240 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Really?  I had far more of a problem with Commander SHepard in ME3, Especially that stupid breath scene.

The breath scene doesn't bother me because we have two hypothetical scenarios:

1) Shepard dies- story concluded

2) Shepard lives- in which case, he's like every Warden where we can go off and imagine him doing whatever we want: politics, smuggling, a galaxy frontiersman, having blue babies with his LI, etc, and without contradiction since it's extremely unlikely that Bioware will want to explore any of those post-ME3 settings...I hope.

I likened the ELuvian (as well as all the other scenes where the Warden survived) with being more like Return of the Jedi.  Yeah, not all the galaxy's problems are solved, but look there's a reunion, happiness, and for now all is well.

I'd say it's a pretty weak comparison. Return of the Jedi ends with pretty much every plot thread concluded, all the way through which it opened up. All villains dead, battles won, tears wept, and an ending feast. Return of the Jedi doesn't end with Luke Skywalker learning that the Emperor is secretly alive with a dangerous new force capable of destroying the Star Wars universe. Of course, even if RotJ did end this way, we likely wouldn't be worried about writers off-paneling Luke Skywalker because players are worried about inaccuracies.

I'm not saying the Warden should be the main protagonist for whatever plot threads are explored between Morrigan and company. I'm not even saying he needs to be a main character. But he's been involved in important plotlines. And he started these plot threads. He's invested in these events that he's not going to pick up and leave.

The Calling is pretty much inevitable.  Just because I don't want to witness it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's coming.  What I am saying is that it's entirely possible, heck I'd say likely, that the OGB won't emerge until after the Warden's death.  Perhaps Morrigan's as well.

Well, you don't have to witness it, especially since that requires modeling the Warden, which again seems to be a huge no-no. But it does get rid of the Warden from the story in a manner that is not contrived, since it was established long before the OGB even existed. I'd rather hear my Warden succumbed to his Calling than headcanon that he's playing pool in a tavern somewhere.  At least that way, there's no eyebrow raising over why he's not helping stop our next world-rending crisis.

Again, not seeing it.  In fact I'd say Alistair-romancing Wardens have better cause for complaint.  Particularly those with Queen Wardens

Alistair with Queen Wardens aren't indicated to be important to the overarching plot of Dragon Age. The key difference is that going beyond the Eluvian places the Warden in the middle of a new conflict: what are we going to do about Flemeth? What are we going to do about this child? What is Morrigan's plan? PC control or not, he's a character in the story and he's going to have input on all these things, much like when he was involved during the Fifth Blight. That could mean: modifying Morrigan's plan, going against Morrigan's plan, raising the child, etc, etc. And since these plot threads will be picked up again, the input of this guy is critical.

There is no complaint to be had for a female Warden romancing Alistair. Imagine whatever you want: dealing with political intrigue, assassinations, a long and prosperous happy kingdom. When Bioware indicates that they're going to explore plotlines dealing with Ferelden rulers, then we can worry about whether the Warden himself is involved. Hence why none of those plot threads are a problem. Not to mention, OGB + Flemeth is more epic in scope than the Fifth Blight, where as whatever kingdom problems a female Warden deals with is likely to be less epic.

Well, Owen Lars didn't really play much of a role in Star Wars... 

Owen Lars didn't have much an influence on anything. But I mean, if we're cool burning the Warden/Morrigan like we did Owen...well, it does get them out of the story. I could see them being off-paneled Sarevok-style. At the least, this would give the new threat credibility since anything strong enough to take out the Warden + Morrigan together is not to be trifled with.

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The Elder Scrolls are games that are set a hundred or more years apart.  Dragon Age is a series about specific events coming one after another that carries out a larger story.

Sure, and it's referred to as a series. The key indicator here being that a series does not mean "same protagonist throughout". Hell, Bioshock is referred to as a series and those three games have very odd connections.

Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Film_series

It even lists there being 2 film series, hence the KotOR point.

Star Wars?  How did the main protagonist, Luke Skywalker not appear in all three movies?

Well, much as people like to forget, there was a prequel trilogy.

Fallout is a series? I only played the last one and thought it was a reboot of an older PC game.  And besides, when Bethesda makes a game it is truly about the world that you're in.  They make open sand boxes where you can pick and choose your own adventures.  Bioware doesn't make games that are sand boxes, nor do I want them to because they have their own nich of games that I enjoy for themselves.

Ayep. Four games, none of them are reboots of each other. It's not relevant what kind of games Bioware makes or what our favorite aspects of them are. Strictly speaking, do we have any evidence that series means same protagonist across every installment? That is the key idea.

Because otherwise, if Dragon Age is a series, Bioshock is a series, Assassin's Creed is a series, and TES/Fallout is a series, clearly the term is referring to something which they all have in common. And what they all have in common is not a singular protagonist. All series really indicates is that all installments have some kind of connection to each other, it does not necessitate what that connection is.

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 juin 2013 - 07:01 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

The breath scene doesn't bother me because we have two hypothetical scenarios:

1) Shepard dies- story concluded

2) Shepard lives- in which case, he's like every Warden where we can go off and imagine him doing whatever we want: politics, smuggling, a galaxy frontiersman, having blue babies with his LI, etc, and without contradiction since it's extremely unlikely that Bioware will want to explore any of those post-ME3 settings...I hope. [/quote]

And it's that uncertainty whcih is which that drives me (and others) nuts.

Beyond the Eluvian, the Warden is alive, with Morrigan, and with his child.  Until Bioware is willing to address the OGB, does anything else really matter?

[quote]

I'd say it's a pretty weak comparison. Return of the Jedi ends with pretty much every plot thread concluded, all the way through which it opened up. All villains dead, battles won, tears wept, and an ending feast. Return of the Jedi doesn't end with Luke Skywalker learning that the Emperor is secretly alive with a dangerous new force capable of destroying the Star Wars universe. Of course, even if RotJ did end this way, we likely wouldn't be worried about writers off-paneling Luke Skywalker because players are worried about inaccuracies.  [/quote]

That's just it, not all villains are dead.  The Rebel Alliance was dealing with a galaxy-spanning Empire.  Who succeeds the Emperor and Vader now?  Heck the EU has spent decades of continued fights between the Empire and the New Republic.  But those are different stories.  


[quote]
Well, you don't have to witness it, especially since that requires modeling the Warden, which again seems to be a huge no-no. But it does get rid of the Warden from the story in a manner that is not contrived, since it was established long before the OGB even existed. I'd rather hear my Warden succumbed to his Calling than headcanon that he's playing pool in a tavern somewhere.  At least that way, there's no eyebrow raising over why he's not helping stop our next world-rending crisis. [/quote]

And I'm willng to bet that the OGB will not make an appearance until after the Warden is gone, one way or another.  Particularly since the OGB could very well:

Be Alistair's child rather than the Warden's,
Not have been raised by the Warden,
Be entirely human/half-dwarf, rather than an OGB
May not even exist.

[quote]

There is no complaint to be had for a female Warden romancing Alistair. Imagine whatever you want: dealing with political intrigue, assassinations, a long and prosperous happy kingdom. When Bioware indicates that they're going to explore plotlines dealing with Ferelden rulers, then we can worry about whether the Warden himself is involved. Hence why none of those plot threads are a problem. Not to mention, OGB + Flemeth is more epic in scope than the Fifth Blight, where as whatever kingdom problems a female Warden deals with is likely to be less epic. 

It only puts the Warden in the middle of a conflict if the conflict occurs within the Warden's lifetime.  Queen Wardens are based in Ferelden and are very public figures in teh "here and now".  Her diappearance leaves a far bigger hole than those who wander Thedas looking fro adventure.


[quote]
Owen Lars didn't have much an influence on anything. But I mean, if we're cool burning the Warden/Morrigan like we did Owen...well, it does get them out of the story. I could see them being off-paneled Sarevok-style. At the least, this would give the new threat credibility since anything strong enough to take out the Warden + Morrigan together is not to be trifled with. 
[/quote]

The point being, that Luke didn't leave Tatooine until after his family was gone.

[lecho_himself]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

No, it became complicated when gamers were given a choice to accept Morrigan's proposal and live, or decline it and die or have Alistair or Logahin die and therefore you live.  Bottom line,  allowing your Warden to live is what complicated a series that seemed to be in a specific time period where your Warden is still out there.  People are loyal to their characters that they created; especiallly in Bioware games.

There is no problem with the original DA: O ending. The Warden can be alive and doing whatever Wardens do after they stop the Blight - offscreen. What for me causes the problem is the Witch Hunt DLC which involves the Warden into a story possibly having something to do with DA: I. Same goes for Hawke, it's okay for me to think that he lives his comfy life with Merril in their estate. But here goes Cassandra, her searching for Hawke and her involvement in DA: I.

Two games, two protagonists, both concluded with two unnecessary questions asked that are likely not going to be answered in game number there.

And yes, I am loyal to my Warden and Hawke, but not the way I was loyal to Shepard; I can accept new protagonist with no problem as long as BioWare wont mess up with previous stories. Both Witch Hunt and DA2 (whats the point of Leliana's cameo?!) ending are doing the messing tho.

Modifié par lecho_himself, 15 juin 2013 - 07:36 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

And it's that uncertainty whcih is which that drives me (and others) nuts.

Beyond the Eluvian, the Warden is alive, with Morrigan, and with his child.  Until Bioware is willing to address the OGB, does anything else really matter?

Well, when you consider the sheer amount of debate regarding Flemeth and the OGB, yeah I would say it matters. I went down the OGB/Eluvian route precisely because of its intriguing implications for the overarching story, which I wanted to see through, whether as the Warden or another character. I can't say the same for any of my other characters, Shepard included.

That's just it, not all villains are dead.  The Rebel Alliance was dealing with a galaxy-spanning Empire.  Who succeeds the Emperor and Vader now?  Heck the EU has spent decades of continued fights between the Empire and the New Republic.  But those are different stories.  

I'm aware of the EU, which is important only if we're dealing with the EU. The Star Wars film trilogy itself is self-contained (thankfully, given how terrible most EU material is). Even ignoring this, the two scenarios still are not equivalent. Post RotJ, would be the equivalent of Luke cleaning up spilled milk. The Thedas plotline is said to change the entire world.

RoftJ ends on a pure high note: celebration and resolution. It doesn't ask: "how are we going to deal with threat X". Witch Hunt ends with a foretelling of Thedas' fate, the nature of Flemeth, and the Warden joining with Morrigan in somehow dealing with all this crazy stuff going on. That's a terrible ending.

And I'm willng to bet that the OGB will not make an appearance until after the Warden is gone, one way or another.  Particularly since the OGB could very well:

Be Alistair's child rather than the Warden's,
Not have been raised by the Warden,
Be entirely human/half-dwarf, rather than an OGB
May not even exist.

Well, fingers crossed they go down this route. I'm not willing to bet on it, since the OGB is such a wild card (we know nothing about it) that there's not telling if its role will begin as a child. It wouldn't be the first child prophecy story out there. But it's more acceptable than another mysterious disappearance.

It only puts the Warden in the middle of a conflict if the conflict occurs within the Warden's lifetime.  Queen Wardens are based in Ferelden and are very public figures in teh "here and now".  Her diappearance leaves a far bigger hole than those who wander Thedas looking fro adventure.

Key phrase: For Ferelden. The OGB, Flemeth, Morrigan, and the Warden are based around all of Thedas. I'm inclined to say the latter trumps the former in narrative importance/implications.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 juin 2013 - 07:54 .

[Abraham_uk]

 DA3 Protagonist: So what exactly have Hawke and the Grey Warden been doing?

Bartender: I hear that they have both been fighting dragons. But that's just hearsay.

DA3 Protagonist: Well, that's a shame. I was hoping to meet them.

[Shelondias]

If it can be done then I don't see why not.
Could be interesting.

[The Spirit of Dance]

Is it possible? yes. Is it likely to happen? probably not.

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Because otherwise, if Dragon Age is a series, Bioshock is a series, Assassin's Creed is a series, and TES/Fallout is a series, clearly the term is referring to something which they all have in common. And what they all have in common is not a singular protagonist. All series really indicates is that all installments have some kind of connection to each other, it does not necessitate what that connection is.

The Bioshock series (debatable) is connected on "alternate realities"?, as described in "Infinite", hence not having the need to use the same protagonist?, although I never played the first two.  Assassin's Creed is a series because it a continuation of a larger storyline told through many stories through a period of a thousand years.  If DA2 started three hundered years after Origins, no one would be complaining.  And AC did use the same protagonist through three of its five games so far.  Remember, to be a series it needs a connection.  The first protagonist died, but his descendents three hundred years later is where they picked the story up again.  And I never said that TES wasn't a series, just that the world in which stories live in are set a hundred to two hundered years apart and hence the reason for not using the same protagonists. But TES are a different type of series in that all those stories are laid out in each seperate game for you to use or not use. The stories or characters don't connect the TES series, but in DA they do.  Which is why Bioware is making a mistake by ignoring an import character that is stil out there while all these events are unfolding.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 15 juin 2013 - 09:21 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Is Final Fantasy really a series? If you mean different altered versions of the same story and the same characters told over and over again, then I suppose so. Final Fantasy is the only series I know that reboots itself for every game. I stopped playing at 11. Is that the kind of series Dragon Age wants to be?

[Sylvianus]

[dp]

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2013 - 10:33 .

[Sylvianus]

Il Divo wrote...

lecho_himself wrote...

I've read all pages of this thread and a conclusion come up to my mind:

BioWare complicated the situation with Witch Hunt DLC. Without it, the Warden story would truly be OVER and player will think of him that he settled down somewhere and went off the radar. Simple.

For me, all this "search for Morrigan" thing was unnecessary. And with Morrigan returning for DA3 WITHOUT Warden who, for many of the gamers, has a child with her and went thru Eluvian, it becomes nonsense that pisses them off.

Im okay with Morrigan disappearing after DA: O with probably my Warden's child and leaving the Warden behind. That was the deal. Im also okay with her returning for DA3. The thing Im not okay with is giving player
the opportuninty to go after her - presumably, to be with her - to stillgot excluded from the plot. No Witch Hunt DLC - no problem.

Same goes for DA2 and unnecessary Leliana outro appearance. Why search for Warden and Hawke and conclude a game that way if they are not to be found for DA3? For me it's a simple lack of consequence... or BioWare's masterplan to surprise the gamers.

Well said. If we're done with Hawke and the Warden, stop involving them in the story, in epic/mysterious ways. It only makes for a bigger let down when these characters are built as larger than life, only to be awkwardly put asidebecause Bioware doesn't want to mess with people's perceptions of these characters. It's the build-up that's the problem.  

+1 to both of you. Damnit Bioware.

I've totally forgotten DAII's ending by the way.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 juin 2013 - 10:36 .

[ShaggyWolf]

I think it would be sick if Hawke and the Warden showed up as temporary playable protagonists for specific parts of the story. Kind of like how you get to play Altair for a short scene in AC2, except ideally, these segments would be longer and more interactive. Like you finish a major part of the story as the inquisitor, the main protaonist, and then the narrative cuts to a different part of the world where the Warden is doing something.

A challenge to do, I know, but it'd be sweet.

Ultimately, I want to know what happened to my Warden, at least. I think it would be wierd for Morrigan to show up and not my character, since the last I saw they were together, but honestly, I'd rather they avoid a cameo since unless they do something awesome like what I outlined above, it'd have more potential to upset me more than anything else.

That said, I'll just wait and see. Still stoked for the game, regardless.

[Jerrybnsn]

Agree on the no cameo. It's either a playable Warden, where we get to decide what they do and say, or nothing at all. And the problem with nothing at all, is the overall wondering on why your Warden is just sitting this major conflict out.

[Thetford]

The only way I can see it happening is either using the portrait of the Warden from DAO and having that as a painting and have others from the game talk about them (either at a funeral or memorial), or have the game search for race, gender, skin colour, hair colour and possibly hairstyle and have a muted cameo from behind.

[OzzyMcRcky]

If we consider the announcement of The Keep, it makes the possibility far more likely! Especially if there is a character creator in it OR the ability to import the characters from the Bioware Social.