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Bioware staff - why so defensive?


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#101
Degs29

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Ninja Stan wrote...
I find it "hilarious" that some people believe dismissing "fanboys" with name-calling and insults is a good representation of their side of an argument. Warning: name-calling and insults are not permitted on the BSN, and they are not valid counters to an argument.


^^^^^^This!

People are always so quick to make the lazy argument:

"You're a fanboy."
"You're a Democrat."
"You're a [fill in profession/race/gender/etc.]"

As if it proves their point.  Just because someone doesn't see your side of things, doesn't mean they're being unreasonable.

Modifié par Degs29, 13 juin 2013 - 10:16 .


#102
metatheurgist

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Il Divo wrote...
Well, I was speaking strictly for myself, as a Bioware fan who played BG long after most other Bioware games and found it lacking everything I love about Bioware games. I do not deny however its influence on the genre.

Fair enough. You have to remember, that BG came after the end of the Gold Box era, which was a long and dry RPG desert for us RPG gamers. Yes, I imagine it would seem lacking today if you just played it for the first time. Doom might seem lacking to someone that's only played a modern FPS (I'm sure there would at least be a cry of "Graphics sux!" Image IPB).

#103
Angrywolves

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The DA franchise is on the line. Another failure and it's gone. Hence defensiveness. I think they're having trouble with frostbite as well. My suspicion. shrugs. Brent Knowles and Drew K. With their departures DA and ME went downhill fast.

#104
Il Divo

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metatheurgist wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Well, I was speaking strictly for myself, as a Bioware fan who played BG long after most other Bioware games and found it lacking everything I love about Bioware games. I do not deny however its influence on the genre.

Fair enough. You have to remember, that BG came after the end of the Gold Box era, which was a long and dry RPG desert for us RPG gamers. Yes, I imagine it would seem lacking today if you just played it for the first time. Doom might seem lacking to someone that's only played a modern FPS (I'm sure there would at least be a cry of "Graphics sux!" Image IPB).


Oh, definitely. Had BG1 been my first Bioware game and had I played it when first coming out, there's a good chance I might have loved it. In my case, KotOR happened to be my first experience with Bioware/interactive RPGs....lo and behold, it's also my favorite, so I can't say for certain what a younger generation of gamers who have played DA:O/ME might think of my tastes.

One thing that is interesting about the OP is he mentions having played DA:O recently and having gone back to play older Bioware games. Now, assuming he went in the order that he lists said games in KotOR-Jade Empire-BG1+2, it seems a bit odd that he places them all in a singular category, while DA2 is in a lone category. Especially if you're coming off KotOR and Jade Empire, BG1 would likely be a jarring experience mainly for: lack of focus on character interactions, a minimalist main plot (for the first 2/3rds, at least), a very large focus on sandbox exploration/party combat. Not to say you wouldn't enjoy the game because of it, but it's a very different style experience than the heavy plot/character focused KotOR/Jade Empire.

I'm curious to hear what he enjoyed most about BG1 in comparison to other Bioware experiences.

#105
neonmoth

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I'm amazed that guys in Bioware still have enthusiasm and willingness to create something special after reading some of the comments. I would be struggling if my so called clients aka "fans" were doubting in my capabilities all the time. It is natural that during development process they face various problems, with engine as well. #doubleshrug

@Il Divo, He also put Skyrim as a reference... I love that game but it shouldn't be called an rpg and I honestly enjoy DA2/ME3 more. I guess it is a matter of taste.

Modifié par neonmoth, 14 juin 2013 - 09:59 .


#106
Ninja Stan

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neonmoth, anyone in the creative field knows that every project will have its supporters and detractors. Even as loud and as repetitive as the detractors can get, supporters will still be heard (and vice versa). Ultimately, if you're putting a creative product up for sale, the proof of its success isn't necessarily in what people say, but in how many people buy it. Even if everyone hates it, if it sold well, that means you've either made a good product or the marketing worked exceedingly well.

In either case, you have your inventive to work on the next project. Creatives aren't so deluded as to believe that everyone everywhere will definitely like every product they put out. And there's always that piece of advice for creatives: "Never read the comments." ;)

#107
AtreiyaN7

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Salaya wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

...

Doesn't matter if the majority is actually legitimate fans (Don't say otherwise. Being a fan implies you are actually A FAN of the current), the minority kinda make BSN a murky place. While it isn't bad as some other places of the Internet, it makes up for it with really toxic and unappreciative users.


So, being a fan implies that everything that comes from BW must be appreciated?

You can read the toxicity in these forums as a sign that BW is not doing things correctly. Or, you can just say that fans that complain are not legitimate. 


Puh-leeze. I'm pretty sure that Sweawm doesn't mean that everyone should rain praise on BW for every little thing that they do. It's just that there are some fans here who can't voice their criticisms or concerns without coming across like they're psychotic - and they happen to be very noisy and fractious. Those kinds of fans are the ones who end up creating a toxic, unpleasant environment, and the onus is on them, not BioWare.

As far as I'm concerned, the toxicity is not a "sign that BW is not doing things correctly." It's a sign that some fans simply can't act like the adults that they presumably are. They seem to feel that it's perfectly okay to hurl highly abusive language (and even death threats) at other people (e.g., the devs) just because they're out of sorts over a game.

I think fans should voice their criticisms - and I've certainly agreed on things such as the recycled environment issue in DA2 - but some of them need to get their acts together and learn to articulate their concerns/dislikes without ranting and raving like lunatics.

#108
Angrywolves

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How does making a game compare to....running a restaurant ? We've all seen Kitchen Nightmares haven't we ? If the food tastes bad at a restaurant, people won't eat there. If the players don't like the games they won't buy them . A fan isn't some nutcase that can always be rejected/neglected. That fan is also a customer , as I am sure Gordon Ramsey would point out.
Game company creators like Ninja Stan cited, who want to set up in their ivory towers, turn up their noses and not read the comments do so at their peril. shrugs.

#109
frostajulie

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I find it "hilarious" that some people believe dismissing "fanboys" with name-calling and insults is a good representation of their side of an argument. Warning: name-calling and insults are not permitted on the BSN, and they are not valid counters to an argument.


Funny that you start here

Ninja Stan wrote...
No, he called you a negative dink because you were acting like a negative dink. You were boorish, arrogant, and believed your dislike of BioWare entitled you to be rude and condescending to others. You are exhibiting similar behaviour in this thread.


And end here.  I am to assume the term that was name calling on my part was fanboys?

Ninja Stan wrote...
Thank you for reading this far, everyone. I welcome questions, concerns, and counter-arguments, but I do not tolerate rudeness or other bad behaviour.


Unless it is directed at someone with a veiwpoint you don't like- Not that being called boorish, arrogant, condescending, or dink are names exactly... but well they aren't terms of endearment either.

Its okay dude I got thick skin and I can take it.

The one part of your post I take umbrage with is this part

Ninja Stan wrote...
your dislike of BioWare entitled you to be rude and condescending to others.

I was not rude a question was asked I gave my input.

I did not know pointing out what was common knowledge and had been said by the devs was being rude and condescending. No part of what I posted was rude I flat out said what had already been said Bioware does not care if parts of the fanbase like the game or not. I am truly flabbergasted that this was considered rude and boorish and arrogant when I brought it up. The fact that I was considered rude and condescending was startling to me but upon further reflection I think it was because I was the one who brought it up and not someone at Bioware.

In this thread I thought I was pretty balanced and I have no dislike of Bioware. I love Bioware games I figured my long post was evidenced of my own fanboy fanaticism.  I do have criticisms and I won't stop voicing them with the rest of the rabble. But I also try to post about the stuff I like.

I think the responses to my post here and in the dink thread are evidences, in part of the staff defensiveness. But they are also in part due to me and the way I phrase things. And yeah my sarcastic attitude.

I will also say I am sorry fanboy was so offensive but  in my own pitiful defense I will say its no worse than being called a whiner, entitled crybaby, butthurt etc, all names I have been called in the past by elements of the forum which I took as part of the vernacular maybe this is what is meant by "toxic" I don't know, but I was a part of the xena forums in the 90's and This place is disney by comparison so I for one don't really get the toxicity remarks Been here since DAO and we debate, we get heated, but many of the threads are exciting and fun because of the diverse opinions so maybe what others view as toxic I see as normal.

Modifié par frostajulie, 15 juin 2013 - 04:03 .


#110
Angrywolves

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I've been called, mean I believe it was. People often confuse sarcasm with meanness or evil intent.

For the last time then, and yes I have been repeating myself. But no more after this.
There are some of us who are skeptics. We have our doubts about Bioware. Maybe because "evil EA" owns you and yes it like they possess the soul of Bioware . Maybe it's because of what Brent K nowles said. Maybe it because some fans feel DA2 and ME3 were flops. So some fans are skeptical and mistrusting.
Ultimately though I believe we want DAI to be a success.

#111
Ninja Stan

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Angrywolves wrote...

How does making a game compare to....running a restaurant ? We've all seen Kitchen Nightmares haven't we ? If the food tastes bad at a restaurant, people won't eat there. If the players don't like the games they won't buy them .

You're absolutely correct, though with the right marketing, such a restaurant may still get diners. Consider the recent boruhaha over that Kitchen Nightmares couple who apparently couldn't take criticism and attacked people over social media. Allegedly, they quietly reopened their restaurant and continue to get diners. Perhaps not many, perhaps not enough to keep the business afloat, but they still get diners.

A fan isn't some nutcase that can always be rejected/neglected. That fan is also a customer , as I am sure Gordon Ramsey would point out.

Correct, though a customer would get thrown out of that restaurant if he started screaming and yelling about the restaurant's perceived faults, and if he did so every time he ate there and found something he disliked, regardless of anyone else's experience.

In this case, however, no fan is "always" being rejected or neglected, despite the bad behaviour of a small section of the fanbase on forums and social media.

Game company creators like Ninja Stan cited, who want to set up in their ivory towers, turn up their noses and not read the comments do so at their peril. shrugs.

The "peril" you mention is that they will be reading a bunch of subjective experiences being trotted out as objective fact, reactionary responses to change, conspiracy theories, insults and name-calling, predictions on what will and won't sell, and demands for changes without regard for anyone else's experiences.

This is not ivory-tower developers being so snooty as to ignore the pleas of the common man. This is passionate people proud of their work not wanting to hear countless people crapping over the baby they've been slaving over for two years. These are developers who get lambasted, interrogated, and shamed whenever they try to engage in discussion with the community. These are talented professionals who get told how to do their jobs by armchair developers who want their jobs. These are creative people who are told by their alleged "fans" that they are lazy, greedy corporate shills who lie to fans, don't care about their fans, and should be fired. That is hardly the basis for either productive discussion or any kind of regular interaction.

And who loses out in this situation? Those mature, civilized fans who actually want productive discussion and interaction with the developers of the games that have affected them so. You can criticize a game without being a jerkface about it. You can disagree with other community members without the name-calling and insults. You can love the game and hate parts of it, and you can hate the game but still love parts of it. And you can have subjective experiences without being "right" or "wrong" about it.

Even when I was a developer, there was a handful of community members with whom I could not interact because of their hateful attitude. They were exceedingly negative all the time, could not say a single constructive or nice thing about the game they professed to be a fan of, and they could not hold a conversation without acting like they were the only gamer who needed to enjoy the game. This is the danger of believing one knows the "right" way to design a game, that one is entitled to receive it if one anticipates a game hard enough, and that one has the right--nay, the duty--to crow about its faults and shortcomings at every opportunity to prevent themselves from ever being disappointed again.

And through it all, "regular" people can discuss what they like and not like about the game, productively and constructively, without any trouble. There is a difference, and if you can't (or won't) see that, you might find fewer and fewer people want to deal with you.

#112
Phonantiphon

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-double post- :pinched:

Modifié par bassmunkee, 19 juin 2013 - 05:28 .


#113
Phonantiphon

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Ninja Stan wrote...
This is not ivory-tower developers being so snooty as to ignore the pleas of the common man. This is passionate people proud of their work not wanting to hear countless people crapping over the baby they've been slaving over for two years. These are developers who get lambasted, interrogated, and shamed whenever they try to engage in discussion with the community. These are talented professionals who get told how to do their jobs by armchair developers who want their jobs. These are creative people who are told by their alleged "fans" that they are lazy, greedy corporate shills who lie to fans, don't care about their fans, and should be fired. That is hardly the basis for either productive discussion or any kind of regular interaction.

And who loses out in this situation? Those mature, civilized fans who actually want productive discussion and interaction with the developers of the games that have affected them so. You can criticize a game without being a jerkface about it. You can disagree with other community members without the name-calling and insults. You can love the game and hate parts of it, and you can hate the game but still love parts of it. And you can have subjective experiences without being "right" or "wrong" about it.

Even when I was a developer, there was a handful of community members with whom I could not interact because of their hateful attitude. They were exceedingly negative all the time, could not say a single constructive or nice thing about the game they professed to be a fan of, and they could not hold a conversation without acting like they were the only gamer who needed to enjoy the game. This is the danger of believing one knows the "right" way to design a game, that one is entitled to receive it if one anticipates a game hard enough, and that one has the right--nay, the duty--to crow about its faults and shortcomings at every opportunity to prevent themselves from ever being disappointed again.

Hear hear.

I've been a fan of Bioware games for a long time now and a member of these forums for a while, I have had very little interaction with them however because of all the game forums I have been on I have found these forums to be unbelievably negative and aggressive.
Regardless of how people feel about the game that they play, that does not give them the entitlement to slag off the people who made it and/or the company they work for. 
You may play the game and like or not like it and these forums should be for folks to engage in intelligent and at least vaguely mature discussion with regards to their experiences and with regards to their opinions - (OPINIONS) - on what they would have liked to have seen, etc.
Sadly this does not happen a lot of the time nowadays and although it is a trend not limited to Bioware's forums - (Skyrim anyone?) - it is something that seems to be particularly rife here. This is a shame because all the people who engage in name-calling and insults and generally unconstructive lambasting are doing is spoiling it for others who end up just not being bothered to engage in what could be purposeful discussion and interesting exchanges of ideas and experiences.

Everyone thinks that they can do something better than someone else, particularly if it's a thing that they personally have a strong opinion about in a negative sense, but there is a difference between offering useful feedback and sitting at your keyboard and metaphorically throwing away all your toys in venomous diatribes against people who are ultimately more passionate about the product than you are, or think that you are.

I personally am a big fan of DAII - (currently replaying it in fact) - if that makes me a blinkered Fanboi then so be it, a blinkered fanboi I shall be. 
The thing that keeps forums dynamic; lively discussion and the exchange of ideas, are the very things that it seems to me are often  - (though not all the time by any means) - corrupted and wasted certainly if the evidence on display within these forums in the last few years is anything to go by.