443 réponses à ce sujet

[Ledgend1221]

s-jay2676 wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Liara believes everything you just said Cerberus believes about Shep.   It is laughable to hate on Liara and then act like some old dude spending billions of dollars to revive Shep is somehow more understandable.  It isn't.  This bullsh*t that Shep is worth an army which is how much money was allegedly spent to revive him was just said by the writers to make TIM look less like a creepy old dude with a Shep fetish.  Liara knew Shep personally and saw him in action personally.  What's TIM's excuse?

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

That's not obsession. Wouldn't you keep a photo or an object, that belonged to a deceased friend of yours, in your home to remember him or her by?

You keep a photo, not the clothes he's buried in.

[lecho_himself]

As far as I know, the only Normandy crew member that is basically unreplaceable through the series is... Joker )

There can be another commander if Shep dies on suicide mission, there can be another crew/EDI control, you can change the doctor, most team members can also die... but you cant have anyone else operate the Normandy.

The one and only possible way for him to die is low EMS ending = Normandy destroyed. That's more powerful "plot armor" than Liara's - pretty good for a guy whose bones brake when wind blows

Modifié par lecho_himself, 15 juin 2013 - 09:12 .

[s-jay2676]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Liara believes everything you just said Cerberus believes about Shep.   It is laughable to hate on Liara and then act like some old dude spending billions of dollars to revive Shep is somehow more understandable.  It isn't.  This bullsh*t that Shep is worth an army which is how much money was allegedly spent to revive him was just said by the writers to make TIM look less like a creepy old dude with a Shep fetish.  Liara knew Shep personally and saw him in action personally.  What's TIM's excuse?

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

That's not obsession. Wouldn't you keep a photo or an object, that belonged to a deceased friend of yours, in your home to remember him or her by?

You keep a photo, not the clothes he's buried in.

And how do you know she even had a photo? Besides, the armor has a symbolic character, it's an object, that every player recognizes. A photo, on the other hand, wouldn't work, because my Shepard looks probably different than yours, wouldn't you agree?

[TheMyron]

CynicalShep wrote...

Conrad. There is no way someone as stupid as him should be able to live so long.

Not really, he had three chances to die, see here: http://social.biowar...21/polls/45962/

All you have to do is take the correct steps.

[s-jay2676]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Liara believes everything you just said Cerberus believes about Shep.   It is laughable to hate on Liara and then act like some old dude spending billions of dollars to revive Shep is somehow more understandable.  It isn't.  This bullsh*t that Shep is worth an army which is how much money was allegedly spent to revive him was just said by the writers to make TIM look less like a creepy old dude with a Shep fetish.  Liara knew Shep personally and saw him in action personally.  What's TIM's excuse?

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

That's not obsession. Wouldn't you keep a photo or an object, that belonged to a deceased friend of yours, in your home to remember him or her by?

You keep a photo, not the clothes he's buried in.

And how do you know she even had a photo? Besides, the armor has a symbolic character, it's an object, that every player recognizes. A photo, on the other hand, wouldn't work, because my Shepard looks probably different than yours, wouldn't you agree?

I'd get some pretty weird looks if someone I had a crush on died and I decided to put their bloodied clothes on display in my living room, I'm just sayin'.

Did you even read what I wrote? Does symbolic character mean anything to you, or do you take every small detail in the game literally?

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Gosh, Wikipedia doesn't say anything like that, huh? That's interesting.

Could you point out the part of the NASA article where it says an object must be moving at a certain velocity to enter atmosphere? I can't seem to find it.

Second paragraph. 

As a spacecraft re-enters the earth's atmosphere, it is traveling very much faster than the speed of sound. The aircraft is said to be hypersonic. Typical low earth orbit re-entry speeds are near 17,500 mph and the Mach number M is nearly twenty five, M < 25.

The below is perhaps the best answer and it comes directly from a NASA engineer.

http://www.nasa.gov/...tlereentry.html

In short, an object has to achieve 7,900 meters a second to remain in orbit over earth.  If you are entering earth outside of orbit it is even faster 11,000 meters a second.  Once you start plumetting to earh gravity takes over and a ship has to actually fire its rockets backwards to prevent gravity from causing it to accelerate even faster. 

So Shep was never in orbit over Alchera and he never attained any sort of velocity that would have allowed him to punch past the orbital distance of Alchera to the point where gravity would have pulled him back to Alchera.  Further, even if he had achieved such a velocity, gravity would have accelerated him tremendously and without rockets to fire backwards to reduce his speed, he would exeprience temperatures that exceed something like 5000 degrees farenheit.

So it really is impossible dude.  Shep in the vid wasn't even going that fast and even if he was he would have burned up.

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 10:11 .

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

I'd love to. All you have to do is post that on the Plot Armor page. And keep reposting it once I take it down, of course.

Orwell would be so proud of you, David!

As for the topic at hand, too many to count. Kai Leng is probably the biggest for me though.

Modifié par someguy1231, 15 juin 2013 - 09:39 .

[Ledgend1221]

remydat wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Gosh, Wikipedia doesn't say anything like that, huh? That's interesting.

Could you point out the part of the NASA article where it says an object must be moving at a certain velocity to enter atmosphere? I can't seem to find it.

Second paragraph. 

As a spacecraft re-enters the earth's atmosphere, it is traveling very much faster than the speed of sound. The aircraft is said to be hypersonic. Typical low earth orbit re-entry speeds are near 17,500 mph and the Mach number M is nearly twenty five, M < 25.

The below is perhaps the best answer and it comes directly from a NASA engineer.

http://social.biowar...860982/16870768

In short, an object has to achieve 7,900 meters a second to remain in orbit over earth.  If you are entering earth outside of orbit it is even faster 11,000 meters a second.  Once you start plumetting to earh gravity takes over and a ship has to actually fire its rockets backwards to prevent gravity from causing it to accelerate even faster. 

So Shep was never in orbit over Alchera and he never attained any sort of velocity that would have allowed him to punch past the orbital distance of Alchera to the point where gravity would have pulled him back to Alchera.  Further, even if he had achieved such a velocity, gravity would have accelerated him tremendously and without rockets to fire backwards to reduce his speed, he would exeprience temperatures that exceed something like 5000 degrees farenheit.

So it really is impossible dude.  Shep in the vid wasn't even going that fast and even if he was he would have burned up.

Uh, that part you posted is just saying that it's going that fast, it never says you must be going that fast to get back in.

[Barquiel]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

remydat wrote...

Finn

Thats all good and well in our world where stuff like the lazarus program is impossible. However when the end result of Liara moving on would have been the galaxy dying at the hands of the reapers and the creation of a human reaper then still holding it against her is pretty silly. 

My question is, why did Liara have to be involved in this business in the first place? I COMPLETELY believe Cerberus seeking out Shepard's body to revive him/her all on their own, without assistance or prompting, for exactly the reasons given in game - symbolism, iconic image, someone who's proven they can stand against the Reapers... WHY did the writers decide they needed to make Liara complicit in this act? Hell, I've read Redemption, did they really even need Liara anyway? Why couldn't a Cerberus strike team have gone in to recover Shepard's body in the first place?

Because Bioware wanted to make money with these comic books. And believe it or not, a Liara centered story sells better than "some faceless Cerberus goons recover Shepard's body"

Modifié par Barquiel, 15 juin 2013 - 09:45 .

[remydat]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

Umm, most of the characters join the suicide mission because they are mercs or for other reasons.  Thane doesn't care about Shep being a Specter.  He joins because he wants one last hurray before he dies.  Zaed, Miranda, Jacob, Kasumi, Thane, Grunt, Mordin all likely join no matter who is in charge.  Only Garrus, Tali, and Legion likely join because of Shep and you can defeat the collectors without them.

I really don't understand your point.  On the one hand Shep is critical to saving the galaxy according to you but on the other he should have stayed dead so the galaxy could die? In game, Liara's decision saves the galalxy.  That is why Shep is not upset by it.  Bioware simply didn't want Shep to be a tool for crying about being saved and in so doing saving the galaxy.  That would be pretty f**king stupid.  Miranda wanted to make Shep a better tool/slave for Cerberus by installing a control chip.  Liara wanted to save her friend.  Not sure why you seem confused by these two vastly different motivations.

One of my former roommates served in the army.  He kept mementoes and keepsakes from people he served with that died.  The dog tags went to the families.  He exchanged stuff with those that lived as well.  That is not obsession, that is honoring the memory of a comrade in arms dead or alive.  If you can't understand the bond forged in war then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

[remydat]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Uh, that part you posted is just saying that it's going that fast, it never says you must be going that fast to get back in.

Yeah just realised I linked to another bioware section instead of too the NASA article.  Will have to find it again.

http://www.nasa.gov/...tlereentry.html

The above is the article I was suppose to link too earlier.  I have updated the link from the earlier post to include this so that response actually makes sense now, lol.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 10:12 .

[Ledgend1221]

remydat wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Uh, that part you posted is just saying that it's going that fast, it never says you must be going that fast to get back in.

Yeah just realised I linked to another bioware section instead of too the NASA article.  Will have to find it again.

http://www.nasa.gov/...tlereentry.html

The above is the article I was suppose to link too earlier.  I have updated the link from the earlier post to include this so that response actually makes sense now, lol.  Thanks for pointing it out.

I read that article and I don't see anything about a minium speed requirement to re-enter the atmopshere.

[dgcatanisiri]

remydat wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Cerberus is an organization founded on human dominance and control. The first human Spectre, the one who secured human power in the galaxy by defeating Sovereign and either defending or disposing the Council, is a powerful symbol that they would want to use. And Cerberus has a history of mad science - we saw this in 1, with the rachni and the creepers and the husks. It is easy to see them going to those lengths to ressurrect Shepard because established precedent puts it right up their alley. If it's human, if it's important, and if it involves mad science, Cerberus will go for it. And as TIM says, as a symbol, Shepard is invaluable - do you think that a team led by Miranda and Jacob would have managed to assemble the multi-species crew of specialists for the Suicide Mission? And, as a result of that mission, there was now a precedent for the species of the galaxy coming together to fight a bigger threat, groundwork for the multi-species alliances necessary for defeating the Reapers. No one BUT Shepard had the clout for that.

And I'm not saying that I don't hate on Cerberus and TIM for resurrecting Shepard or that I'm not pissed about them resurrecting Shepard. That's, in fact, my point. By handing Shepard's body to Cerberus for them to take that longshot chance of resurrecting Shepard, this means that Liara is COMPLICIT in the Frankensteinian science that Cerberus has engaged in. I believe in the idea of what is dead should stay dead. I believe Cerberus would be willing to disregard that in the name of humanity. But one of Shepard's friends? I would expect Shepard's friends to mourn and move on, not get hung up on how to get Shepard back - note that EVERY other squadmate has done this, except Liara. She is shoehorned into being involved in the process for no real reason, other than to seemingly set up her grudge against the Shadow Broker, which, really, could have been done a dozen other ways instead. But the writers chose to make her the one responsible for Cerberus getting Shepard to use as they saw fit? And we can't call her on this fact, except in one buried dialogue path that, if not taken, won't appear again and loops back to the standard conversation ender, and has no effect on Shepard's relationship with her whatsoever? We get the option to be upset with Miranda's desire for a Shepard control chip, but not at Liara for doing whatever with Shepard's body?

And on the 'obsession' thing, you don't think that keeping the burned
and scorched piece of Shepard's armor on display in her living room
counts as obsession? I know that there were a few Liaramancers who were given pause about that, imagine what it's like for those who don't. Or the fact that when pressed about her part in recovering Shepard's body, her reason is, and I quote 'because [she] couldn't let [Shepard] go'? If that were a romance exclusive line, with non-romance getting something alone the lines of 'only you could do what needed to be done against the Reapers,' while I admit that I would still be pissed, it still comes from a place I could accept and move on from. But it's what she says regardless.

Umm, most of the characters join the suicide mission because they are mercs or for other reasons.  Thane doesn't care about Shep being a Specter.  He joins because he wants one last hurray before he dies.  Zaed, Miranda, Jacob, Kasumi, Thane, Grunt, Mordin all likely join no matter who is in charge.  Only Garrus, Tali, and Legion likely join because of Shep and you can defeat the collectors without them.

I really don't understand your point.  On the one hand Shep is critical to saving the galaxy according to you but on the other he should have stayed dead so the galaxy could die? In game, Liara's decision saves the galalxy.  That is why Shep is not upset by it.  Bioware simply didn't want Shep to be a tool for crying about being saved and in so doing saving the galaxy.  That would be pretty f**king stupid.  Miranda wanted to make Shep a better tool/slave for Cerberus by installing a control chip.  Liara wanted to save her friend.  Not sure why you seem confused by these two vastly different motivations.

One of my former roommates served in the army.  He kept mementoes and keepsakes from people he served with that died.  The dog tags went to the families.  He exchanged stuff with those that lived as well.  That is not obsession, that is honoring the memory of a comrade in arms dead or alive.  If you can't understand the bond forged in war then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

My point is that I can believe and accept Cerberus ignoring whatever Shepard would have wanted done with their remains in order to revive them for 'the greater good.' They're an amoral organization out for whatever they see benefits humanity. It's Liara, a friend, doing the same, not for 'the greater good' but for her own 'good.' Because she couldn't 'let Shepard go,' even though Shepard is not hers to 'let' anything. A faceless soulless organization disregards bodily autonomy? We're having the fight against that every day in our world, I'm not surprised to see it still being an issue in the world of Mass Effect. A friend disregarding bodily autonomy for their own selfish reasons? That's a betrayal in my book.

And you know, I get holding on to the dog tags of the deceased. I do. And I'm not arguing that. What I don't get is Liara holding onto the charred and broken remains of Shepard's armor and effectively having them enshrined in her living room. If it had been Shepard's dog tags, which she very clearly has, I wouldn't bring it up. Instead, it's the armor chestplate that Shepard DIED in. That crosses the line into creepy obsession.

[David7204]

remydat wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Gosh, Wikipedia doesn't say anything like that, huh? That's interesting.

Could you point out the part of the NASA article where it says an object must be moving at a certain velocity to enter atmosphere? I can't seem to find it.

Second paragraph. 

As a spacecraft re-enters the earth's atmosphere, it is traveling very much faster than the speed of sound. The aircraft is said to be hypersonic. Typical low earth orbit re-entry speeds are near 17,500 mph and the Mach number M is nearly twenty five, M < 25.

The below is perhaps the best answer and it comes directly from a NASA engineer.

http://www.nasa.gov/...tlereentry.html

In short, an object has to achieve 7,900 meters a second to remain in orbit over earth.  If you are entering earth outside of orbit it is even faster 11,000 meters a second.  Once you start plumetting to earh gravity takes over and a ship has to actually fire its rockets backwards to prevent gravity from causing it to accelerate even faster. 

So Shep was never in orbit over Alchera and he never attained any sort of velocity that would have allowed him to punch past the orbital distance of Alchera to the point where gravity would have pulled him back to Alchera.  Further, even if he had achieved such a velocity, gravity would have accelerated him tremendously and without rockets to fire backwards to reduce his speed, he would exeprience temperatures that exceed something like 5000 degrees farenheit.

So it really is impossible dude.  Shep in the vid wasn't even going that fast and even if he was he would have burned up.

This does absolutely nothing to indicate that an object must be traveling 4,700 meters per second to enter Earth.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

This does absolutely nothing to indicate that an object must be traveling 4,700 meters per second to enter Earth.

While you think about my email answer, also think about the reentry problem for a space ship returning to Earth from the moon. It's reentry speed is much faster, a little over 11,000 meter/second! The higher speed comes from the fact that the spacecraft must fly fast enough to completely leave Earth orbit.

http://www.nasa.gov/...tlereentry.html

If you are not in orbit your reentry speed is faster because you have to exceed the orbital speed which for earth is 7,900 meters per second.  If you are coming from the moon for example then that speed as the above notes must be 11,000 meters a second or more because as the NASA dude said, you have to fly fast enough to not get trapped in Earth's orbit.

So not sure what you don't understand.  This just seems like an attempt to deny the truth.  Why don't you put forward a logical explanation as to how Shep was able to enter the atmosphere with a body intact?

[David7204]

It's clear to me you have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Let me clarify things. Your assertion that objects must be moving a certain velocity to enter atmosphere is complete and utter nonsense. Your idea that the atmosphere will 'bounce' objects off if they aren't moving 4,700 meters per second is complete and utter nonsense.

This space shuttle analogy is incredibly clumsy, garbled, and meaningless. You're putting sentences together that make no sense. "If you are coming from the moon for example then that speed as the above notes must be 11,000 meters a second or more because as the NASA dude said, you have to fly fast enough to not get trapped in Earth's orbit."?

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 10:48 .

[remydat]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

My point is that I can believe and accept Cerberus ignoring whatever Shepard would have wanted done with their remains in order to revive them for 'the greater good.' They're an amoral organization out for whatever they see benefits humanity. It's Liara, a friend, doing the same, not for 'the greater good' but for her own 'good.' Because she couldn't 'let Shepard go,' even though Shepard is not hers to 'let' anything. A faceless soulless organization disregards bodily autonomy? We're having the fight against that every day in our world, I'm not surprised to see it still being an issue in the world of Mass Effect. A friend disregarding bodily autonomy for their own selfish reasons? That's a betrayal in my book.

And you know, I get holding on to the dog tags of the deceased. I do. And I'm not arguing that. What I don't get is Liara holding onto the charred and broken remains of Shepard's armor and effectively having them enshrined in her living room. If it had been Shepard's dog tags, which she very clearly has, I wouldn't bring it up. Instead, it's the armor chestplate that Shepard DIED in. That crosses the line into creepy obsession.

And I can accept Liara doing the same.  There are plenty of people who would bring their loved ones back if they could.  There are plenty of people who wouldn't so I fail to see your point.  I also see no reason for Shep to be upset when doing so results in him being able to save the galaxy.  Are you suggesting Shep would have greater reservations over Liara reviving him to save the galaxy than he would over killing 300k men, women, and children to prevent the Reapers from simply entering the Galaxy during arrival?  If so then that is not the Shep Bioware created.  He sacrifices for the greater good all the time.  In fact, Shep would have to be a pretty cruel bastard to kill men, women, and children to save the galaxy but be upset that Liara's act which ending up saving trillions only required someone screwing with his body.

The dog tags went to the families.  My friend held on to other stuff.  Furthermore, people auction off miliatary gear all the time that people once wore.  Hell, people spend thousands of dollars for a shirt of an athlete they don't even know.  Plenty of people collect items for the sake of collecting or nostaglia.  I guess you can consider them all obsessed as well but I don't.

[Barquiel]

Liara was also apprehensive of Cerberus' plans when Miranda explained her intentions to bring Shepard back to life.

She tells Miranda to let the dead rest and that what Cerberus does is not what she brought Shepard back for. Miranda interrupts and reassures Liara that their intentions were different than those of the Collectors.

[themikefest]

remydat wrote...
One of my former roommates served in the army.  He kept mementoes and keepsakes from people he served with that died.  The dog tags went to the families.  He exchanged stuff with those that lived as well.  That is not obsession, that is honoring the memory of a comrade in arms dead or alive.  If you can't understand the bond forged in war then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

I was in combat and saw 6 of my fellow soldiers killed in Iraq in 1991. All the equipment that was issued by the military to them went back to Army. All there belongings, no matter how insignificant that item was, went back to their family members. Whatever belongings that soldier had was given to who ever according to his will. His family members would then, by their descretion, give whatever they felt to friends if they choose.

With T'Soni taking the armor is beyond obsession. What gave her the right to do that? Does she have more rights to that armor than Shepards mother if he/she is a spacer? Or how about if Kaidan/Ashley is his/her LI? Also what gives her the right to take Shepards DNA? She has it on the picture frame and the glass case downstairs. What was the purpose of having the DNA? She has mental issues.

Why didn't she tell anyone that Shepards body was given to Cerberus? As i said in a another post, Shepards mother would love the answer to that question.

[David7204]

There's really no indication that Liara 'took Shepard's DNA.' That's just silly.

Far more likely is that a DNA sample is an easy and quick security check. You put your finger on a scanner to log in to a computer or unlock a door or start your car.

You don't need to take DNA samples from everyone to have stuff work. If you're friend is visiting your house and you won't arrive until later, you just program the door to recognize his signature for the day. You don't need to hunt down a hair sample. This stuff would all be handled by a central database.

Likewise, Liara just programs the picture to recognize Shepard. Simple as that. She doesn't need to go hunt down a sample.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 11:05 .

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

It's clear to me you have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Let me clarify things. Your assertion that objects must be moving a certain velocity to enter atmosphere is complete and utter nonsense. Your idea that the atmosphere will 'bounce' objects off if they aren't moving 4,700 meters per second is complete and utter nonsense.

This space shuttle analogy is incredibly clumsy, garbled, and meaningless. You're putting sentences together that make no sense. "If you are coming from the moon for example then that speed as the above notes must be 11,000 meters a second or more because as the NASA dude said, you have to fly fast enough to not get trapped in Earth's orbit."?

All objects that fall from space do so at incredibly high speeds due to gravity and either burn up in the atmosphere or slam into the earth with extreme force unless they have some mechanism to slow their descenet like shuttles equipped with reverse thrusters.

So you seem to be veering off topic.  Could Shep survive that fall from space.  If so, how?

[David7204]

That simply isn't true at all.

Debris can and does fall to Earth at terminal velocity without burning up. And terminal velocity is nowhere remotely close to 'extreme force.' It's uncommon, because most objects that enter Earth's atmosphere were moving at very high speeds through space to begin with, but it happens.

Straight from Wikipedia -

"Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 42 kilometers per second through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 29.6 kilometers per second. Thus, when meteoroids meet Earth's atmosphere head-on (which only occurs when meteors are in a retrograde orbit such as the Eta Aquarids, which are associated with the retrograde Halley's Comet), the combined speed may reach about 71 kilometers per second. Meteoroids moving through Earth's orbital space average about 20 km/s."

20,000 meters a second on average. And the space shuttle moving at 8,000 to 11,000 meters a second on average. So yes, they certainly burn up. But is Shepard moving at 10,000 meters a second towards Alchera? No.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 11:21 .

[remydat]

themikefest wrote...
I was in combat and saw 6 of my fellow soldiers killed in Iraq in 1991. All the equipment that was issued by the military to them went back to Army. All there belongings, no matter how insignificant that item was, went back to their family members. Whatever belongings that soldier had was given to who ever according to his will. His family members would then, by their descretion, give whatever they felt to friends if they choose.

With T'Soni taking the armor is beyond obsession. What gave her the right to do that? Does she have more rights to that armor than Shepards mother if he/she is a spacer? Or how about if Kaidan/Ashley is his/her LI? Also what gives her the right to take Shepards DNA? She has it on the picture frame and the glass case downstairs. What was the purpose of having the DNA? She has mental issues.

Why didn't she tell anyone that Shepards body was given to Cerberus? As i said in a another post, Shepards mother would love the answer to that question.

But that is you mike.  Other soliders keep stuff all the time that the military technically doesn't permit them to keep.  You are trying to impose some uniform standard of grief on everyone based on your own views on it.

If she told Shep's mother and Shep's mother refused which would obviously be her right then trillions dying because of principle you feel better?  As someone noted, Liara had her reservations but she made a choice that ultimately saved trillions.  Shep routinely decides whether other people live or die and you want to cry about Liara's decision with a corpse? 

No one is saying what Liara did was 100% morally just.  However, people are basically chastising her treatment of a corpse while they sit here all day everyday and justify all sorts of decisions where Shep literally decides who lives and who dies.