443 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

I don't think anyone can deny that Shep had plot armor but the title of the thread is "Who has the MOST plot armor" Shepard has died and can die permenately in ME2.

And if he does the game ends.  Not sure how that is relevant.  Plot armor to me is not a character not being able to die.  It is when the plot of the story is written in such a way that a character survives when all logic would dictate he/she should have died.

I can't think of any other character in the story that survives 3 situations in which death should be 100% guaranteed.  

There is no explanation that adequately explains how Shep's body survives in order for it to be ressurected after he dies, enters a planets atmosphere and hits the ground.  None.

There is no logical reason Shep should be able to dodge 2 bullets when she woke up in pain and then one punch two fully armed guards.

There is no logical reason for the Catalyst to invite Shep up to the Citadel and allow him to decide the fate of the universe instead of having marauders there to kill him if he chooses destroy.

Those are 3 monumental plot holes that change the nature of the game.  Now give me 3 instances in which Liara and Liara alone should have died but does not?  Or any other character.

[David7204]

None of those examples are plot armor.

[David7204]

Fixers0 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'd love to. All you have to do is post that on the Plot Armor page. And keep reposting it once I take it down, of course.

But that means you're lying once again, as not only can't you deny that Shepard doesn't have plot armour, but now your claim that plenty of people agree with you is based on nothing.

No, that's just to draw attention to it. You could post it, and I could ignore it, but it would probably take a while for the entry to be removed. A couple of days, at least. But if you post and keep posting it, that will get someone's attention pretty quickly.

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...
No, that's just to draw attention to it. You could post it, and I could ignore it, but it would probably take a while for the entry to be removed. A couple of days, at least. But if you post and keep posting it, that will get someone's attention pretty quickly.

But the entry your refer appearntly doesn't exsist, which means also directly both your claims are rubbish, as i've said from the beginning.

[David7204]

What the hell are you talking about? What entry?

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

What the hell are you talking about? What entry?

The one mention in your posts, perhaps, that  nonexistant post your constantly taking about?

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

And if he does the game ends.  Not sure how that is relevant.  Plot armor to me is not a character not being able to die.  It is when the plot of the story is written in such a way that a character survives when all logic would dictate he/she should have died.

That is also plot armor. If Shep dies in gameplay you get the game over screen but can come back, that's also a form of plot armor. However, Shepard dies very logically at the start of ME2. The writers could have very well had gone with another lead after that but pulled a "back from the dead" on us. I'm glad they did.

At the end of ME2, Shepard can die, For real and for good. Sure he's in ME3. But if he's dead in a players import, they can't import it to ME3 and start playing as a living Shepard. In that story Shepard is super dead and isn't coming back. Period.

I've already listed three ways Liara avoids death or even being put in a situation that can cause her death.

Now come up with any instance in all three game where Liara has ever died? Now if you don't want to accept my definition of plot armor, that's up to you. But don't ask me to prove my point based soley on your definition.

edit: Okay you guys are now clearly editting wiki shyt to prove a point. sort of childish now. :innocent:

Modifié par Hazegurl, 15 juin 2013 - 08:41 .

[David7204]

Yes. The entry doesn't exist yet. I'm suggesting you write it and put it in so that it does exist.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

None of those examples are plot armor.

The only reason Shep is alive in any of those scenarios is because it is a game.  Let's take the first one.  Explain to me how Shepard acheieved enough velocity to enter a planet's atmosphere when for example an object has to travel say 17k km per second to be able to re-enter earth?  Explain to me how Shep does not burn up upon re-entry when an object traveling that fast would essentially turn his space suit into an oven?  Finally explain to me how an object travelling that fast can hit the ground and not be destroyed?

And before you claim that the planet may have a lower velocity due to less gravity for example like the moon, here is the planet codex.  The planet is 1.76 times the mass of earth and has atmospheric pressure of .83atm.  Not to mention, the atmosphere consists of Methan which is highly flammable and Shep would be generate sparks and heat as his body plunges through the atmosphere. 

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

Yes. The entry doesn't exist yet. I'm suggesting you write it and put it in so that it does exist.

But I have no intention to, so why would I? My intention has been, and now it's accomplished, that you've made not only but even two false claims.

[David7204]

remydat wrote...

David7204 wrote...

None of those examples are plot armor.

The only reason Shep is alive in any of those scenarios is because it is a game.  Let's take the first one.  Explain to me how Shepard acheieved enough velocity to enter a planet's atmosphere when for example an object has to travel say 17k km per second to be able to re-enter earth?  Explain to me how Shep does not burn up upon re-entry when an object traveling that fast would essentially turn his space suit into an oven?  Finally explain to me how an object travelling that fast can hit the ground and not be destroyed?

And before you claim that the planet may have a lower velocity due to less gravity for example like the moon, here is the planet codex.  The planet is 1.76 times the mass of earth and has atmospheric pressure of .83atm.  Not to mention, the atmosphere consists of Methan which is highly flammable and Shep would be generate sparks and heat as his body plunges through the atmosphere. 

Explain to me why exactly an object has to be moving 17,000,000 meters per second to re-enter Earth.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 08:44 .

[dgcatanisiri]

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Liara believes everything you just said Cerberus believes about Shep.   It is laughable to hate on Liara and then act like some old dude spending billions of dollars to revive Shep is somehow more understandable.  It isn't.  This bullsh*t that Shep is worth an army which is how much money was allegedly spent to revive him was just said by the writers to make TIM look less like a creepy old dude with a Shep fetish.  Liara knew Shep personally and saw him in action personally.  What's TIM's excuse?

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

[David7204]

Fixers0 wrote...

But I have no intention to, so why would I? My intention has been, and now it's accomplished, that you've made not only but even two false claims.

You literally just said you want to confront people who deny that Shepard has Plot Armor. I'm offering you an opportunity to do exactly that. Now you say you have no intention of doing so?

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

That is also plot armor. If Shep dies in gameplay you get the game over screen but can come back, that's also a form of plot armor. However, Shepard dies very logically at the start of ME2. The writers could have very well had gone with another lead after that but pulled a "back from the dead" on us. I'm glad they did.

At the end of ME2, Shepard can die, For real and for good. Sure he's in ME3. But if he's dead in a players import, they can't import it to ME3 and start playing as a living Shepard. In that story Shepard is super dead and isn't coming back. Period.

I've already listed three ways Liara avoids death or even being put in a situation that can cause her death.

Now come up with any instance in all three game where Liara has ever died? Now if you don't want to accept my definition of plot armor, that's up to you. But don't ask me to prove my point based soley on your definition.

If the writers write logical ways for a character to avoid death then that is not plot armor in my book.  If they write illogical ways for a character to avoid death then it is plot armor.  Or to be more precise, I don't mind if you consider both plot armor but one is more reasonable than the other.  The plot should make sense.  If the plot makes sense and Liara survives, I have less of a problem with it than if the plot doesn't make sense and Liara survives.

So I am asking you what examples there are when Liara survives when logically she should not have.  I am not talking about story preferences or what you would have preferred to see.  I am talking about examples where she survives with no logical explanation that explains her survival.

The point being made is that there is no way there is suppose to be a body for anyone to ressurect at the start of ME2.  See my response to David.  A body can't survive re-entry given Alchera's stats.  It simply can't.

[David7204]

I want you to explain to me why an object has to be moving at 17,000,000 meters per second to enter Earth's atmosphere.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 08:51 .

[Fixers0]

David7204 wrote...

You literally just said you want to confront people who deny that Shepard has Plot Armor. I'm offering you an opportunity to do exactly that. Now you say you have no intention of doing so?

Actually, thats false once again, that's three  now,  you've made a claim that supposedly plenty of people agree with you position, I then asked if you could show these people, which you appearantly can't, and instead you just twist my words, The're a perfect word for that fallacy, you've made there, you know.

Modifié par Fixers0, 15 juin 2013 - 08:52 .

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Explain to me why exactly an object has to be moving 17,000,000 meters per second to re-enter Earth.

It's 17k per hour not second.  Got that bit wrong.  And the answer to that question is revealed in the Apollo 13 movie.  If an object is not travelling fast enough, it bounces off the atmosphere of the planet and hurtles off into space.  That was one of the main problems with the Apollo 13 mission.  When their thrusters were damaged, NASA had to come up with enough velocity to allow the ship to enter earth because if they tried to and failed they would careen off into space FOREVER.

http://en.wikipedia....spheric_reentry

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 08:53 .

[David7204]

 "If an object is not traveling fast enough, it bounces off the atmosphere of the planet and hurtles off into space"

That's your explanation.

Can you point out the part of the Wikipedia article where it says an object must be moving at at least 4,700 meters per second to enter Earth? Or any velocity? I can't seem to find it.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:01 .

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Yes. 17,000 kilometers per second. 17,000,000 meters per second. Exactly the same thing.

"If an object is not traveling fast enough, it bounces off the atmosphere of the planet and hurtles off into space"

That's your explanation.

That's not my explanation.  That is the science.  And again, I got the specific numbers wrong.  It is several thousand milles per second.  So explain how Shep was able to go from floating in space to several thousand miles per hour while unconscious.

[David7204]

Can you point out the part of the Wikipedia article where it says an object must be moving at at least 4,700 meters per second to enter Earth? I can't seem to find it.

[s-jay2676]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Liara believes everything you just said Cerberus believes about Shep.   It is laughable to hate on Liara and then act like some old dude spending billions of dollars to revive Shep is somehow more understandable.  It isn't.  This bullsh*t that Shep is worth an army which is how much money was allegedly spent to revive him was just said by the writers to make TIM look less like a creepy old dude with a Shep fetish.  Liara knew Shep personally and saw him in action personally.  What's TIM's excuse?

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

That's not obsession. Wouldn't you keep a photo or an object, that belonged to a deceased friend of yours, in your home to remember him or her by?

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Can you point out the part of the Wikipedia article where it says an object must be moving at at least 4,700 meters per second to enter Earth? I can't seem to find it.

Is Nasa good enough for you.

http://www.grc.nasa....GH/hihyper.html

[Ledgend1221]

Liara.

[David7204]

Gosh, Wikipedia doesn't say anything like that, huh? That's interesting.

Could you point out the part of the NASA article where it says an object must be moving at a certain velocity to enter atmosphere? I can't seem to find it.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 09:07 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Kahlee Sanders and Joker.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 15 juin 2013 - 09:07 .