Filament wrote...

Just because, at some point, Fall 2013 became out of the question, does not mean that they were just going to tell us as soon as that became clear to them. Unrestricted flow of information from any company about their development processes is not an expectation anyone can reasonably hold (as Sylvius points out, it can be really bad PR). It became clear that they'd have to delay it and then they decided they'd announce the delay at E3. It's really as simple as that. Feeling lied to about it IMO is the result of failing to appreciate the actual meaning of such statements considering their source, and temper one's own expectations appropriately.

I am happy about the delay because it means more time to develop the game what gets me is them saying that when they do decide to release information it will be detailed and not leave us any questions.

Mainly it is asking questions about features of the game that Bioware itself said were some of the main complaints and that they were the features they were most looking at but being told constantly we cant say anything yet about them but when do it will be big and leave you with no questions or confusion.
 
But then they release a teaser trailer which was made to be confusing and then Bioware says have this trailer for your answers and don't ask anymore questions.

[Senya]

David Gaider wrote...

(And I'll try not to think of the sadomasochistic element of our relationship implied by that statement.)

(Zevran Approves +10)

We understand, David. We all want a good game.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 14 juin 2013 - 09:23 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Filament wrote...

Just because, at some point, Fall 2013 became out of the question, does not mean that they were just going to tell us as soon as that became clear to them. Unrestricted flow of information from any company about their development processes is not an expectation anyone can reasonably hold (as Sylvius points out, it can be really bad PR). It became clear that they'd have to delay it and then they decided they'd announce the delay at E3. It's really as simple as that. Feeling lied to about it IMO is the result of failing to appreciate the actual meaning of such statements considering their source, and temper one's own expectations appropriately.

Unless they legitimately had no idea that they could have the release date pushed back last April, then they were reaffirming the fall 2013 target date via tweets when they knew the deadline had been pushed back (and based on the picture others have painted, they surely must have known then).

As I explained in my previous post, it's not a matter of telling us that the release date was pushed back right away, there's no reason or obligation or them to do so; it's a matter of actively reaffirming the target release date knowing full well it couldn't/wouldn't happen anymore. If they're deliberately reaffirming dated/incorrect information, then part of the responsiblity is on them for building up expectations. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 14 juin 2013 - 09:26 .