240 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

It is absolutely a sensible criticism.  Because we are talking about two different stories. 

Your criticism was that the Warden "is somewhere else". That doesn't necessarily indicate different stories, which was specifically what I was responding to. Characters are always in different locations at different points of a story.

 The Warden's was about the Fifth Blight.  The Inquisitor's is about the mage/templar war and its fallout.  They just happen to both be set on Thedas.

And then it (potentially) became about his involvement with the Old God child he managed to foster with Morrigan and help raise, while finding a method to combat Flemeth. One story ended, another began.

If the Inquisitor's story is confined to the Mage/Templar war, which is doubtful, that's fine. But if Bioware expects to start pulling elements of the OGB, Morrigan, Armageddon, and Flemeth into there story, they're likely going to come up with some crack pot explanation for why the Warden isn't present, which is something I'm expecting. But I'm guessing "the Warden died" isn't good enough for most people, given ME3's Shepard.

See, that's where I see things differently.  The Warden gallivanting off with a LI, or with some new cause, or even staying with the Grey Wardens are also premises for new adventures.  Going off with Morrigna is hardly unique in that regard.  Heck I'll bet there are thousands of fanfictions out there chronicling the further adventures of assorted Heroes of Ferelden.  Including Wardens who didn't pass beyond the Eluvian.    

Only if we're saying "Hey, they're both LIs, so it's the same thing", which is hardly an accurate portrayal. Wardens who chose all those other endings, which actually conclude their story, are free of plot obligations. And as I pointed out in my previous posts, none of those stories have been given an inherent relevance yet in the DA universe. Since DA:O's ending, the question of the relationship between Morrigan, Flemeth, and the OGB has always been of a higher relevance. The Warden was a major player in setting up all these things and now has been tossed back in the thick of things.

Now, if Bioware suddenly decides that their next game is going to be set in Antiva and will have Zevran as the co-star stopping Armageddon, then I'm going to start asking questions again about why all Wardens gallivanting with Zevran do not have some involvement in the main plot, especially if it's hinted at that the Warden himself knows that events of enormous gravity will be happening there.

In fact, what makes the OGB more relevant to the Warden beyond the Eluvian than an OGB fathered by Alistair?  Or by the Warden who stayed on Thedas?

What makes the OGB more relevant? The fact that the Warden is there with him and responsible for his existence, whether as the actual father or as the guy who pushed the idea. Hence my point that you're placing a character (the Warden) with a well-established pattern of changing nations and becoming involved in saving the world in very close proximity to other characters (OGB, Morrigan, Flemeth) who are going to play a great role at some point in Dragon Age. Morrigan is potentially your LI and hints at some plan for the future. The OGB is potentially your child and (very likely) an extremely powerful entity, who has some link to Flemeth, as the Ritual was her idea.

You're expecting the writers to place the Warden in this context, find an excuse to toss the Warden out the window, and still act like everything's normal, merely because the Warden can be in a love shack with Zevran in Antiva. The two scenarios are not even remotely equivalent, beyond the Warden being with his LI.

Sure.  And at some point I expect it will be addressed.  But I don't think it will necessitate the Warden's involvement.  The Warden's story is linked to the OGB, but they are not the same story.

Which can be used to shoehorn in any character into or out of a story. Shoehorn does not mean "sensibly write a character out of a story in a manner which fits their role in the story". The term has a negative connotation because it implies the writers are doing something without the express interest of the narrative they've created at heart.

I find this to me a better argument to keep the Warden away from the story. Since it would necessitate one of two things:

1) The Warden apears and solves everything, but this god-like darkspawn slaying machine.
 Or
2) The Warden proves incapable of dealing with whatever, necessiting aid, rescuing, or just plain dies.

One basically takes the story away from the current player and givs it to an NPC.  The other would have players howling how thier awesome former character was "ruined"

You are aware of the complaints surrounding Revan in SWTOR, yes?

And I find it to be an argument to have kept the Warden away from the Eluvian. Then, everyone could have won, and it would never have been a problem. No worries about ruining people's characters, and Bioware can avoid creating an artificial explanation to write the Warden out of the story, since he's now far and away from all plot relevant characters. Whatever Morrigan or Flemeth are up to, the Warden has no way of knowing or becoming involved in any capacity. To some extent, because he/she chose to walk away.

To address the two scenarios however:

1) If the story has been built up in such a fashion that logically the Warden could handle the threat all by his lonesome, Bioware gave themselves a problem to begin with.

2) It would not be the first time a protagonist needed to enlist aid. See the basic premise of DA:O, acquire an army.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 juin 2013 - 07:05 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Your criticism was that the Warden "is somewhere else". That doesn't necessarily indicate different stories, which was specifically what I was responding to. Characters are always in different locations at different points of a story.

Then I phrased it poorly.  But the fact, is, the Warden's story was that of the Fifth Blight.  It's over.  The Warden has moved on.  Different story.

And then it (potentially) became about his involvement with the Old God child he managed to foster with Morrigan and help raise, while finding a method to combat Flemeth. One story ended, another began.

And if such a story were to be told, I'd hope that we would be the Warden again, not have said Warden be an NPC.  But that is unlikely to happen, so I'd rather just leave the Warden out if it.

If the Inquisitor's story is confined to the Mage/Templar war, which is doubtful, that's fine. But if Bioware expects to start pulling elements of the OGB, Morrigan, Armageddon, and Flemeth into there story, they're likely going to come up with some crack pot explanation for why the Warden isn't present, which is something I'm expecting. But I'm guessing "the Warden died" isn't good enough for most people, given ME3's Shepard.

And where are the elements of the OGB or Flemeth here?  The fact that Morrigan is doing the narrating is the only hint she'll have a role to play at all, let alone a major role.  The whole apocalyptic scenerio is, to me, the only viable arguement I see that the Warden should make an appearance at all.

And yes, "The Warden died" would likely be an outrage as bad as Bioware mishandling the Warden.

Only if we're saying "Hey, they're both LIs, so it's the same thing", which is hardly an accurate portrayal. Wardens who chose all those other endings, which actually conclude their story, are free of plot obligations. And as I pointed out in my previous posts, none of those stories have been given an inherent relevance yet in the DA universe. Since DA:O's ending, the question of the relationship between Morrigan, Flemeth, and the OGB has always been of a higher relevance. The Warden was a major player in setting up all these things and now has been tossed back in the thick of things.

The Warden has 20-30 years to live, tops.  Barring some way to further slow/end the darkspawn taint.  Nothing says the OGB has to become active in Thedas before the Warden's Calling.  The Warden doesn't have to be a plot obligation or be relevant to the OGB (though if for some reason he is, I would want to play that part myself, as I said).  So in a sense, yeah, in a sense, it is the same thing.

Sure.  And at some point I expect it will be addressed.  But I don't think it will necessitate the Warden's involvement.  The Warden's story is linked to the OGB, but they are not the same story.

Which can be used to shoehorn in any character into or out of a story. Shoehorn does not mean "sensibly write a character out of a story in a manner which fits their role in the story". The term has a negative connotation because it implies the writers are doing something without the express interest of the narrative they've created at heart.

And I find it to be an argument to have kept the Warden away from the Eluvian. Then, everyone could have won, and it would never have been a problem. No worries about ruining people's characters, and Bioware can avoid creating an artificial explanation to write the Warden out of the story, since he's now far and away from all plot relevant characters. Whatever Morrigan or Flemeth are up to, the Warden has no way of knowing or becoming involved in any capacity. To some extent, because he/she chose to walk away.

It sounds like you're advocating, after making a bad bet, to simply double down rather than cutting your losses. Given the taint all Wardens carry, it would be very easy to write the Warden out of the story simply by running out the clock.

[lecho_himself]

I've read all pages of this thread and a conclusion come up to my mind:

BioWare complicated the situation with Witch Hunt DLC. Without it, the Warden story would truly be OVER and player will think of him that he settled down somewhere and went off the radar. Simple.

For me, all this "search for Morrigan" thing was unnecessary. And with Morrigan returning for DA3 WITHOUT Warden who, for many of the gamers, has a child with her and went thru Eluvian, it becomes nonsense that pisses them off.

Im okay with Morrigan disappearing after DA: O with probably my Warden's child and leaving the Warden behind. That was the deal. Im also okay with her returning for DA3. The thing Im not okay with is giving player the opportuninty to go after her - presumably, to be with her - to still got excluded from the plot.

No Witch Hunt DLC - no problem.

Same goes for DA2 and unnecessary Leliana outro appearance. Why search for Warden and Hawke and conclude a game that way if they are not to be found for DA3? For me it's a simple lack of consequence... or BioWare's masterplan to surprise the gamers.

Modifié par lecho_himself, 15 juin 2013 - 08:40 .

[Rixatrix]

lecho_himself wrote...
Im okay with Morrigan disappearing after DA: O with probably my Warden's child and leaving the Warden behind. That was the deal. Im also okay with her returning for DA3. The thing Im not okay with is giving player the opportuninty to go after her - presumably, to be with her - to still got excluded from the plot.

No Witch Hunt DLC - no problem.

Same goes for DA2 and unnecessary Leliana outro appearance. Why search for Warden and Hawke and conclude a game that way if they are not to be found for DA3? For me it's a simple lack of consequence... or BioWare's masterplan to surprise the gamers.

Good points.  I thought about this and came to a similar conclusion.  I wanted to say that while I would like to see/hear about my warden and Hawke again somehow, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker to limit it to a minor codex mention.

However, considering the end of DA2, it's really difficult to say they're irrelevant for DA:I, when the game ended on a question about them.  If they had just been left alone, it wouldn't have merited further examination imho, but bringing them up in the context of a mystery bears further investigation in the next game.

[lecho_himself]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Good points.  I thought about this and came to a similar conclusion.  I wanted to say that while I would like to see/hear about my warden and Hawke again somehow, it wouldn't be a dealbreaker to limit it to a minor codex mention.

However, considering the end of DA2, it's really difficult to say they're irrelevant for DA:I, when the game ended on a question about them.  If they had just been left alone, it wouldn't have merited further examination imho, but bringing them up in the context of a mystery bears further investigation in the next game.

Exactly! Why ask questions that are not going to be answered?

Modifié par lecho_himself, 15 juin 2013 - 10:55 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

And if such a story were to be told, I'd hope that we would be the Warden again, not have said Warden be an NPC.  But that is unlikely to happen, so I'd rather just leave the Warden out if it.

Hence why I keep saying the ideal scenario is not passing through the Eluvian. I'm not the type to become obsessed with playing one character for an entire series, but the way they leave the Warden's story off is more annoying than any other ending to a choice-based RPG I've ever played, KotOR 2 included.

As I said, the Warden is a character. And good writing translates across different mediums. Accepting that you don't want your Warden damaged by Bioware doesn't mean it won't be an awkward transition that they suddenly cut out a major plot character who by all indications is still relevant.

It's the difference between how A New Hope ends vs. Empire Strikes back. The first feels like a decent stopping point while the second leaves the viewer saying : "Crap, I can't wait to see what happens next!".

And where are the elements of the OGB or Flemeth here?  The fact that Morrigan is doing the narrating is the only hint she'll have a role to play at all, let alone a major role.  The whole apocalyptic scenerio is, to me, the only viable arguement I see that the Warden should make an appearance at all.

I addressed this a few times before. If you're saying we don't need the Warden because none of those characters are involved in this particular story, fine. But at some point, they will be. This is as good a time as any to explore this issue.

Yes, there is nothing necessitating any of these characters' involvements. But there's nothing preventing it either, especially since the scale of this threat seems to go far beyond DA2's Kirkwall conflict. If Bioware keeps these major players out of the picture, fine we don't need the Warden...yet. But then, we'll be talking about this in DA:4 or DA:17, when Bioware finally does decide to resolve this issue. It's only a matter of when we talk about it, not if.

The Warden has 20-30 years to live, tops.  Barring some way to further slow/end the darkspawn taint.  Nothing says the OGB has to become active in Thedas before the Warden's Calling.  The Warden doesn't have to be a plot obligation or be relevant to the OGB (though if for some reason he is, I would want to play that part myself, as I said).  So in a sense, yeah, in a sense, it is the same thing.

Wasn't it you who above was just arguing against this very thing? I mean, if you want to run the clock out on the Warden's Calling, I'm perfectly fine with that. It was a concept established back in DA:O that your character is living on borrowed time until he becomes a darkspawn, so it would probably be the most sensible way to get rid of the Warden without establishing an awkward excuse for why you're not around. But then, that might mess with some people's immortal image of the Warden, where he can do no wrong and is indestructible, which is itself frustrating.

And yes, I would want to play the Warden's role myself as well. That's what makes the Eluvian ending so frustrating. Bioware keeps reiterating this "Warden's story is done", while tossing a few Wardens into a context where they would most want to continue their story to see how events unfold in Thedas. This doesn't happen for other Wardens

It sounds like you're advocating, after making a bad bet, to simply double down rather than cutting your losses. Given the taint all Wardens carry, it would be very easy to write the Warden out of the story simply by running out the clock.

Well, not exactly. To keep the analogy going, it's more I want you to acknowledge that Bioware made a bad bet in the first place. When you say "The Warden's story finished with the Fifth Blight", that implies that there's been nothing wrong with how they handle the Warden, because they finished one story involving him. The thing is, they chose to launch him into another. From a writing perspective, even if not a main character, any audience would expect him to play a large role in events, hence why dropping him will be awkward regardless.

I'm fine with cutting losses, using some ham-fisted excuse to remove the Warden from the events of the series. But that does acknowledge that they will use a ham-fisted excuse, unless they go the Calling route, which will still require that Bioware explain to players what their Warden did spend their time doing with Morrigan beyond the Eluvian, or his attitude in raising his child.

[Il Divo]

lecho_himself wrote...

I've read all pages of this thread and a conclusion come up to my mind:

BioWare complicated the situation with Witch Hunt DLC. Without it, the Warden story would truly be OVER and player will think of him that he settled down somewhere and went off the radar. Simple.

For me, all this "search for Morrigan" thing was unnecessary. And with Morrigan returning for DA3 WITHOUT Warden who, for many of the gamers, has a child with her and went thru Eluvian, it becomes nonsense that pisses them off.

Im okay with Morrigan disappearing after DA: O with probably my Warden's child and leaving the Warden behind. That was the deal. Im also okay with her returning for DA3. The thing Im not okay with is giving player the opportuninty to go after her - presumably, to be with her - to still got excluded from the plot.

No Witch Hunt DLC - no problem.

Same goes for DA2 and unnecessary Leliana outro appearance. Why search for Warden and Hawke and conclude a game that way if they are not to be found for DA3? For me it's a simple lack of consequence... or BioWare's masterplan to surprise the gamers.

Well said.

If we're done with Hawke and the Warden, stop involving them in the story, in epic/mysterious ways. It only makes for a bigger let down when these characters are built as larger than life, only to be awkwardly put aside because Bioware doesn't want to mess with people's perceptions of these characters. It's the build-up that's the problem.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 juin 2013 - 12:56 .

[Corbinus]

Honestly, I don't know. It would be great to see Warden again. On the other hand, we have already seen what happens with PC when Bioware takes control of them - they got royally screwed up. Just remember Revan and the Exile.

I better learn nothing about my Warden, then learn that he followed Morrigan into the mirror only to be killed by Flemeth off-screen. Or to die of taint.

[Jerrybnsn]

Dovaaa wrote...

I think it's very possible. Looking at the trailer it looks like the Seekers are declaring war on the Wardens. Your Warden is a Warden obviously, so I'm pretty sure your gonna see the Warden.

????? You came away with that from the trailer?  Well, if it is so, then it would be a major flub on bioware's part to have Thee most important Warden in Thedas have no appearance or influnce on this event.  Arrrgh.  Why didn't they just stick with Origins' Warden and continue the  "epic" series from there?  I don't want to start from scratch with a new character and have to interact with the storyline and former characters like a newbie again.  This series had so much potential to follow Baldur's Gate footsteps where you had four games out of that series.


edit:  I mean, you can't be playing the discovery of a hero plotline every Dragon Age game if this is truly a series.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 15 juin 2013 - 02:48 .

[Jerrybnsn]

lecho_himself wrote...


BioWare complicated the situation with Witch Hunt DLC. Without it, the Warden story would truly be OVER and player will think of him that he settled down somewhere and went off the radar. Simple.

No, it became complicated when gamers were given a choice to accept Morrigan's proposal and live, or decline it and die or have Alistair or Logahin die and therefore you live.  Bottom line,  allowing your Warden to live is what complicated a series that seemed to be in a specific time period where your Warden is still out there.  People are loyal to their characters that they created; especiallly in Bioware games.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 15 juin 2013 - 02:47 .

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

edit:  I mean, you can't be playing the discovery of a hero plotline every Dragon Age game if this is truly a series.

Then what would you like to call it?

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

edit:  I mean, you can't be playing the discovery of a hero plotline every Dragon Age game if this is truly a series.

Then what would you like to call it?

After playing the games and reading all the books, there is a definite major storyline being played out through a series of events.  So the Dragon Age games are a series.

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

edit:  I mean, you can't be playing the discovery of a hero plotline every Dragon Age game if this is truly a series.

Then what would you like to call it?

After playing the games and reading all the books, there is a definite major storyline being played out through a series of events.  So the Dragon Age games are a series.

Then I'm not sure I see the problem with continuing with different protagonists each game. Dragon Age remains a series whether the Warden is alive and involved or not.

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 juin 2013 - 02:58 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Corbinus wrote...

............ we have already seen what happens with PC when Bioware takes control of them - they got royally screwed up. Just remember Revan and the Exile.

I better learn nothing about my Warden, then learn that he followed Morrigan into the mirror only to be killed by Flemeth off-screen. Or to die of taint.

Having your Warden become a NPC or just a simple codex explain their lack of appearance is not what I want at all.  I just simply want to keep my Warden and progress through the series as the hero instead of accepting another predetermined "Hawke".

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

After playing the games and reading all the books, there is a definite major storyline being played out through a series of events.  So the Dragon Age games are a series.

Then I'm not sure I see the problem with continuing with different protagonists each game. Dragon Age remains a series whether the Warden is alive and involved or not.

What other series do you know in books, movies, or video games that uses different protagonists? 

[Jerrybnsn]

comment removed by op.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 15 juin 2013 - 03:26 .

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

After playing the games and reading all the books, there is a definite major storyline being played out through a series of events.  So the Dragon Age games are a series.

Then I'm not sure I see the problem with continuing with different protagonists each game. Dragon Age remains a series whether the Warden is alive and involved or not.

What other series do you know in books, movies, or video games that uses different protagonists? 

Elder Scrolls? Star Wars? Knights of the Old Republic? Neverwinter Nights? Avatar: The Last Airbender? Fallout? A Song of Ice and Fire? Final Fantasy?

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 juin 2013 - 03:18 .

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

tick, tick, tick, tick, tick..........

Bit of a recommendation for you. The forums aren't my entire life. If I don't respond within three seconds of your post, don't assume it's because I don't have a counter-response.

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

What other series do you know in books, movies, or video games that uses different protagonists? 

Elder Scrolls? Star Wars? Knights of the Old Republic? Neverwinter Nights? Avatar: The Last Airbender? Fallout? A Song of Ice and Fire? Final Fantasy?

The Elder Scrolls are games that are set a hundred or more years apart.  Dragon Age is a series about specific events coming one after another that carries out a larger story.

Star Wars?  How did the main protagonist, Luke Skywalker not appear in all three movies?

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

tick, tick, tick, tick, tick..........

Bit of a recommendation for you. The forums aren't my entire life. If I don't respond within three seconds of your post, don't assume it's because I don't have a counter-response.

Then I'll withdraw my comment.

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

[What other series do you know in books, movies, or video games that uses different protagonists? 

 Avatar: The Last Airbender? 

The Avatar is always in every episode, even if the writers sometimes focus on one of the other characters.  But there is no doubt that Ang is the main protagonist that carries the plotline all the way through the three books of Water, Earth and Fire.

To compare what they have done with the Warden for the Avatar would be...one of the off characters, say Suko, meets up with some nameless person, and that said nameless person just runs a bunch of errands for people....then that leads to the next book where another nameless person is met by another on from the first book, say Appa,  and is given a mission to stop something from the last  book......meanwhile, people are wondering to what happened to the Avatar and the whole reestablishing the balance of all four elements.

[Jerrybnsn]

Fallout is a series? I only played the last one and thought it was a reboot of an older PC game.  And besides, when Bethesda makes a game it is truly about the world that you're in.  They make open sand boxes where you can pick and choose your own adventures.  Bioware doesn't make games that are sand boxes, nor do I want them to because they have their own nich of games that I enjoy for themselves.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 15 juin 2013 - 04:18 .

[Jerrybnsn]

KotoR is a series? No, no it's not. I never played the second game but two games does not make a series.

[Qyla]

DA2 ending clearly suggest that both the Warden and Hawke will be really important in this fight, so I think there will be a Cameo from both our previous pc.

I honestly hope that Warden+Hawke+new pc will join their forces in this fight, at least for a bit...it would be awesome *-* (Probably it won't happen, I know, but a girl can always hope )

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

Hence why I keep saying the ideal scenario is not passing through the Eluvian. I'm not the type to become obsessed with playing one character for an entire series, but the way they leave the Warden's story off is more annoying than any other ending to a choice-based RPG I've ever played, KotOR 2 included. [/quote]

Really?  I had far more of a problem with Commander SHepard in ME3, Especially that stupid breath scene.

I likened the ELuvian (as well as all the other scenes where the Warden survived) with being more like Return of the Jedi.  Yeah, not all the galaxy's problems are solved, but look there's a reunion, happiness, and for now all is well.



[quote]
The Warden has 20-30 years to live, tops.  Barring some way to further slow/end the darkspawn taint.  Nothing says the OGB has to become active in Thedas before the Warden's Calling.  The Warden doesn't have to be a plot obligation or be relevant to the OGB (though if for some reason he is, I would want to play that part myself, as I said).  So in a sense, yeah, in a sense, it is the same thing. [/quote]

Wasn't it you who above was just arguing against this very thing? I mean, if you want to run the clock out on the Warden's Calling, I'm perfectly fine with that. It was a concept established back in DA:O that your character is living on borrowed time until he becomes a darkspawn, so it would probably be the most sensible way to get rid of the Warden without establishing an awkward excuse for why you're not around. But then, that might mess with some people's immortal image of the Warden, where he can do no wrong and is indestructible, which is itself frustrating. [/quote]

The Calling is pretty much inevitable.  Just because I don't want to witness it doesn't mean I'm not aware that it's coming.  What I am saying is that it's entirely possible, heck I'd say likely, that the OGB won't emerge until after the Warden's death.  Perhaps Morrigan's as well.

[quote]
And yes, I would want to play the Warden's role myself as well. That's what makes the Eluvian ending so frustrating. Bioware keeps reiterating this "Warden's story is done", while tossing a few Wardens into a context where they would most want to continue their story to see how events unfold in Thedas. This doesn't happen for other Wardens[/quote]

Again, not seeing it.  In fact I'd say Alistair-romancing Wardens have better cause for complaint.  Particularly those with Queen Wardens

[quote]
Well, not exactly. To keep the analogy going, it's more I want you to acknowledge that Bioware made a bad bet in the first place. When you say "The Warden's story finished with the Fifth Blight", that implies that there's been nothing wrong with how they handle the Warden, because they finished one story involving him. The thing is, they chose to launch him into another. From a writing perspective, even if not a main character, any audience would expect him to play a large role in events, hence why dropping him will be awkward regardless. [/quote]

Well, Owen Lars didn't really play much of a role in Star Wars...

[quote]
I'm fine with cutting losses, using some ham-fisted excuse to remove the Warden from the events of the series. But that does acknowledge that they will use a ham-fisted excuse, unless they go the Calling route, which will still require that Bioware explain to players what their Warden did spend their time doing with Morrigan beyond the Eluvian, or his attitude in raising his child.
[/quote]

I wouldn't start worrying until we get to something like 9:70 Dragon and there's still no sign of the OGB.