204 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I just need the help of the Qunari (and THEIR mages). 

You said you were going to kill all of them.

[Nole]

TinuHawke wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

TinuHawke wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

But those mages cannot do anything but obey me.

So if you were born with magic, then you would find it normal that other people oppress you? Simply because you were born with it? 

Sorry, I'm not a mage.

 You don't chose to be a mage!

Bad luck then, obey the rules for the mages or you die.

[thats1evildude]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I just need the help of the Qunari (and THEIR mages). 

You said you were going to kill all of them.

No, the qunari have shown they know how to properly contain the mage threat.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 juin 2013 - 09:28 .

[Nole]

thats1evildude wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I just need the help of the Qunari (and THEIR mages). 

You said you were going to kill all of them.

No, the qunari have shown they know how to properly contain the mage threat.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

WittingEight65 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I just need the help of the Qunari (and THEIR mages). 

You said you were going to kill all of them.

No, the qunari have shown they know how to properly contain the mage threat.

Okay, but nonetheless I think its understandable I was confused for a second.

(Also, do the saarebas know how to do the Joining? Because, you know, my guess is they don't. And that's part of why the mages are needed.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2013 - 09:32 .

[Tinu]

Morocco Mole wrote...

TinuHawke wrote...

So if you were born with magic, then you would find it normal that other people oppress you? Simply because you were born with it? 

Yes

[Nole]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I just need the help of the Qunari (and THEIR mages). 

You said you were going to kill all of them.

No, the qunari have shown they know how to properly contain the mage threat.

Okay, but nonetheless I think its understandable I was confused for a second.

(Also, do the saarebas know how to do the Joining? Because, you know, my guess is they don't. And that's part of why the mages are needed.)

The Grey Wardens can teach them how to.

[Medhia Nox]

Since people make up Dragon Age lore all the time (like all mages everyone being "slaves") - we can only really say: The Joining and Wardens are the only way we know of that can kill Archdemons.

Kill all the Darkspawn - and you won't have any more archdemons. A little more pro-active than waiting for the world ending threat nobody will believe until it's "almost" too late to show up.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

WittingEight65 wrote...

The Grey Wardens can teach them how to.

Fair enough. Next question: What will you do if the Wardens themselves come after you? They know that mages are necessary, and why. Who's to say they won't turn on you the second you show what you're about?

Question after: What makes you think the Qunari will side with you at all?

If the answer to either of these questions is "I don't know," you might be working for the darkspawn.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Since people make up Dragon Age lore all the time (like all mages everyone being "slaves") - we can only really say: The Joining and Wardens are the only way we know of that can kill Archdemons.

Kill all the Darkspawn - and you won't have any more archdemons. A little more pro-active than waiting for the world ending threat nobody will believe until it's "almost" too late to show up.

The dwarves are already trying. It's not going well.

[Dave of Canada]

TinuHawke wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anders doesn't care if it's futile, he's a lunatic that believes it's better to go down fighting than remaining in the Circles.

You don't have to be a lunatic to believe in what you're fighting for. Being oppressed is a valid reason for fighting back.

He can fight all he wants, doesn't mean he isn't insane in his logic due to Vengeance. He believes any mage who doesn't fight back is just as bad as the Templar, doesn't mean it's valid.

[Nole]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

The Grey Wardens can teach them how to.

Fair enough. Next question: What will you do if the Wardens themselves come after you? They know that mages are necessary, and why. Who's to say they won't turn on you the second you show what you're about?

Question after: What makes you think the Qunari will side with you at all?

If the answer to either of these questions is "I don't know," you might be working for the darkspawn.

I have my persuasion skill maxed my friend, gg.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

WittingEight65 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

The Grey Wardens can teach them how to.

Fair enough. Next question: What will you do if the Wardens themselves come after you? They know that mages are necessary, and why. Who's to say they won't turn on you the second you show what you're about?

Question after: What makes you think the Qunari will side with you at all?

If the answer to either of these questions is "I don't know," you might be working for the darkspawn.

I have my persuasion skill maxed my friend, gg.

And that will be enough? Hint, no. Remember that persuade check to stop Paedan from attacking you, where it never works even if you pass? Max persuade won't be enough to get the saarebas answering to you, though if you're willing to volunteer for the Qun I'll just bet they're willing to treat you like you treat mages.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2013 - 10:05 .

[Avaflame]

Charter boat? What charter boat?

[Sontemuka]

TinuHawke wrote...

You don't have to be a lunatic to believe in what you're fighting for. Being oppressed is a valid reason for fighting back.

This. SO MUCH This.
At first I killed Anders and was a Pro-Templar. I always looked for peacefuly solutions but i thought than the Templar's duty was to protect the citizens from the magic, so... "i must stand with them" was what I said. Then I realize... that's all because the opression and control over the mages, they're a kind of slaves.

We lock them all mages because MAYBE A FEW can be dangerous? Common...

[Fuggyt]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

I think the mage threat is exaggerated.  There's an inherent contradiction in the situation.  Either the mages are numerous and powerful enough to resist or they are not.  If they are, then the Templars could never have rounded up and controlled them all in the first place, nor, for that matter, would the Tevinter Imperium ever have fallen.  If they are not, then Anders's act of terrorism is a desperately futile gesture than can only lead to the genocide of all mages and the Circles are merely the repressive products of superstition, paranoia, and greed for power.

The mages were willingly accepting the Circle system as the best thing all around; that's how they were all rounded up, because they put up with it. Anders does not believe it to be the best option, and thus scares the Templars into cracking down so far that the mages have no choice but to revolt.

As for why this didn't happen sooner, remember that Templars are supposed to be able to counter magic. Thus, they can defend themselves from a rebellious mage. A large part of the reason mages are supposed to be scary is that most non-mages cannot do this.

As for the Tevinter Imperium, it never did fall. Not really. It lost a lot of power, due to the Blights (remember that the spawn have mages too) and the slave revolt (which took advantage of this chaos and some well-timed natural disasters), but Minrathous itself has never been breached and it still has territories under it. Make of that what you will.

I make of it that you agree with me.  Mages are not now and never were numerous or powerful enough to resist all the other various powers in Thedas.  Their threat is exaggerated for political and social ends.

The first mage volunteers were from Val Royeaux who only thought a Circle would be the "best thing all around" when compared to an Exalted March or a lifetime as a magical Zippo lighter for the lamps in the Chantry.  That's a far cry from suggesting the system was established with the voluntary cooperation of mages in general.  Besides, even if that were case when the Circles were founded, it is not the case now, when children are torn from their homes between 6 and 12 years old.  Most parents are not like Jowan's, anxious to rid their hands of their demon child.  Religious indoctrination goes only so far.  Most parents naturally dread the Templars and many go to great lengths to hide their "special needs" children from them, sometimes, as  Redcliffe learned, with tragic results.  So if mages were particularly numerous in the population, there would already be a significant resistance underground among the parents.  But there's not.

And although Tevinter has not gone away, its decline confirms the point.  Clearly, Tevinter's fortunes have been shaped by the way it has regulated magic, not by the magic itself.  The Tevinter empire was built on slavery which fueled not only its economy but also more powerful (and darker) magics.  So once it declined and could no longer import slaves from lost provinces or depopulated districts, it became too weak to recapture its territories but remained too strong to eradicate.  Whether they were overrun by a Blight, an Exalted March, a slave rebellion, or a plague of nugs is beside the point.  The point is that once they fell they'd never be able to get all the way back up, similar to the strategic situation faced by Justinian and his successors. Byzantium was as impregnable as Minrathous until the invention of artillery.  The magisters still had the spells but they lacked the conventional means to acquire the resources needed to cast them.  Otherwise, if the mages of Tevinter are numerous or powerful enough in and of themselves to reconquer Thedas, why haven't they?

It seems that confining lots of mages in one place is the cause of Tevinterism, not its cure.  Consider Rivain.  Numerous mages live outside the Circle there, many of them revered as wise women and associated with the pre-Chantry traditions.  There they are, completely unsupervised or out of control, apparently either too weak, too few, or just too disinterested to invite a Divine March on the abominations and pride demons rampaging through Llomerryn.

It is often argued that the Circles are necessary to train mages lest they become abominations which, we are frequently reminded, can level a city block.  But the Circle's idea of training is to toss an apprentice to a demon and kill his body if he loses his soul.  A fairly high percentage have to fail, because otherwise nobody would even consider Tranquility as an alternative nor would the Harrowing be a secret.  Evidence suggests this is the wrong way to go about it.  If as high a percentage of apostates spontaneously turned into abominations as fail the Harrowing, then you'd have a point, because they'd be popping out on a regular basis everywhere in Thedas and twice in Rivain.  But such is not the case.  Flemeth taught Morrigan, apparently by progressive exposure, and she's a lot wiser to the ways of the Fade than wonderful Wynne is.  Bethany and Mage Hawke were taught by their father by methods unknown but obviously effective.  Cruel, useless, and unnecessary, the Harrowing can only persist because mages as a class are not numerous or powerful enough to resist its enforcement.

So we agree.  The mage threat is exaggerated. 

Modifié par Fuggyt, 13 juin 2013 - 11:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sontemuka wrote...

TinuHawke wrote...

You don't have to be a lunatic to believe in what you're fighting for. Being oppressed is a valid reason for fighting back.

This. SO MUCH This.
At first I killed Anders and was a Pro-Templar. I always looked for peacefuly solutions but i thought than the Templar's duty was to protect the citizens from the magic, so... "i must stand with them" was what I said. Then I realize... that's all because the opression and control over the mages, they're a kind of slaves.

We lock them all mages because MAYBE A FEW can be dangerous? Common...

How much damage can those few do? Leaving Anders aside, since he's an extremely rare case, what about Connor? Abominations at all are a rare case, but what can one abomination do?

[WhiteKnyght]

The only threat comes from armed and armored zealots who shank people with their swords because "The Maker says so."

The Chantry likes to put down Tevinter for being an evil expansionist empire ruled by magic, yet at the same time they support Orlais, which is an evil expansionist empire ruled by people with swords.

Loghain's prejudice may have been wrong, but considering that Chevaliers made him and his father watch as their commander raped and murdered his mother just for not paying their taxes, I can understand it.

[Who is that Masked Man]

Filament wrote...

This mage threat-

Yeah, it was probably a templar who did that. They've clearly been dipping into the Red Lyrium again.

[Lulupab]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Those few can do a lot of damage and kill a lot of innocent people with just one mistake.

As Anders himself proved

You can't opress then opress more and then even opress more and not to expect resistance. Anders is a mage version of Templars. His methods were not any less extreme than people who imprisoned him for 10 years. Don't forget even if you kill Anders Justice is among us, imagine the horror of he find a host like Feynriel. The next morning all templars dead in their sleep. War over.

[MisterJB]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The only threat comes from armed and armored zealots who shank people with their swords because "The Maker says so."

I'm not certain I can agree you, I need a third opinion.
Here, let me ask this woman from Redcliff who does she think is the real threat.