112 réponses à ce sujet

[Spanish Inquisition]

First time in this forums for me, Bethesda fan since Morrowind. Tried DA:Origins one year ago and fell in love, what a game! Unmatched story, characters, focus, ending…a true masterpiece.
Since then I’ve tried KOTOR 1, Jade Empire, Baldurs Gate 1+2… I can’t believe I didn’t play those games when I was younger!

How a studio capable of creating those games is responsible for DA:2 (Just finished before E3) is beyond me.
Don’t get me wrong, the game is good enough for most publishers, on par with Fable 2, Kingdoms of Amalur and Torchlight in my opinion.
But something strange must have happened, because I can’t believe you guys think the game is good enough to have the Bioware logo stamped on it.


I wonder how Bioware staff sees their own game.

I’m quite worried because all of you seem to have a very defensive attitude, always trying to qualify every word and constantly wary of making any kind of definitive statement. I mean no disrespect, but you don’t seem very confident about your own game.

I guess what I would love is an honest answer to this question:

Are you guys TRYING to create the best RPG of all time, like you used to do, one that surpasses DA:Origins, Skyrim and The Witcher 2?

Honestly, I’m starting to believe you aren’t.

Sorry for the long post and my horrible English.

Modifié par eltiojul, 13 juin 2013 - 11:05 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

I very much doubt it has anything to do with confidence.

They have to qualify every word because a) the game's not done and crazy people like us will pick apart everything down to the last punctuation mark.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Sorry for the wierd post layout 

EDIT: "Fixed"

Modifié par eltiojul, 13 juin 2013 - 11:04 .

[Little Princess Peach]

I think Bioware are trying there best but they have to keep up with the rest of the gaming world otherwise they will fall behind, and don't forget you can't always make a game that everyone likes that's is truly impossible.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Tharja wrote...

I think Bioware are trying there best but they have to keep up with the rest of the gaming world otherwise they will fall behind, and don't forget you can't always make a game that everyone likes that's is truly impossible.

I agree, In fact I believe trying to make a game "everyone likes" is incompatible with trying to make "the best RPG ever".

I believe they aim for "great", not "best ever" when making a game, and that mindset is responsible for DA:2

[Salaya]

Well, given the fiasco of the two previous games and the disastrous loss of prestige... I guess they are a bit discouraged by the tremendous backslash that ME3 and DA2 produced. I guess that they were not planning to lose so many core fans, or at least, not so many while not tempting the "new" potential players.

I'm sure DA:I is suffering much from being a high publisher title; probably they will have to cut and water down many content to make EA happy. I guess they are afraid that DA:I ends being another DA2 in terms of public reception.

[9TailsFox]

Are you guys TRYING to create the best RPG of all time, like you used to do, one that
surpasses DA:Origins, Skyrim and The Witcher 2?

I don't want them try to create best RPG I don't want them surpass any game in existence I want them to create game they want. And not all hate DA2 so much like it's some kind of blight.

[Shevy]

DA II lacked development time, which seemed to be the major reason it happened the way it happened. Adding to this there were some disputable design decisions (imo) and it turned out to THAT thing.

I think they put a lot of hard work into Inquisition to make it a quality game. Will it be the best cRPG ever made? Maybe.

But I don't think that they're working at it with the goal to "make it the best RPG ever". With such a mindset it's possible to try too hard and in the end deliver a inferior product instead of just focusing to ensure a quality product.

This is at least the experience I got at my job. (not in game development, but integrated in product development)

Modifié par Shevy_001, 13 juin 2013 - 10:18 .

[ElitePinecone]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I very much doubt it has anything to do with confidence.

They have to qualify every word because a) the game's not done and crazy people like us will pick apart everything down to the last punctuation mark.

Yep, these two things,

Honestly, I'm more than a little stunned at how over the top the reaction to the trailer has been. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

eltiojul wrote...
I believe they aim for "great", not "best ever" when making a game, and that mindset is responsible for DA:2

"Best ever" is very subjective.  And you only have to look at Peter Molyneux's games to understand the problems with aiming too high and promising too much.  There are limits to game development, and all the devs can do is deliver what they think is the best possible product given their resources.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Salaya wrote...

Well, given the fiasco of the two previous games and the disastrous loss of prestige... I guess they are a bit discouraged by the tremendous backslash that ME3 and DA2 produced. I guess that they were not planning to lose so many core fans, or at least, not so many while not tempting the "new" potential players.

I'm sure DA:I is suffering much from being a high publisher title; probably they will have to cut and water down many content to make EA happy. I guess they are afraid that DA:I ends being another DA2 in terms of public reception.

Oblivion and Skyrim also recieved quite a backslash (come to the Bethesda forums and read for yourself) but at least everyone agrees Bethesda is trying to make the "best RPG ever" each time.

Its obvious DA:2 wasn't created with this mindset, Bioware is capable of much more when focused on greatness.

I'm worried their goals haven't changed, and DA:3 is aming to be "the best game possible with "x" self-imposed or published-imposed restrictions" rather than focusing on making the best Bioware game ever.

[Sweawm]

Fanbase, why so offensive?

Honestly, step back, look at a few threads and see how bloody toxic BSN is. With a fanbase which Bioware has, which ranges from appreciative fans to sociopathic to critics who only seem to be on here to whine and complain and hate, you can get why Bioware would remain defensive against any fan contact.

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.

[Sable Rhapsody]

eltiojul wrote...
I'm worried their goals haven't changed, and DA:3 is aming to be "the best game possible with "x" self-imposed or published-imposed restrictions" rather than focusing on making the best Bioware game ever.

Every game has those restrictions, even Bethesda's.  

Leaving something as basic as money aside, let's say I told you that you had 10 hours to write me a story.  You wouldn't be aiming for the greatest novel ever written, you'd be working within your limitations.  If I instead gave you a decent editor and a month of time you'd still have limitations; they'd be more generous, but they'd still be there.  No matter how much time you have, how much money, how much manpower, it's never enough.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 juin 2013 - 10:29 .

[Salaya]

Sweawm wrote...

...

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.

So, being a fan implies that everything that comes from BW must be appreciated?

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 

[Raiil]

Alternatively, why so combatitive?

There are a lot of things that go into making a game. There may be missteps. I actually enjoyed DA2, though it has its flaws. But when people come out asking loaded questions or trying to bait them, it's got to be grating.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

eltiojul wrote...
I'm worried their goals haven't changed, and DA:3 is aming to be "the best game possible with "x" self-imposed or published-imposed restrictions" rather than focusing on making the best Bioware game ever.

Every game has those restrictions, even Bethesda's.  

Leaving something as basic as money aside, let's say I told you that you had 10 hours to write me a story.  You wouldn't be aiming for the greatest novel ever written, you'd be working within your limitations.  If I instead gave you a decent editor and a month of time you'd still have limitations; they'd be more generous, but they'd still be there.  No matter how much time you have, how much money, how much manpower, it's never enough.

Of course I agree, thats common sense.

But take in count budget, development time and resources are different for each game, depending on many variables.

Since I have no information at all about Bioware resources for this game (and I don't believe "development years" is enough when the size of the development team is unknown) I can only hope they decided, when making decisions on this variables, that the goal should be "make the best RPG ever".

Again, sorry for my english, try not to focus on any particular word or expression and understand the meaning of what im saying.

[imbs]

Salaya wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

...

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.

So, being a fan implies that everything that comes from BW must be appreciated?

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 

People have thought like that for a while. Apparently it's considered a plus to mindlessly like whatever a particular developer releases, no matter how awful it is. It's been masquerading as loyalty for a long while now, and it's really really dumb.

OT - Agree with everything you say OP, and don't feel bad about the bad formatting of the post, these forums are awkward as anything when it comes to making long posts. Beware though, people on this board have no problem defending everything about DA2, some of whom take offense at even minor (and somtimes factual) complaints about the game.

[Cheylus]

Opening a forum for DA:I giving almost nothing about it for 10 months doesn't help to set a good mood in general. Devs saying they're angry, annoyed or wishing to leave the forums because of some comments... and on the other side people are craving for infos and answers BioWare couldn't give. 10 months of that is enough.
Then, releasing a trailer at E3 made for fans only (how can you be interested by this trailer if you don't know Varric, Cassandra or Morrigan and the lore?) is a curious way to start.

As a player, I'm tired of sequels and spinoffs. Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect were successful because they were unexpected. I bought DA2 because I trusted BioWare and I bought ME3 because I needed my trilogy to end. Right now I'm just curious about DA:I, without being hysterical about it. I'm afraid BioWare is becoming very conservative; being conservative means you'll have to defend principles, values - your legacy. Dragon Age, Mass Effect or Star Wars are BioWare's legacies. Fanservice is also conservative. "Fanbase" is conservative.

I really want to see a new IP from BioWare, that will definitely rekindle my interest. I think you're defensive when you try to justify things you've done and try to legitimate continuity; on the other hand you can be "offensive" when you have to build something from scratch and need to convince people of a totally new thing.
(and I'm sick of hearing things about Varric's hair color, retcon, Morrigan's face, Cassandra's jaw, Cullen's socks or whatever. Get rid of that with a new IP.)

Modifié par Cheylus, 13 juin 2013 - 10:52 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

eltiojul wrote...
Since I have no information at all about Bioware resources for this game (and I don't believe "development years" is enough when the size of the development team is unknown) I can only hope they decided, when making decisions on this variables, that the goal should be "make the best RPG ever".

I dunno, I've yet to see a studio that's so extravagently ambitious (and marketing doesn't count).  There's always something that could be better, something to polish, and if you try to release a perfect game (or even the best RPG ever) you'll go crazy, and the game will never get done.

And btw, your English is just fine   It's better than a lot of native speakers on the Internet, and it's certainly miles better than my second language.

[ElitePinecone]

Salaya wrote...

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 

Well, by definition *anyone* who posts on a forum is a tiny minority of the eventual audience who play the game. The most vocal and hardcore segment don't necessarily deserve to be listened to more, or granted more legitimacy, just because their level of engagement is higher. From a business perspective the people who bought DAO or DA2 and never posted a single thing online about it are just as valid a customer as the most obsessive people on the BSN. The behaviour of these people is probably *more* important than the chatter on the BSN, since the people who post here are so, so far removed from the 'typical' person who plays DA.

I've been shocked at how rampantly toxic this entire forum has become literally overnight after the E3 briefing and the trailer went online. It'll probably settle down again in the next year and a half, but I can certainly see why any member of staff at Bioware would prefer to spend their time actually working on the game rather than dealing with some incredibly unpleasant people here. 

[Spanish Inquisition]

Cheylus wrote...
I really want to see a new IP from BioWare, that will definitely rekindle my interest. I think you're defensive when you try to justify things you've done and try to legitimate continuity; on the other hand you can be "offensive" when you have to build something from scratch and need to convince people of a totally new thing.

Never thought of it that way, I agree 100%.

Thanks for sharing

[Sweawm]

Salaya wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

...

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.

So, being a fan implies that everything that comes from BW must be appreciated?

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 

Criticism is not the problem. It's total toxic behaviour, beyond criticism, from those who act like Bioware sacrifices newborn kittens to demons, and takes sadistic joy out of ruining games. It dosn't matter if BW do ANYTHING in any direction, this portion of the fanbase which are simply, to say, trolls, is why Bioware maybe reserved with openly addressing the community.

Oh, and I'm only going by the base definition of fan. You can be a fan of many things. You could say your a fan of Default Hawke's haircut, but not a fan of DA2. Just because you are a critic of one element doesn't mean you're not a fan of the series as a whole. I'm just saying, a small minority, who are honestly not fans of the series and are very toxic individuals, are kinda the loudest speakers and give the community an awful image. 

[imbs]

Sweawm wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

...

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.

So, being a fan implies that everything that comes from BW must be appreciated?

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 

Criticism is not the problem. It's total toxic behaviour, beyond criticism, from those who act like Bioware sacrifices newborn kittens to demons, and takes sadistic joy out of ruining games. It dosn't matter if BW do ANYTHING in any direction, this portion of the fanbase which are simply, to say, trolls, is why Bioware maybe reserved with openly addressing the community.

Oh, and I'm only going by the base definition of fan. You can be a fan of many things. You could say your a fan of Default Hawke's haircut, but not a fan of DA2. Just because you are a critic of one element doesn't mean you're not a fan of the series as a whole. I'm just saying, a small minority, who are honestly not fans of the series and are very toxic individuals, are kinda the loudest speakers and give the community an awful image. 

You need to wake up and smell the coffee m8. The awful image of this forum is only partly because of "negativity" - the true foundation of the terrible image this forum has is a result of those you seem to revere so much, mindless fans who would buy, and love DAI even if it were the worst AAA RPG of the decade. This isn't even hyperbole; it has already happened.

Modifié par imbs, 13 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[Salaya]

ElitePinecone wrote...

....

Well, by definition *anyone* who posts on a forum is a tiny minority of the eventual audience who play the game. The most vocal and hardcore segment don't necessarily deserve to be listened to more, or granted more legitimacy, just because their level of engagement is higher. From a business perspective the people who bought DAO or DA2 and never posted a single thing online about it are just as valid a customer as the most obsessive people on the BSN. The behaviour of these people is probably *more* important than the chatter on the BSN, since the people who post here are so, so far removed from the 'typical' person who plays DA.

I've been shocked at how rampantly toxic this entire forum has become literally overnight after the E3 briefing and the trailer went online. It'll probably settle down again in the next year and a half, but I can certainly see why any member of staff at Bioware would prefer to spend their time actually working on the game rather than dealing with some incredibly unpleasant people here. 

I've never said the contrary. Also, I don't see how this relates to the point: legitimate fans cannot complain about something BW does?

And about the significance of forum critics and toxicity: players that do not voice their opinion in forums are majority, but that does not mean they are happy or particularly fond of the games. That a minority of players is complaining about BW could have many lectures. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Salaya wrote...
And about the significance of forum critics and toxicity: players that do not voice their opinion in forums are majority, but that does not mean they are happy or particularly fond of the games. That a minority of players is complaining about BW could have many lectures. 

No, but it doesn't mean they were unhappy either.  Those of us who do post might be the most passionate or outspoken, but we shouldn't presume to speak for the rest.  Not that I'm saying you are; it's just something that I think BSN loses track of from time to time.