173 réponses à ce sujet

[LoonySpectre]

In DA2, strictly speaking, there are no "4 bisexuals". There is only one "canonical" bisexual LI - Isabela. Other three are "player-sexuals": for MHawke, we have gay Anders, bisexual Fenris (if you don't romance him or Isabela, they hook up) and straight Merrill. For FHawke, we have straight Anders, straight Fenris (unless he willingly slept with Danarius in your headcanon) and lesbian Merrill (and straight asexual Sebastian, for that matter).

[ElitePinecone]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
Did *anyone* complain about the realism of the romances when they were all only opposite-gender?

Why would they have complained? It is entirely realistic. The probability of four people being straight in a random sample of four is roughly 65%...it is more likely that all four will be straight than that there is even a single homosexual or bisexual person among them. The likelihood of four people being bisexual in a random sample of four is roughly 0,000625%...

need I say more?

I assume you're also annoyed that we happened to assemble a possessed ex-Warden mage, an escaped Tevinter slave, the captain of the Kirkwall city guard, the Prince of Starkhaven, a Dalish blood-mage, a pirate AND a bestselling surface dwarf in the same party. 

Narrative conventions in Bioware games have never been realistic. By definition, events and characters in authored works don't act like real life.

[Xilizhra]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

The construction of this strawman has gone on long enough methinks.

The complaint is not that there are too many Gay characters.

The complaint is that there are too many PC-Sexual characters irrespective of all other variables.

Bioware needs to get back to writing strong characters in-of-themselves and allowing them to be interested in the PC based on background, interaction, and compatibility, which includes sexuality.

Absolutely no outcry occurred when Samatha or Steve were exclusives, there was no outcry that FemShep could not romance Tali or MaleShep could not bed Garrus...

...because those were established characters and those choices made sense.

A full slate of PC-Sexual characters is a lazy maneuver by writers who are prizing some self-satisfying sense of fan-service and political correctness over their old legacy of creating individual and unique characters that were not putty in the PC's hands.

No one complained about Samantha or Steve because they only existed to redress an existing imbalance. Using them is taking things out of context. And sexuality, in a universe that doesn't really care about orientation determining your worth as a person, really is not all that big a deal when it comes to shaping characters. Do you think Merrill would have been stronger straight or Fenris stronger gay? I don't see how.

[IceHawk-181]

ElitePinecone wrote...
More people can enjoy more content when every romancable character is open to both genders. Given the absence of resources to do separate gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight characters, it's the solution that makes the biggest selection of content open to the greatest number of people.

I love this little argument about "absence of resources" forcing the writers to make every character PC-Sexual.
 
Beyond your own interpretation of DG's complaints that he does not have a bottomless pit of cash to create every form of character he can think of do you have any evidence that indicates DA2 or DA3's development cycle cash flow actually forced this decision?

ElitePinecone wrote...
Throwing around words like 'pandering' and 'political correctness' hardly helps your case, if your concern is about characters and not the specific content. It's rather quaint and endearing to imagine someone yelling at a monitor about the gays infiltrating their videogames, but it does make it rather transparent that you're much more concerned about the particular type of romances than a great crusade for realism in Dragon Age.

Yeah, this argument you are having, the one where you are set against the hordes of homophobics assaulting you over the presence of "teh gayz" in their video game is only in your head.
 
Get over it.
 
Personally, I prefer realistic characterization.
Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 both did very good jobs in creating such characterizations in NPCs like Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, and Miranda. Steve and Samantha are also great examples, from the other side of the coin in ME3.
 
I prefer those kind of characters to PC-Sexual pawns of player fiat.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I prefer realistic characterization.
Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 both did very good jobs in creating such characterizations in NPCs like Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, and Miranda. Steve and Samantha are also great examples, from the other side of the coin in ME3.

I prefer those kind of characters to PC-Sexual pawns of player fiat.

But they're not. Their characterization doesn't depend on sexual orientation, and if it does somehow, then they're weak characters.

[Maclimes]

LoonySpectre wrote...

In DA2, strictly speaking, there are no "4 bisexuals". There is only one "canonical" bisexual LI - Isabela. Other three are "player-sexuals": for MHawke, we have gay Anders, bisexual Fenris (if you don't romance him or Isabela, they hook up) and straight Merrill. For FHawke, we have straight Anders, straight Fenris (unless he willingly slept with Danarius in your headcanon) and lesbian Merrill (and straight asexual Sebastian, for that matter).

Actually, Anders is canonically bisexual as well.

But otherwise, for what it's worth, I agree with you.

[IanPolaris]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Because male homosexual relationships were non-existant in Mass Effect until ME3. Steve being included was a positive thing for gay players. Most straight players didn't care, hence the few complaints came only from the bigots who did.
The lesbian relationships in the ME series were there to *pander* to straight males first and foremost because (girl on girl is hawt).
Do you have a problem with that sort of pandering BTW?

Now you seem to be leaping to conclusions about others (regarding the Samantha romance) and your fellow gamers that seem to be problematic.  I think it's mistake to lump all 'straight guys' into one put and say that Samantha was put in there for some hawt lezzy action.  In fact I find this rather offensive.

Now your point about the lack of Male to male relationships in ME until ME3 is a fair one, but it doesn't detract from my point at all.  If you want argue 'playersexuality' then you should be consistant about it, and you haven't been (and neither has Bioware).  This is why I specifically point out Samantha and Cortez.  I happen to like both characters very much, and I find their sexuality to be a believable and nice touch to each one, but saying that adding homosexual exclusive relationships is fine while defending hero-sexuality in general strikes me as intellectually inconsistant at best.

-Polaris

[Lennard Testarossa]

ElitePinecone wrote...
I assume you're also annoyed that we happened to assemble a possessed ex-Warden mage, an escaped Tevinter slave, the captain of the Kirkwall city guard, the Prince of Starkhaven, a Dalish blood-mage, a pirate AND a bestselling surface dwarf in the same party.

Why would I be annoyed? Your companions aren't a random sample of the population. The estimates only work because I assumed sexual orientation isn't correlated with the likelihood of ending up in the player's party.

[LoonySpectre]

Anders is canonically bisexual as well.

He doesn't say Karl was "his first" to female Hawke, just calls him a "friend". Whether he says that to conceal their more intimate relationship, is another thing.

[IceHawk-181]

Xilizhra wrote...
No one complained about Samantha or Steve because they only existed to redress an existing imbalance. Using them is taking things out of context. And sexuality, in a universe that doesn't really care about orientation determining your worth as a person, really is not all that big a deal when it comes to shaping characters. Do you think Merrill would have been stronger straight or Fenris stronger gay? I don't see how.

And there are no backlashes over Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, Tali....
 
Your focus on the homosexual characters indicates you care less for the strength of the story and the uniqueness of the characters and are more concerned with sexual politics inside a friggin video game.


Personally, I hated Fenris and leave him in his mansion for the entire game in all playthroughs and only romance Merril as FemHawke. Would they have been better characters with developed sexuality? Meh...personally I think DA2's writing and romance subplots were so poorly done that nothing could save them.

But I found that Hawke capable of sleeping with every single damn character other than Aveline, Varric, and his/her direct relatives ridiculous.

[sandalisthemaker]

IanPolaris wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Because male homosexual relationships were non-existant in Mass Effect until ME3. Steve being included was a positive thing for gay players. Most straight players didn't care, hence the few complaints came only from the bigots who did.
The lesbian relationships in the ME series were there to *pander* to straight males first and foremost because (girl on girl is hawt).
Do you have a problem with that sort of pandering BTW?

Now you seem to be leaping to conclusions about others (regarding the Samantha romance) and your fellow gamers that seem to be problematic.  I think it's mistake to lump all 'straight guys' into one put and say that Samantha was put in there for some hawt lezzy action.  In fact I find this rather offensive.

Now your point about the lack of Male to male relationships in ME until ME3 is a fair one, but it doesn't detract from my point at all.  If you want argue 'playersexuality' then you should be consistant about it, and you haven't been (and neither has Bioware).  This is why I specifically point out Samantha and Cortez.  I happen to like both characters very much, and I find their sexuality to be a believable and nice touch to each one, but saying that adding homosexual exclusive relationships is fine while defending hero-sexuality in general strikes me as intellectually inconsistant at best.

-Polaris

Oh okay, so now *you* are offended.
Yet you never bother to think that your stance is offensive to some.  (Hint:  the fact that you keep throwing around the word pandering- to whom? To gays of course- when Bioware is simply trying to be inclusive)

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 13 juin 2013 - 08:06 .

[ElitePinecone]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Personally, I prefer realistic characterization.
Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 both did very good jobs in creating such characterizations in NPCs like Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, and Miranda. Steve and Samantha are also great examples, from the other side of the coin in ME3.
 
I prefer those kind of characters to PC-Sexual pawns of player fiat.

Then why do you associate weak or unrealistic characterisation only with sexuality?

If Garrus and Morrigan were well-written characters, what does that have to do with their romances?

[Maclimes]

LoonySpectre wrote...

Anders is canonically bisexual as well.

He doesn't say Karl was "his first" to female Hawke, just calls him a "friend". Whether he says that to conceal their more intimate relationship, is another thing.

Well, in that case he's bisexual to mHawke, and straight to fHawke. (Regardless of your Hawke, Anders likes ladies, as evidenced by his previous appearance in Dragon Age: Awakening).

[IanPolaris]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Oh okay, so now *you* are offended.
Yet you never bother to think that your stance is offensive to some.

I haven't gone out of my way to group all homosexual males into a single form of behavior.  You did just that (except for heterosexual males).  That is why I was offended and I said so.  It's pretty much impossible to get through life without offending someone, but labelling a great number of people and then claiming they want only one thing isn't nice for anyone to do IMHO.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 juin 2013 - 08:09 .

[imbs]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Because male homosexual relationships were non-existant in Mass Effect until ME3. Steve being included was a positive thing for gay players. Most straight players didn't care, hence the few complaints came only from the bigots who did.
The lesbian relationships in the ME series were there to *pander* to straight males first and foremost because (girl on girl is hawt).
Do you have a problem with that sort of pandering BTW?

Now you seem to be leaping to conclusions about others (regarding the Samantha romance) and your fellow gamers that seem to be problematic.  I think it's mistake to lump all 'straight guys' into one put and say that Samantha was put in there for some hawt lezzy action.  In fact I find this rather offensive.

Now your point about the lack of Male to male relationships in ME until ME3 is a fair one, but it doesn't detract from my point at all.  If you want argue 'playersexuality' then you should be consistant about it, and you haven't been (and neither has Bioware).  This is why I specifically point out Samantha and Cortez.  I happen to like both characters very much, and I find their sexuality to be a believable and nice touch to each one, but saying that adding homosexual exclusive relationships is fine while defending hero-sexuality in general strikes me as intellectually inconsistant at best.

-Polaris

Oh okay, so now *you* are offended.
Yet you never bother to think that your stance is offensive to some.

Stop waving around that offended flag so proudly. How offended you are is less relevant than you think it is, and is certainly not some badge of honor. You are offended? So what?

[Xilizhra]

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No one complained about Samantha or Steve because they only existed to redress an existing imbalance. Using them is taking things out of context. And sexuality, in a universe that doesn't really care about orientation determining your worth as a person, really is not all that big a deal when it comes to shaping characters. Do you think Merrill would have been stronger straight or Fenris stronger gay? I don't see how.

And there are no backlashes over Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, Tali....
 
Your focus on the homosexual characters indicates you care less for the strength of the story and the uniqueness of the characters and are more concerned with sexual politics inside a friggin video game.


Personally, I hated Fenris and leave him in his mansion for the entire game in all playthroughs and only romance Merril as FemHawke. Would they have been better characters with developed sexuality? Meh...personally I think DA2's writing and romance subplots were so poorly done that nothing could save them.

But I found that Hawke capable of sleeping with every single damn character other than Aveline, Varric, and his/her direct relatives ridiculous.

Are you kidding? There was a huge following that wanted to romance Alistair as a male, quite a few who wanted Tali as a female, and I know plenty who'd have preferred a bisexual Morrigan. They didn't go into full-on forum rage hulk smash mode, which is possibly why you didn't notice it, but there were definitely many requests and quite a few people who felt left out because of the relationship imbalance that the game had going.

And while sexual politics may be a part of it, how about I just want more than one gorram person to romance?

[CuriousArtemis]

Cheylus wrote...

There was a time when people asked for dungeons, paladins, thieves, dark sorcerers, huntresses, dancers and Dragons in video games.

Now they ask for gay characters.

Perhaps because no one has ever had to ask for straight characters.

[sandalisthemaker]

IanPolaris wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Oh okay, so now *you* are offended.
Yet you never bother to think that your stance is offensive to some.

I haven't gone out of my way to group all homosexual males into a single form of behavior.  You did just that.  That is why I was offended and I said so.  It's pretty much impossible to get through life without offending someone, but labelling a great number of people and then claiming they want only one thing isn't nice for anyone to do IMHO.

-Polaris

I was stating the truth about why the S/S female relationships were there.
I added to my post. About why you are being offensive.

[sandalisthemaker]

imbs wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
Because male homosexual relationships were non-existant in Mass Effect until ME3. Steve being included was a positive thing for gay players. Most straight players didn't care, hence the few complaints came only from the bigots who did.
The lesbian relationships in the ME series were there to *pander* to straight males first and foremost because (girl on girl is hawt).
Do you have a problem with that sort of pandering BTW?

Now you seem to be leaping to conclusions about others (regarding the Samantha romance) and your fellow gamers that seem to be problematic.  I think it's mistake to lump all 'straight guys' into one put and say that Samantha was put in there for some hawt lezzy action.  In fact I find this rather offensive.

Now your point about the lack of Male to male relationships in ME until ME3 is a fair one, but it doesn't detract from my point at all.  If you want argue 'playersexuality' then you should be consistant about it, and you haven't been (and neither has Bioware).  This is why I specifically point out Samantha and Cortez.  I happen to like both characters very much, and I find their sexuality to be a believable and nice touch to each one, but saying that adding homosexual exclusive relationships is fine while defending hero-sexuality in general strikes me as intellectually inconsistant at best.

-Polaris

Oh okay, so now *you* are offended.
Yet you never bother to think that your stance is offensive to some.

Stop waving around that offended flag so proudly. How offended you are is less relevant than you think it is, and is certainly not some badge of honor. You are offended? So what?

You are talking to Polaris, yes?

[CuriousArtemis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Are you kidding? There was a huge following that wanted to romance Alistair as a male, quite a few who wanted Tali as a female, and I know plenty who'd have preferred a bisexual Morrigan. They didn't go into full-on forum rage hulk smash mode, which is possibly why you didn't notice it, but there were definitely many requests and quite a few people who felt left out because of the relationship imbalance that the game had going.

And while sexual politics may be a part of it, how about I just want more than one gorram person to romance?

Hear, hear 

The day straight gamers (or people who play straight characters) have to complain about having only one straight option while all the other options are gay... let's face it, is a day that's never going to happen lol

[Ninja Stan]

This discussion is getting heated really quickly. Let's cool it down if we want to keep the conversation going, okay?

[BioWareMod03]

Unfortunately this topic continues to stray so I am locking it down.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

IceHawk-181 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No one complained about Samantha or Steve because they only existed to redress an existing imbalance. Using them is taking things out of context. And sexuality, in a universe that doesn't really care about orientation determining your worth as a person, really is not all that big a deal when it comes to shaping characters. Do you think Merrill would have been stronger straight or Fenris stronger gay? I don't see how.

And there are no backlashes over Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, Tali....
 
Your focus on the homosexual characters indicates you care less for the strength of the story and the uniqueness of the characters and are more concerned with sexual politics inside a friggin video game.


Personally, I hated Fenris and leave him in his mansion for the entire game in all playthroughs and only romance Merril as FemHawke. Would they have been better characters with developed sexuality? Meh...personally I think DA2's writing and romance subplots were so poorly done that nothing could save them.

But I found that Hawke capable of sleeping with every single damn character other than Aveline, Varric, and his/her direct relatives ridiculous.

Are you kidding? There was a huge following that wanted to romance Alistair as a male, quite a few who wanted Tali as a female, and I know plenty who'd have preferred a bisexual Morrigan. They didn't go into full-on forum rage hulk smash mode, which is possibly why you didn't notice it, but there were definitely many requests and quite a few people who felt left out because of the relationship imbalance that the game had going.

And while sexual politics may be a part of it, how about I just want more than one gorram person to romance?

While there may have been a lot that wanted to, I saw very little complaints or angst either here or elsewhere that disliked that Garrus liked only the ladies or that Tali liked only the Guys and that's the important point.

As for the point that DAO should have had more options, well I've already said that I agreed (or all the options should have been removed), but IMHO player-sexuality is simply a cheap copout, lazy writing, or however you want to phrase it.  I also think it's pandering.

-Polaris

[IceHawk-181]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I prefer realistic characterization.
Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 both did very good jobs in creating such characterizations in NPCs like Morrigan, Alistair, Garrus, and Miranda. Steve and Samantha are also great examples, from the other side of the coin in ME3.

I prefer those kind of characters to PC-Sexual pawns of player fiat.

But they're not. Their characterization doesn't depend on sexual orientation, and if it does somehow, then they're weak characters.

I never said NPC characterization depends on sexuality; however sexuality and relationship status, specifically how they influence interactions with the PC are inherently important.
 
Steve is a great example; he is a Widower grieving over the loss of his husband. FemShep works to help him through his grief under no illusions that at the end of said process Steve is going to hop into bed with her.
 
If this was Dragon Age 2 or 3 you people would be demanding Steve get over it and just go for it...
 
Personally, I find the Steve romance sub-plot highly awkward and inappropriate from a Gay MaleShep point-of-view.
 
Then again I would also find it awkward and inappropriate if Garrus planted a big wet one on MaleShep after he stopped by to talk about calibrations or Miranda slapped my FemShep's butt on her way through the CiC.