[quote]frostajulie wrote...
I find it hilarious how David Gaider uses the word "toxic" in a description about the BSN forums and 10 out of 10 fanboys who think Bioware is perfect use the same word to describe the forums, its like you can't even come up with your own complaints without having them spoonfed to you.
Hi-****ing-larious.
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I find it "hilarious" that some people believe dismissing "fanboys" with name-calling and insults is a good representation of their side of an argument. Warning: name-calling and insults are not permitted on the BSN, and they are not valid counters to an argument.
[quote]These forums are not toxic they are tame. MUch of the criticism is earned criticism bioware has brought on itself by releasing substandard games that while good in many ways fall short of the bar they have set by creating such engaging masterpieces in the past.
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Regardless of how valid the criticism is, I believe the argument here is that there are many ways to
present such criticism beyond, as I mentioned before, name-calling and insults. Regardless of how BioWare or its games measure up to the bar you've set for them, EA relies primarily on one thing to determine whether a game is successful: sales. No matter how much you, personally, dislike a game, if it sells well it's successful. If it sells poorly, it's unsuccessful no matter how loudly people crow about it.
But let's please not be under the impression that volume and vociferousness determines who "wins" an argument. The BSN is not a community about "winning" arguments. It's a place to share opinions, thoughts, and discussion about BioWare and its games. If you can't share your thoughts and opinions about a game without resorting to insults and name-calling, your posting privileges will be removed for a time. If you can't be civil and mature in your arguments, particularly with those who disagree with you, then you will be forcibly removed from the discussion.
Now that that's been said, let's go over the criticisms you have and see whether they are "deserved," because no one is saying you can't have a negative opinion about DAII, BioWare, EA, or whatever here on BSN:
Recycled environments in DA2- they earned that criticism.
Lore butchering in ME3 and retconning lore in DA2- they earned that criticism
sloppy journal system and abhorrant ending in ME3- they earned that criticism
Lazy loss of immersion and rpg storytelling when using eavesdropping as opposed to character interaction- Earned criticism
Elimination of race and character origins after DAO- Earned criticism
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The only thing I have issue with here (aside from your slanted word choice) is that "loss of immersion and rpg storytelling" is extremely subjective, and there's no real way to guarantee immersion in a player. Some people become immersed in Sudoku, but I doubt anyone would consider sudoku to be "immersive." On the other hand, I rarely get immersed in an Elder Scrolls game, while many people can lose hours, even days, playing those games. I can get immersed in a book, or I can spend hours reading and not be immersed. "Loss of immersion" is, in my opinion, not a valid criticism. And since immersion is an interactive concept (ie. the player determines immersion, either consciously or unconsciously), calling this failing "lazy" means you bear some of that responsibility.
Another way to present this might be that switching to eavesdropping was jarring. There's no insult there, no judgement, just a statement of subjective experience.
[quote]It is not toxic to be vocal in criticisms that a company has earned through lackluster game design.
But lets not forget Biowares response to criticism
-Artistic integrity
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This was a community meme based on a blog entry by Dr. Ray Muzyka. It has never been used by BioWare to dismiss or counter criticism. Ray made a blog statement of support for the ME3 team at a time when the community was freaking out about the endings. Ray wanted to show his company that he was proud of them and the game, and wanted the team to know they should be proud of it too.
Check out the blog entry for yourselves. I believe Ray never once used the term "artistic integrity," but he did make mention of BioWare's and the ME3 team's "artistic vision," something all creators have in mind when embarking on collaborative projects like videogames.
Once the blog entry came out, some in the community misinterpreted Ray's meaning and, through the unreliable, reactionary beast of the internet, it turned into "BioWare uses their 'artistic integrity' to dismiss anyone who hates the game." The digital gaming media proably didn't help much in that regard, either.
[quote]-fans just don't get it
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This one is a mystery to me. It's possible that BioWare, or a BioWare representative, said this, but I don't know anyone who's presented the source quote in context. It could be one of those community misinterpretations, it could be made up by the community, or it could be real. If it's a real quote, it's not a great thing for a creator to say.
[quote]- Just a minority (implied it does not matter)
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I can't agree with this as a genuine criticism because some sections of the community are trying to use it to their own advantage, by being extremely vocal and repetitive and saying time and again what "most fans" want, or what "most fans" hated, or what "nobody" liked about the game.
Argumentum ad populam, I believe it's called, an argument from popularity, implying that the more popular an opinion is, the more correct it is.
I don't know that BioWare has ever ignored criticism because a minority of fans expressed those opinions. And if you think about it, BioWare does quite a lot of work to address a "minority" of their players. For one thing, if criticisms of ME3's ending didn't matter, and if they were expressed by a minority of fans, why would BioWare put all that work into the EC? Now, before you pipe in with "but EC didn't address
my concerns[/i]," I will say that it would be impossible to address each individual's concerns about the ME3 endings and that the ME3 team itself has ideas of how ME3 should have ended, and like it or not, they have the final say about their game. The EC project had a limited scope and a limited budget, and at no time did BioWare ever promise or even indicate that the EC would address
everyone's concerns about the ME3 ending. They said it would clarify and expand on things that already existed, and would not change the endings.
In addition to the EC, BioWare has always offered players multiple classes and genders to play, and sometimes even races. This, despite clear evidence that many people choose the default avatar anyway. BioWare is one of the few RPG developers that present homosexual romances and relationships in game, let alone playable ones that treat them with the same care and sensitivity as heterosexual romances. And if that weren't enough, game developers routinely come into the community to chat with and get feedback from the minority of fans who sign up to game forums!
"Just a minority," indeed!
[quote]-entitled (we kind of are entitled to our own opinions and if promises are made and they were and then promises are not delivered on in fact the very opposite happens then your damn right we are entitled to respond to being lied to with anger)
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Yes, you are entitled to your opinions. Yes, you are entitled to respond to perceived deficiencies in the product you purchased. But are you entitled to never be disappointed in a game? Are you entitled to never dislike a BioWare game? Do you have the right, moral or legal or otherwise, to call for the firing of members of the dev team for disappointing you? Is there an agreement between you and BioWare that states you will always like the same things?
No one here is saying you don't have the right to dislike DAII or any features therein. But on the other side of that coin, no one, least of all BioWare, can guarantee that BioWare will make a game that you will like. No one can guarantee a perfect game, a successful game, or an enjoyable game. BioWare makes the game they want, a game they
hope y'all will enjoy, and releases it. At that point, whether you like it is no longer up to them.
Much of the outcry after DAII's release was because it was so different from what players expected after DAO. BioWare tried, perhaps not hard enough, to emphasize that the game was going to be different from DAO, and developers all the way up to Mike Laidlaw acknowledged that mistake, promising to better manage players' expectations for the next game. You can see the results of that promise in the DAI forums now. No big fanfare, no huge promises, just a teaser and trying to keep people from freaking out anyway.
For the record, I have called people "entitled" after ME3's release, but never for merely having expectations or believing the marketing. I saved the term for the extreme cases, those who believed that their opinions were the correct, only, right ones and that no one else existed in the world. These extreme people can't conceive of a world where they are eve disappointed, and if they are, it's someone else's fault. This is a world where developers make games just for these people, based solely on these people's opinions and feedback.
[quote]-BSN's favorite catch phrase for all things that does not worship at the alter of Bioware- Toxic-
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It's not BSN's favourite catchphrase. It's an evocative, provocative word that seems to adequately and accurately describe some of the attitudes on the BSN. It's the attitude that, if I don't slam BioWare, they might think they're doing a good job. It's the attitude of needing to say so many bad things to counter all the compliments BioWare's received. It's the attitude that I need to be louder and more intense and more repetitive so BioWare doesn't forget
my opinions. And it's the attitude that, because I am "keeping it real" and "telling it like it is" and "not being a sycophant," I am excusing my rude, childish behaviour. Because I'm genuine and I'm not sugar-coating anything. Come at me, bro.
That's why it's toxic, not because people are criticizing BioWare or its games.
[quote]And my personal favorite
-name calling I am apparently a dink according to Chris Priestly because I actually listen to Bioware when they say things like all of the above and when they say they don't really care if some fans don't like their work because they are making the game they want to make and if the fans don't like their game then Bioware is not the game developer for them anymore.
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No, he called you a negative dink because you were acting like a negative dink. You were boorish, arrogant, and believed your dislike of BioWare entitled you to be rude and condescending to others. You are exhibiting similar behaviour in this thread.
[quote]*snip*
So to sum it up, bioware earned nearly all the criticism they got. But they have also earned much praise, they need to learn to take the good with the bad and if they truly DON"T care about what the fans have to say then just ignore it rather than respond to it with the name calling and defensiveness rooted in hilarity such as the artistic integrity excuse.
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Thank you for reading this far, everyone. I welcome questions, concerns, and counter-arguments, but I do not tolerate rudeness or other bad behaviour.
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