112 réponses à ce sujet

[Aolbain]

@neonmoth: My feelings exactly. It speaks for biowares skills when they in 18 months can make a game that not only works but are easily in my top 3 that year.

[Itkovian]

As a note to the OP, keep in mind the single most constraining factor in DA2 was the VERY short development cycle.

They had what, a year and a half to make a AAA RPG?

That's ludicrously short, and that's why DA2 took so many shortcuts. Given this, I think DA2 is a remarkable achievement, especially when you consider how well they did in the areas they DID focus their efforts on (such as storytelling and combat mechanics... which aren't perfect, but you can't deny they put a lot of efforts into them).

Meanwhile DAI has already had twice as long a dev cycle, I think, and they're adding ANOTHER year to polish it. This is a good thing, and will almost certainly translate into a much more refined product.

Indeed, that's what made DAO so great, IMO: They took their time with it. It was one of the most polished games I've ever played, on release, and if DAI approaches that amount of time and effort then we're in for a great ride.

[Boycott Bioware]

Why they are defensive?

i. Evil,business practice
- it is a fact that game industry is business, but the difference of today game industry and yesterday is they focus more on business than entertainment, and they obviously do. Not only Bioware but any game developers today such as Bethesda have following that attitude. They separate stuff, some of the stuff they put on DLCs for extra money for example. When fan rage, they have to be defensive.

ii. Business Practice
- They are bad in handling the customers and fans, bad at handling complaints, today business practice is "customers always wrong", it happen everywhere, not just in game industry...there is no such thing as "We apologize for the inconvenience" or "we will look at the matter as soon as possible" thing...they just **** it, **** the customers," don't like it? **** you! buy other products!"...that is why they can put the blames to the fans...

iii. The Market
- they need early money to roll, the way to do that is to buy old fans, but then give a middle finger to them because the game is not targeted to the old fans but to the new generation players. Both Bioware and Bethesda do the same. When the fan base realize it, they got raged, so Bioware have to be defensive. just look on why DA:I trailer showing Morrigan, Varric and Cassndra? That is a tactic to buy old fans...just wait they showing their middle finger afterward...

iv. The Agents
- the agents are everywhere, they look like you, they are working in the system, when someone critic the said product, the agents will rush in defending the system and making the one who complaint look bad, these agents look like the fans, this is their defense mechanism...

v. The "Hidden Hands"
- there are hidden hands that giving orders in their back, they must following the order of these hidden hands, they cannot against these hidden hands. The Master of Puppets who making demands, giving orders and they have to follow it to death, so no matter how fans reaction to the changes they do they must defend it at all cost...that is why they are defensive.

[Arvaarad]

Let's talk for a moment about what working on a large dev team is like.

My first job out of college was with a media company. Not (primarily) a video game specialist, but they have a large presence in movies, TV, and mobile applications. I was a software engineer on one of their mobile teams.

Anyway, we (the mobile team I worked on) made an application that had a marketing push associated with it. TV spots, social media, etc. The TV spot was put together by the creative team and used music from a music library. Essentially, you pay a license fee to the music library, and they give you music to incorporate in your products.

Except there was one problem. The music that was chosen from the music library sampled heavily from a certain band's music. Once the spot aired, the band noticed it and started a twitter campaign against it. People were urged to boycott the app, dislike the spot on youtube, and badmouth it on the app store, which they continued doing even after the music was removed.

Let's reiterate: the mistake of someone (the music library) who had nug-all to do with the project, and who in fact didn't even work for the company, caused the public to take action that hurt the people who did the work on the app and had little-to-no say in the marketing.

The problem with big teams is that they look like one big faceless blob to the public. It's pretty normal to get flak for things that are the province of an entirely different team (some other people gave the app bad ratings because they didn't like other apps produced by other teams in the company).

So it drives me lulubananas when people on the BSN criticize the DA team for marketing stuff or for Mass Effect stuff. Most of the people who work on a large dev team aren't involved in that and are in fact restricted from being involved in it so the marketing team can do their job without interference.

Basically, I understand the level of frustration and powerlessness that can occur when dealing with a public who sees you as just another interchangeable part in the corporate machine - where everyone gets the blame for every bad decision, and where each complaint is repeated 1000x over, even if the problem is fixed.

/rant

Modifié par Ethone, 13 juin 2013 - 12:57 .

[Blackrising]

I'd be defensive too if my fans kept attacking me and my work at every turn.

[Nerevar-as]

Itkovian wrote...

As a note to the OP, keep in mind the single most constraining factor in DA2 was the VERY short development cycle.

They had what, a year and a half to make a AAA RPG?

That's ludicrously short, and that's why DA2 took so many shortcuts. Given this, I think DA2 is a remarkable achievement, especially when you consider how well they did in the areas they DID focus their efforts on (such as storytelling and combat mechanics... which aren't perfect, but you can't deny they put a lot of efforts into them).
.

YMMV. I found both to be the worst part of the game. I´d say calling that storytelling is already praising it too much, and combat tried and failed to be more oriented towards action than party based RPG. Time is not an excuse for that as it was a development choice.

[Nerevar-as]

Blackrising wrote...

I'd be defensive too if my fans kept attacking me and my work at every turn.

I´m afraid that usually happens when your standard work quality drops so much. And no, the negativity to games before DAII and ME3 wasn´t close to this by far, no matter what some devs like to claim.

[neonmoth]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

I'd be defensive too if my fans kept attacking me and my work at every turn.

I´m afraid that usually happens when your standard work quality drops so much. And no, the negativity to games before DAII and ME3 wasn´t close to this by far, no matter what some devs like to claim.

Nothing excuses attacking other people. And, really? I was surprised by the amount of grumpiness that was present after DAO release. What has changed is that people become bolder. I'm not trying to say that fans should not voice their opinions but the way they often do it in here makes me really shake my head. Very often it is not the content but the tone that is really surprising.

Modifié par neonmoth, 13 juin 2013 - 01:17 .

[ElitePinecone]

Qistina wrote...

iv. The Agents
- the agents are everywhere, they look like you, they are working in the system, when someone critic the said product, the agents will rush in defending the system and making the one who complaint look bad, these agents look like the fans, this is their defense mechanism...

v. The "Hidden Hands"
- there are hidden hands that giving orders in their back, they must following the order of these hidden hands, they cannot against these hidden hands. The Master of Puppets who making demands, giving orders and they have to follow it to death, so no matter how fans reaction to the changes they do they must defend it at all cost...that is why they are defensive.

Weren't you leaving? 

[Darth Death]

eltiojul wrote...

I wonder how Bioware staff sees their own game.

I like to believe they hated DA2, but was forced to say good things about it. Maybe deep down BioWare thought, "Dang, DA2 is garbage, but we just can't come out and say that since it might make us look bad." To me, I could probably understand that particular scenario better than the antithesis.  

[Jonata]

neonmoth wrote...

Nothing excuses attacking other people. And, really? I was surprised by the amount of grumpiness that was present after DAO release. What has changed is that people become bolder. I'm not trying to say that fans should not voice their opinions but the way they often do it in here makes me really shake my head. Very often it is not the content but the tone that is really surprising.

That's absolutely true. The attacks on BioWare for everything here are becoming so aggressive that it's starting to be disrespectful in a way that has nothing to do with games quality or fans interest. People should be respected, no matter what and on this forum this is starting to be rare. 

That being said, quality in BioWare games has dropped only in the fans' heads. They may have failed a couple of "hit or miss" instances, but we had people trash-talking DA:I for a trailer that was absolutely great just because of Cassandra's jaw or because there were no HUD-gameplay in it. 

Sometimes I wonder if bashing BioWare on these boards isn't more about showing off and look "smarter than thou" rather than actually loving their games to the point of hating its own authors. 

Modifié par Jonata, 13 juin 2013 - 01:41 .

[ElitePinecone]

Darth Death wrote...

eltiojul wrote...

I wonder how Bioware staff sees their own game.

I like to believe they hated DA2, but was forced to say good things about it. Maybe deep down BioWare thought, "Dang, DA2 is garbage, but we just can't come out and say that since it might make us look bad." To me, I could probably understand that particular scenario better than the antithesis.  

Hate is way too strong an emotion, though. Being dissatisfied or disappointed with the limited time and resources to polish the second game is something some Bioware staff have already expressed. 

Could you ever hate something you'd spent two years creating? Knowing the amount of effort it took to do it?

[Nightdragon8]

eltiojul wrote...

Cheylus wrote...
I really want to see a new IP from BioWare, that will definitely rekindle my interest. I think you're defensive when you try to justify things you've done and try to legitimate continuity; on the other hand you can be "offensive" when you have to build something from scratch and need to convince people of a totally new thing.

Never thought of it that way, I agree 100%.

Thanks for sharing

.... and someone isn't up with the lastest news... you got your wish, Bioware is making a New IP, Its not been announced so don't ask.

DA2 from the rumors was rushed by the publishers AKA EA, to make money. It seems that EA may have learned there lession in that when dealing with RPG's faster does not equal better.

Now as long as BW doesn't squander there time, don't have too many internal conficts, no massive layoffs, the game should come out good, and relitivly bug free. (as long as they Lession to there bug testers, and as long as tehre bug testers are good enought o explain what was wrong)

[Darth Death]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

eltiojul wrote...

I wonder how Bioware staff sees their own game.

I like to believe they hated DA2, but was forced to say good things about it. Maybe deep down BioWare thought, "Dang, DA2 is garbage, but we just can't come out and say that since it might make us look bad." To me, I could probably understand that particular scenario better than the antithesis.  

Hate is way too strong an emotion, though. Being dissatisfied or disappointed with the limited time and resources to polish the second game is something some Bioware staff have already expressed. 

Could you ever hate something you'd spent two years creating? Knowing the amount of effort it took to do it?

Absolutely, especially if all that hard work & effort was dedicated to rushing a product out the door in order to meet a deadline. I always look back on my past works, either drawings, writing stories, or whatever & I judge things in black or white most times. Either it's good or it isn't. Even if I spent ten years on a project that had many shortcomings, I couldn't lie  to myself into thinking it was a good project. I would hate it unequivocally, but then again my perfectionist counterpart may contribute to this unrest I feel to make something good (depends on the topic). I can only speak for myself though.    

[mk123]

Well, how would you feel if you put so much time and effort into making something, only to have people sneer and complain and declare it the WORST THING EVA OMG. I'm not surprised Bioware staff are a bit defensive - they're only human.

[Dutchess]

Nightdragon8 wrote...


DA2 from the rumors was rushed by the publishers AKA EA, to make money. It seems that EA may have learned there lession in that when dealing with RPG's faster does not equal better.

Bioware keeps denying this, though. One of the former Bioware doctors said in a recent interview that "EA gives you enough rope to hang yourself". So then that is exactly what Bioware did with DA2. They hung themselves. I'm tired of "the game was rushed, boohoo" being used as an excuse for its quality (or lack thereof), especially if they keep insisting they get to make their own decisions. If that's true, than why decide to hang yourself?

[neonmoth]

Jonata wrote...

neonmoth wrote...

Nothing excuses attacking other people. And, really? I was surprised by the amount of grumpiness that was present after DAO release. What has changed is that people become bolder. I'm not trying to say that fans should not voice their opinions but the way they often do it in here makes me really shake my head. Very often it is not the content but the tone that is really surprising.

That's absolutely true. The attacks on BioWare for everything here are becoming so aggressive that it's starting to be disrespectful in a way that has nothing to do with games quality or fans interest. People should be respected, no matter what and on this forum this is starting to be rare. 

That being said, quality in BioWare games has dropped only in the fans' heads. They may have failed a couple of "hit or miss" instances, but we had people trash-talking DA:I for a trailer that was absolutely great just because of Cassandra's jaw or because there were no HUD-gameplay in it. 

Sometimes I wonder if bashing BioWare on these boards isn't more about showing off and look "smarter than thou" rather than actually loving their games to the point of hating its own authors. 

Very much this! It seems some people do not understand in how bad light they present themselves by being snarky and oh-so-knowledgeable, regardless of the points they are making. Admittedly, I avoid reading posts written by some people in this forum.

[Urazz]

eltiojul wrote...

Tharja wrote...

I think Bioware are trying there best but they have to keep up with the rest of the gaming world otherwise they will fall behind, and don't forget you can't always make a game that everyone likes that's is truly impossible.

I agree, In fact I believe trying to make a game "everyone likes" is incompatible with trying to make "the best RPG ever".

I believe they aim for "great", not "best ever" when making a game, and that mindset is responsible for DA:2

Nah, DA2 just lacked development time.  It had a lot of potential but things had to be rushed.

[Urazz]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

As a note to the OP, keep in mind the single most constraining factor in DA2 was the VERY short development cycle.

They had what, a year and a half to make a AAA RPG?

That's ludicrously short, and that's why DA2 took so many shortcuts. Given this, I think DA2 is a remarkable achievement, especially when you consider how well they did in the areas they DID focus their efforts on (such as storytelling and combat mechanics... which aren't perfect, but you can't deny they put a lot of efforts into them).
.

YMMV. I found both to be the worst part of the game. I´d say calling that storytelling is already praising it too much, and combat tried and failed to be more oriented towards action than party based RPG. Time is not an excuse for that as it was a development choice.

The storyline was good but again. Time constraints did limit on what you could do with the story.  Acts 1 and 2 were pretty good in my opinion with only a few issues.  But otherwise, Act 3 was rushed completely.

And the gameplay mechanics were actually pretty fun and were quite simple at first glance but was more complex than you would think.  It was just how they handled the maps and mob spawning that was horrible.

[thebigbad1013]

Anyone who thinks that BioWare isn't doing their damnedest to make their games as good as they can possible be are just being ridiculous. Also Dragon Age 2 was nowhere near as bad as some people make it out to be--sure, it could have been a lot better with more development time but all things considered it was still a good game.

As for why they are being defensive, if they indeed are being defensive, I imagine it has something to do with certain groups of people attacking them and their work at every turn--just a guess.

[neonmoth]

renjility wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...


DA2 from the rumors was rushed by the publishers AKA EA, to make money. It seems that EA may have learned there lession in that when dealing with RPG's faster does not equal better.

Bioware keeps denying this, though. One of the former Bioware doctors said in a recent interview that "EA gives you enough rope to hang yourself". So then that is exactly what Bioware did with DA2. They hung themselves. I'm tired of "the game was rushed, boohoo" being used as an excuse for its quality (or lack thereof), especially if they keep insisting they get to make their own decisions. If that's true, than why decide to hang yourself?

They would keep denying it, even if it was true. However, 18 months of developmnet is a very short time for creating a complex game. I don't understand why would they limit themselves if they had an opportunity to extend that period. Anyway, I agree that DA2 could be better and it had some annoyances but many people, including myself, still enjoyed it. Regardless, whether we try to excuse the last game or not, it would be great to give developers a benefit of doubt and judge the next game based on its merits.

Modifié par neonmoth, 13 juin 2013 - 02:39 .

[ElitePinecone]

renjility wrote...

Bioware keeps denying this, though. One of the former Bioware doctors said in a recent interview that "EA gives you enough rope to hang yourself". So then that is exactly what Bioware did with DA2. They hung themselves. I'm tired of "the game was rushed, boohoo" being used as an excuse for its quality (or lack thereof), especially if they keep insisting they get to make their own decisions. If that's true, than why decide to hang yourself?

You're turning a metaphor into a contract, which is risky at best. We have multiple examples of where Bioware actively had to ask for more time on projects (Casey Hudson had to make the case to EA to push ME3 back by six months, and ME2's budget was constrained by EA's overall cost-cutting during the global financial crisis) and the publisher would certainly impose deadlines for projects. It's a public company with revenue targets and expectations to maintain; if it needed a Bioware game to release in a certain quarter to prop up its profit margin, then it would insist on that happening. 

We *don't* know the internal decision-making behind DA2's development, and we probably never will, but it's misguided to think that there was no publisher pressure to get it out at a certain time.