112 réponses à ce sujet

[neonmoth]

eltiojul wrote...

First time in this forums for me, Bethesda fan since Morrowind. Tried [color=rgb(51, 204, 204)">DA:Origins ]KOTOR 1[/color], Jade Empire, Baldurs Gate 1+2… I can’t believe I didn’t play those games when I was younger!

How a studio capable of creating those games is responsible for DA:2 (Just finished before E3) is beyond me. Don’t get me wrong, the game is good enough for most publishers, on par with Fable 2, Kingdoms of Amalur and Torchlight in my opinion. But something strange must have happened, because I can’t believe you guys think the game is good enough to have the Bioware logo stamped on it.

I wonderhow Bioware staff sees their own game.

I’m quite worried because all of you seem to have a very defensive attitude, always trying to qualify every word and constantly wary of making any kind of definitive statement. I mean no disrespect, but you don’t seem very confident about your own game.

I guess what I would love is an honest answer to this question:

Are you guys TRYING to create the best RPG of all time, like you used to do, one that surpasses DA:Origins, Skyrim and The Witcher 2?

Honestly, I’m starting to believe you aren’t.

Sorry for the long post and my horrible English.

May I ask you why did you make your post confrontational? I am not sure of your intention and don't see the value of the accusation, regardless of whether it is justified or not. Anyway, I do not see them as insecure and uncertain about the new game, at least not more than anyone who is in the possition of marketing their product would be, and most their comments I have read were enthusiastic. However, I see them as protective over their creation, particulalry when trying to address constant bickering, nitpicking and general disheartening attitude displayed by many people in this forum.

I am also Bethesda fan, coincidentally also since Morrowind, and I must admit that however much I love their games, they become a chore much much sooner for me than Bioware games, and the emotional attachment with the story, protagonists and npc characters they generate is sub par to those created by Bw. As for your opinion about DA2, you have to remeber that it is what it is, an opinion. I hold DAO very much dear and consider it superior to DA2, still I thouroughly enjoyed my experience with the latter regardless of it's flaws. Furthermore, there are people in this forum that like it more than the first installment and their opinion is as valid as yours or mine. I definitely liked that they have tried different things when creating it, though it was hit and miss on some occassions.

Tip: your formatting can be due to copying and pasting the content. Just hit edit button and fix it.

Modifié par neonmoth, 13 juin 2013 - 10:56 .

[Fast Jimmy]

ElitePinecone wrote...

 

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I very much doubt it has anything to do with confidence.

They have to qualify every word because a) the game's not done and crazy people like us will pick apart everything down to the last punctuation mark.

Yep, these two things,

Honestly, I'm more than a little stunned at how over the top the reaction to the trailer has been.

 

I'm not trying to engage in this conversation as I'm rather ambivalent towards the whole topic, but to give some perspective... before E3, when I had thrown out the idea that we would get a trailer with zero gameplay and all cinematics, people blasted me for being "overly cynical." But when it turned out to be exactly the case, when I posed the question of "some of us were under the impression when the game was revealed and it would be more comprehensive" (giving quotes to demonstrate where this viewpoint came from), it was viewed as overly critical, nitpicky and "out to prove the devs were wrong."

I liked the concept of show, not tell. Of waiting until a time when the game could be shown in its best light before showing it at all. Of a reveal that would leave no questions about the changes Bioware was making to the game and how it would work rather than a teaser that would just get people chomping at the bit harder.

The constant stream of Tweets and other social media from Bioware Over the past ten months I thought toed the line of this marketing policy. The teaser on Monday I felt completely broke it. Which is fine and obviously totally Bioware's prerogative. And the trailer itself is a great example of graphical fidelity being generated in-engine... but graphics aren't the reason many RPG fans play the games they do. And fan favorites are nice, but having famIliar faces doesn't make a game.

So that is my, for lack of a better word, complaint. The marketing concept was a sound one, one that I was interested in seeing done, but it looks like it was scrapped due to the plans changing, which is all some of us needed to hear... Preferably without getting our heads bit off for asking it.  So that's really the last I'll say on the whole matter. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
So that is my, for lack of a better word, complaint. The marketing concept was a sound one, one that I was interested in seeing done, but it looks like it was scrapped due to the plans changing, which is all some of us needed to hear... Preferably without getting our heads bit off for asking it.  So that's really the last I'll say on the whole matter. 

Fair enough.  They could have added just a bit more to the E3 presentation that amounted to "Sorry for the delay, we'll show you guys more substantial details when it's ready."  Those of us here on BSN definitely would've waited--perhaps not patiently, but we'll wait 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 juin 2013 - 11:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Oblivion and Skyrim also recieved quite a backslash (come to the Bethesda forums and read for yourself) but at least everyone agrees Bethesda is trying to make the "best RPG ever" each time.

Not even close. Bethesda is one of the laziest companies out there. They make skeletons of games, throw on good modding capacity, and call it a day. The mod community is their primary target.

[ianvillan]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
So that is my, for lack of a better word, complaint. The marketing concept was a sound one, one that I was interested in seeing done, but it looks like it was scrapped due to the plans changing, which is all some of us needed to hear... Preferably without getting our heads bit off for asking it.  So that's really the last I'll say on the whole matter. 

Fair enough.  They could have added just a bit more to the E3 presentation that amounted to "Sorry for the delay, we'll show you guys more substantial details when it's ready."  Those of us here on BSN definitely would've waited--perhaps not patiently, but we'll wait 

They could of even put a blog on this site saying that they know we want details but they pushed the game back and it might take a bit longer to wait for them but they will do there best to get the details as soon as possible.

[Shevy]

@eltiojul

Going into product development with the mindset "let's create the best product (RPG in this case) ever" won't succeed. Reasons were given by Sable and others. You need clear gloals that match with your resources and focus on achieving them, then you have your quality product. (easy speaking, reality is way more complex)

@ Cheylus

BioWare is indeed working at a new IP. Casey Hudson's team is working on it. (iirc)

[ElitePinecone]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
So that is my, for lack of a better word, complaint. The marketing concept was a sound one, one that I was interested in seeing done, but it looks like it was scrapped due to the plans changing, which is all some of us needed to hear... Preferably without getting our heads bit off for asking it.  So that's really the last I'll say on the whole matter. 

Fair enough.  They could have added just a bit more to the E3 presentation that amounted to "Sorry for the delay, we'll show you guys more substantial details when it's ready."  Those of us here on BSN definitely would've waited--perhaps not patiently, but we'll wait 

I was actually quite surprised that there wasn't a minute of someone explaining on stage (or in the trailer, I guess): "look, this isn't a big reveal but we're showing off a rough outline of the story and a graphical benchmark, we won't be revealing everything today, hope you enjoy it". 

[Cheylus]

@Shevy
I knew and you're right. This new IP is decisive to me. We'll see!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Shevy_001 wrote...
BioWare is indeed working at a new IP. Casey Hudson's team is working on it. (iirc)

Oh yeah.  Aaron Flynn mentioned it in the E3 interview.  We don't know anything about it other than its existence.

[neonmoth]

@Fast Jimmy, I admit that even though I was predicting only a simple teaser, I felt a bit underwhelmed by the amount of info they released. Nonetheless, I cannot imagine them showing more, since the final date was moved considerably far to the future. I just can't see them revealing something that might go through major changes later on. I cannot blame them for the hype and try to remember they were hinting all over the forum about possible disappointments. I just don't see the benefit of getting all upset about it.

[Spanish Inquisition]

neonmoth wrote...

eltiojul wrote...

snip

May I ask you why did you make your post confrontational? I am not sure of your intention and don't see the value of the accusation, regardless of whether it is justified or not. Anyway, I do not see them as insecure and uncertain about the new game, at least not more than anyone who is in the possition of marketing their product would be, and most their comments I have read were enthusiastic. However, I see them as protective over their creation, particulalry when trying to address constant bickering, nitpicking and general disheartening attitude displayed by many people in this forum.

I am also Bethesda fan, coincidentally also since Morrowind, and I must admit that however much I love their games, they become a chore much much sooner for me than Bioware games, and the emotional attachment with the story, protagonists and npc characters they generate is sub par to those created by Bw. As for your opinion about DA2, you have to remeber that it is what it is, an opinion. I hold DAO very much dear and consider it superior to DA2, still I thouroughly enjoyed my experience with the latter regardless of it's flaws. Furthermore, there are people in this forum that like it more than the first installment and their opinion is as valid as yours or mine. I definitely liked that they have tried different things when creating it, though it was hit and miss on some occassions.

Tip: your formatting can be due to copying and pasting the content. Just hit edit button and fix it.

RE-formated, thanks!

I'm afraid we disagree, I believe my doubts are based on objetive reasons and the question posted to the Bioware staff is a honest and legitimate one.

I am perfectly aware many fans loved DA2. As I said in the OP, I even consider it good enough for many developers and comparable with other very popular action-rps such as Fable 2.

The thing is, I believe Bioware's goal when creating DA:2 wasn't creating the "next big RPG" or "The Best RPG ever", and that mindset is not what I expect of a studio responsible for KOTOR, Baldurs Gate or DA:O

[ianvillan]

neonmoth wrote...

@Fast Jimmy, I admit that even though I was predicting only a simple teaser, I felt a bit underwhelmed by the amount of info they released. Nonetheless, I cannot imagine them showing more, since the final date was moved considerably far to the future. I just can't see them revealing something that might go through major changes later on. I cannot blame them for the hype and try to remember they were hinting all over the forum about possible disappointments. I just don't see the benefit of getting all upset about it.

Instead of hinting why not come out before the event and say that it will only be a teaser trailer with no gameplay included.

[neonmoth]

ElitePinecone wrote...
I was actually quite surprised that there wasn't a minute of someone explaining on stage (or in the trailer, I guess): "look, this isn't a big reveal but we're showing off a rough outline of the story and a graphical benchmark, we won't be revealing everything today, hope you enjoy it".

Considering how much time they had, I can't see it. Remember that a teaser was a minute long.

Modifié par neonmoth, 13 juin 2013 - 11:21 .

[neonmoth]

ianvillan wrote...

neonmoth wrote...

@Fast Jimmy, I admit that even though I was predicting only a simple teaser, I felt a bit underwhelmed by the amount of info they released. Nonetheless, I cannot imagine them showing more, since the final date was moved considerably far to the future. I just can't see them revealing something that might go through major changes later on. I cannot blame them for the hype and try to remember they were hinting all over the forum about possible disappointments. I just don't see the benefit of getting all upset about it.

Instead of hinting why not come out before the event and say that it will only be a teaser trailer with no gameplay included.

I honestly assume it is due to more general marketing policies. Additionally, developers admitting that there was only a short teaser to be presented, without adding the information that the release date was changed significantly, would cost people here as much headache. And we know that they couldn't reveal that piece of information. It seems like running in circles.

[Nomadiac]

eltiojul wrote...

Oblivion and Skyrim also recieved quite a backslash (come to the Bethesda forums and read for yourself) but at least everyone agrees Bethesda is trying to make the "best RPG ever" each time.

Its obvious DA:2 wasn't created with this mindset, Bioware is capable of much more when focused on greatness.

I'm worried their goals haven't changed, and DA:3 is aming to be "the best game possible with "x" self-imposed or published-imposed restrictions" rather than focusing on making the best Bioware game ever.

Speak for yourself - I thought Skyrim was barely an update to Oblivion. Graphically it looks a lot better, but in terms of gameplay and the way the world feels it's still a skeleton. And no, mods don't make up for this (unless Bethesda officially gives credits and salaries to modders as co-developers...)

And as for "publisher-imposed restrictions", the fact that they've been given a full year more to develop DA:I makes me a lot less worried about that.

[metatheurgist]

Shevy_001 wrote...
Going into product development with the mindset "let's create the best product (RPG in this case) ever" won't succeed.

Could've sworn I read somewhere that that was the entire reason the Dr's created BG in the first place. Didn't find that reference but I found this instead:

www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/16/not-forgotten-bioware-on-baldurs-gate/

I think it sheds light on why the modern games industry has gone off the rails. Games used to be created by gamers for gamers. Now they are created by marketing departments for shareholders.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Shevy_001 wrote...

@eltiojul

Going into product development with the mindset "let's create the best product (RPG in this case) ever" won't succeed. Reasons were given by Sable and others. You need clear gloals that match with your resources and focus on achieving them, then you have your quality product. (easy speaking, reality is way more complex)

I agree Shevy:001, but you assume "resources" as given.

If Bioware decided they should try to surpass all other RPGs, and to do so they need more resources, they could do so. Of course, this is very risky, you have to believe 100% in your team and idea.

Take Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy, for example.

At first, rejected by many movie studios (too costly, too risky...). Peter Jackson could've chosen to "simplify" the project, and make one great film, but he firmly believed in his idea and finally found all the resources and time he needed aming to make the greatest fantasy-adventure trilogy ever.

Thanks to this decision, we now have 3 unbeateable movies. And yes, if they believed they needed 7 miles of PVC pipe to make realistic chainmail for all extras they got it. 

I believe the potential in DA characters and lore is tremendous, and Bioware has the experience and talent needed to at least TRY to create the best RPG ever.

Believing in your ideas and trying to surpass yourself creates games like DA:O.

Compromising and simplifing your project to meet ceirtan pre-set goals is easier when you dont believe in yourself or your team, and creates games like DA:2


 

Modifié par eltiojul, 13 juin 2013 - 12:01 .

[Spanish Inquisition]

metatheurgist wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...
Going into product development with the mindset "let's create the best product (RPG in this case) ever" won't succeed.

Could've sworn I read somewhere that that was the entire reason the Dr's created BG in the first place.

<3

[neonmoth]

eltiojul wrote...
*double snip*

RE-formated, thanks!

I'm afraid we disagree, I believe my doubts are based on objetive reasons and the question posted to the Bioware staff is a honest and legitimate one.

I am perfectly aware many fans loved DA2. As I said in the OP, I even consider it good enough for many developers and comparable with other very popular action-rps such as Fable 2.

The thing is, I believe Bioware's goal when creating DA:2 wasn't creating the "next big RPG" or "The Best RPG ever", and that mindset is not what I expect of a studio responsible for KOTOR, Baldurs Gate or DA:O

No probs! I have constant problems with formatting :]

I do not doubt your intentions, I was just merely wondering what sort of reaction you have tried to elicit from BW employees with this thread. That they would come here and reassure you they were aiming to make the best rpg ever? For me it is obvious they are, considering how much time they have already spent working on it and they intend to spend extra year. This should mean something. To be honest I cannot imagine that they had a different aim in mind when working on DA2. The game was obviously rushed, so it is impossible for me not to wonder what would be a final product if they had enough time to complete it. Shame really. They are still the same guys who created all of the games mentioned by you, why not to cheer them instead of hunting them?

Anyway, I'm not trying to undermine what you want to achieve. I am just in a camp that prefers to stay positive and hopeful. Developers are only people and I don't want them to get burnt out in the process. I for certain wouldn't want my clients doubting in me on every step. That's not very productive.

[Aolbain]

OP, you must learn that your opinions does not equal well established facts. You might think that DA2 was lousy but I found it a good game and many people thought it surpasses DA:O. Same goes for the games you put up as the best RPGs ever: DA:O, I'll give you that one, but many wouldn't; Skyrim, I don't get how that's even a rpg, next to zero character interaction and dialogue, if you actually want to roleplay it you have to headcannon everything; Witcher 2, I loved that game to death but that thing had more autodialogue then freaking ME3!

Also, you might wanna cut down on the confrontational language, if I was a dev I wouldn't want to come here if that was what I saw.

And I think anyone that goes into a project with the mindset to make the best X ever suffers from a severe case of hubris and inflated self esteem. Bioware (and most other developers) properly tries to make the best they can with the resources they have. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

Modifié par Aolbain, 13 juin 2013 - 12:03 .

[neonmoth]

eltiojul wrote...

metatheurgist wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...
Going into product development with the mindset "let's create the best product (RPG in this case) ever" won't succeed.

Could've sworn I read somewhere that that was the entire reason the Dr's created BG in the first place.

<3

I'm with you on that one. Not in the cocky sense, i.e. we're the best therefore we (have to) make the best, but in more creative way, i.e. let's do something great that wasn't done before. This frame of mind for me is necessary to do something truely great.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Aolbain wrote...

OP, you must learn that your opinions does not equal well established facts. You might think that DA2 was lousy but I found it a good game and many people that thought it surpasses DA:O. Same goes for the games you put up as the best RPGs ever: DA:O, I'll give you that one, but many wouldn't; Skyrim, I don't get how that's even a rpg, next to zero character interaction and dialogue, if you actually want to roleplay it you have to headcannon everything; Witcher 2, I loved that game to death but that thing had more autodialogue then freaking ME3!
Also, you might wanna cut down on the confrontational language, if I was a dev I wouldn't want to come here if that was what I saw.
And I think anyone that goes into a project with the mindset to make the best X ever suffers from a severe case of hubris and inflated self esteem. Bioware (and most other developers) properly tries to make the best they can with the resources they have. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

Thanks for sharing Aolbain.

I have the utmost respect and admiration for all Bioware staff. I wrote the OP here because I believe them to be the best RPG studio with Bethesda but I am truly worried they dont seem to believe in their own games as the best anymore.

Anyway, please let the moderators do their job if they feel my language is confrontational or innapropiate in any way, andl lest agree to disagree Aolbain!

Cheers :happy:

[neonmoth]

Aolbain wrote...
*snip*
And I think anyone that goes into a project with the mindset to make the best X ever suffers from a severe case of hubris and inflated self esteem. Bioware (and most other developers) properly tries to make the best they can with the resources they have. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

I always felt that they were really aiming high with DA2 but they were cut in the process and had to release a shadow of the game it could really be. I very much enjoy it as it is yet I still wonder how much better it could be if they had a chance to polish it. That's why I am relieved that this time they have more time and flexibility during development.

Modifié par neonmoth, 13 juin 2013 - 12:13 .

[Jonata]

This forum is full of people constantly (and I really mean CONSTANTLY, 24/7) bashing every little thing BioWare let slip of their incoming game.

It's obvious they sound defensive: they are basically defending from posters' attacks.

[Aolbain]

On my phone. Hard to quote.

Nah, if that is moderator worthy we would all banned by now, the forum an empty wasteland. Just stating a reason they might get a little defensive sometimes.
Otherwise: yeah, let's agree to disagree :-)