443 réponses à ce sujet

[s-jay2676]

themikefest wrote...

remydat wrote...
One of my former roommates served in the army.  He kept mementoes and keepsakes from people he served with that died.  The dog tags went to the families.  He exchanged stuff with those that lived as well.  That is not obsession, that is honoring the memory of a comrade in arms dead or alive.  If you can't understand the bond forged in war then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

I was in combat and saw 6 of my fellow soldiers killed in Iraq in 1991. All the equipment that was issued by the military to them went back to Army. All there belongings, no matter how insignificant that item was, went back to their family members. Whatever belongings that soldier had was given to who ever according to his will. His family members would then, by their descretion, give whatever they felt to friends if they choose.

With T'Soni taking the armor is beyond obsession. What gave her the right to do that? Does she have more rights to that armor than Shepards mother if he/she is a spacer? Or how about if Kaidan/Ashley is his/her LI? Also what gives her the right to take Shepards DNA? She has it on the picture frame and the glass case downstairs. What was the purpose of having the DNA? She has mental issues.

Why didn't she tell anyone that Shepards body was given to Cerberus? As i said in a another post, Shepards mother would love the answer to that question.

Shepard's mother only plays a role, when Shepard has the spacer background, and even then it's a very small role. So, do you really expect the writers to create dialoge, that is completely unnecessary? And where was the great Alliance when Shepard's body was recovered? They didn't care, they didn't even send a ship to Alchera. There were 20 crew members, still unaccounted for, two years later. Well, at least Liara cared, she recovered Shepard's body, and she had every right to keep the armor. But she should've told somebody that Shepard was recovered, on that I agree with you.

Modifié par s-jay2676, 15 juin 2013 - 11:35 .

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

That simply isn't true at all.

Debris can and does fall to Earth at terminal velocity without burning up. And terminal velocity is nowhere remotely close to 'extreme force.' It's uncommon, because most objects that enter Earth's atmosphere were moving at very high speeds through space to begin with, but it happens.

Straight from Wikipedia -

"Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 42 kilometers per second through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 29.6 kilometers per second. Thus, when meteoroids meet Earth's atmosphere head-on (which only occurs when meteors are in a retrograde orbit such as the Eta Aquarids, which are associated with the retrograde Halley's Comet), the combined speed may reach about 71 kilometers per second. Meteoroids moving through Earth's orbital space average about 20 km/s."

20,000 meters a second on average. And the space shuttle moving at 8,000 to 11,000 meters a second on average. So yes, they certainly burn up. But is Shepard moving at 10,000 meters a second towards Alchera? No.

Not sure your point here.  The artical states an obejct has to maintain a speed of 7,900 meters per second to remain in orbit.  You provided a link that says meteoroids travel 20 km a second which is 20,000 meters ie faster.  So where do you see the contradiction here?  There is no requirement yo uhave to maintain exactly 7,900 meters a second.  It all depends on the nature and angle of the orbit.  Incidentally 20km a second translates into over 40 thousand miles an hour.

Give me a confirmed example of an object hitting earth at a velocity that an actual human body can survive?  Gravity increases the speed of an object as it enters the atmosophere.  That is precisely why you need reverse thrusters.

[themikefest]

remydat wrote...

themikefest wrote...
I was in combat and saw 6 of my fellow soldiers killed in Iraq in 1991. All the equipment that was issued by the military to them went back to Army. All there belongings, no matter how insignificant that item was, went back to their family members. Whatever belongings that soldier had was given to who ever according to his will. His family members would then, by their descretion, give whatever they felt to friends if they choose.

With T'Soni taking the armor is beyond obsession. What gave her the right to do that? Does she have more rights to that armor than Shepards mother if he/she is a spacer? Or how about if Kaidan/Ashley is his/her LI? Also what gives her the right to take Shepards DNA? She has it on the picture frame and the glass case downstairs. What was the purpose of having the DNA? She has mental issues.

Why didn't she tell anyone that Shepards body was given to Cerberus? As i said in a another post, Shepards mother would love the answer to that question.

But that is you mike.  Other soliders keep stuff all the time that the military technically doesn't permit them to keep.  You are trying to impose some uniform standard of grief on everyone based on your own views on it.

If she told Shep's mother and Shep's mother refused which would obviously be her right then trillions dying because of principle you feel better?  As someone noted, Liara had her reservations but she made a choice that ultimately saved trillions.  Shep routinely decides whether other people live or die and you want to cry about Liara's decision with a corpse? 

No one is saying what Liara did was 100% morally just.  However, people are basically chastising her treatment of a corpse while they sit here all day everyday and justify all sorts of decisions where Shep literally decides who lives and who dies.

Are talking about taking items from the body? If that's the case then thats disrespectful to your fallen comrade,would also mean you were never a friend,as well as the family. If someone were to do that to my body, I'm sure someone in my family would give them a dirt nap.

How is telling Shepards mother after her son's/daughter's body was given to Cerberus effect trillions? Same with telling her about the armor?
 If someone did that to my son/daughter I would like to know and the why.

[remydat]

http://www.space.com...space-junk.html

This 12,500 pound satellite that is dead ie has no energy to propel itself while due to the nature of its orbit fall to earth. In doing so the article states that only 1170 pounds of it will survive reentry. So in other words over 90% of its mass will burn up on reentry.

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 11:49 .

[David7204]

Whatever lateral velocity it requires for an unpowered object to remain in a certain orbit (there are many different types of orbit) over Earth has absolutely nothing to do with Shepard's forward velocity over Alchera! You seem to be assuming they're related somehow, as if this is proof that Shepard is moving at 7,900 meters per second towards the planet. That's completely unfounded and ridiculous.

If the object is moving faster than terminal velocity, then no, it will not be sped up, it will be slowed down once it hits significant atmosphere. The force of air resistance pushing the object up will be greater than the force of gravity pulling it down, and the object will slow down.

Would Shepard's body still be burned and hit the ground at a high speed? Yes. But Shepard has ablative armor built to handle high heat. And people in skydiving accidents don't splatter into goo when they hit the ground at terminal velocity.

Modifié par David7204, 15 juin 2013 - 11:54 .

[remydat]

themikefest wrote...

Are talking about taking items from the body? If that's the case then thats disrespectful to your fallen comrade,would also mean you were never a friend,as well as the family. If someone were to do that to my body, I'm sure someone in my family would give them a dirt nap.

How is telling Shepards mother after her son's/daughter's body was given to Cerberus effect trillions? Same with telling her about the armor?
 If someone did that to my son/daughter I would like to know and the why.

No, not from the body.  In real life the situation is different.  In the game, Liara gave the body over to Cerberus.  She very well could not give any items she recovered to the family because no one knew she recovered the body.

The mother is Alliance.  If she notifies the Alliance and they move to recover the body, can it not jeopardize the Lazarus project?   Woudl the cerberus dude who tried to betray you just as Shep wakes up maybe not betray Cerberus sooner if he knows the Alliance is looking for his body?  If it does, does the galaxy not die if Shep is not revived?

Again is the rights of a corpse more important than the rights of those 300k batarains Shep decides need to die to save the Galaxy?

Modifié par remydat, 15 juin 2013 - 11:56 .

[themikefest]

s-jay2676 wrote...
Shepard's mother only plays a role, when Shepard has the spacer background, and even then it's a very small role. So, do you really expect the writers to create dialoge, that is completely unnecessary? And where was the great Alliance when Shepard's body was recovered? They didn't care, they didn't even send a ship to Alchera. There were 20 crew members, still unaccounted for, two years later. Well, at least Liara cared, she recovered Shepard's body, and she had every right to keep the armor. But she should've told somebody that Shepard was recovered, on that I agree with you.

All they had to do is have T'Soni mention that she told his/her mother or have an email sent to the SR2 from his/her mother that she knew your body was with Cerberus.

I agree about the Alliance. There nothing but a bunch of morons. If Hackett and Anderson had any leadership skills they would've sent a shuttle to the location of the SR1 to see if anything was worth recovering and to get the 20 sets of dogtags.

What right is it that makes her have the armor? What makes her more important than Shepards mother or Ashley/Kaidan if they were LI?

If it wasn't for Feron,Liara would never of found Shepard's body. So T'Soni doesn't deserve all the credit.

[themikefest]

remydat wrote...

themikefest wrote...

Are talking about taking items from the body? If that's the case then thats disrespectful to your fallen comrade,would also mean you were never a friend,as well as the family. If someone were to do that to my body, I'm sure someone in my family would give them a dirt nap.

How is telling Shepards mother after her son's/daughter's body was given to Cerberus effect trillions? Same with telling her about the armor?
 If someone did that to my son/daughter I would like to know and the why.

No, not from the body.  In real life the situation is different.  In the game, Liara gave the body over to Cerberus.  She very well could not give any items she recovered to the family because no one knew she recovered the body.

The mother is Alliance.  If she notifies the Alliance and they move to recover the body, can it not jeopardize the Lazarus project?   Woudl the cerberus dude who tried to betray you just as Shep wakes up maybe not betray Cerberus sooner if he knows the Alliance is looking for his body?  If it does, does the galaxy not die if Shep is not revived?

Again is the rights of a corpse more important than the rights of those 300k batarains Shep decides need to die to save the Galaxy?

The way I was interpreting it was the items were taken from the body.My bad for misunderstanding.

Even if Shepards mother was to tell the Alliance, they wouldn't do much, they never have, unless there was absolute prove and they would never of found the location where Shepards body is  been kept.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Whatever lateral velocity it requires for an unpowered object to remain in a certain orbit (there are many different types of orbit) over Earth has absolutely nothing to do with Shepard's forward velocity over Alchera! You seem to be assuming they're related somehow, as if this is proof that Shepard is moving at 7,900 meters per second towards the planet. That's completely unfounded and ridiculous.

If the object is moving faster than terminal velocity, then no, it will not be sped up, it will be slowed down once it hits significant atmosphere. The force of air resistance pushing the object up will be greater than the force of gravity pulling it down, and the object will slow down.

Would Shepard's body still be burned and hit the ground at a high speed? Yes. But Shepard has ablative armor built to handle high heat. And people in skydiving accidents don't splatter into goo when they hit the ground at terminal velocity.

What forward velocity?  The dude is floating about above the planet slow as hell?  Again, provide an example of an object traveling say 10 miles an hour being able to reenter the Earth's atmosphere?

People in skydiving accidents are not falling from space.  Falling from space requires more velocity.  Again, find me an instance where something from space just gently touches down on earth.  

Also the N7 armor was damaged into several pieces so it clearly did not hold up under the heat and force of the collision.  For the armor to break but Shep survive enough intact to be rebuilt is a joke.

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 12:10 .

[David7204]

Let me ask you a question.

What do you think would happen, exactly, if you had a rocket that had just enough juice to exit Earth's atmosphere? It flies up, and slowly loses velocity, and basically comes to rest on the edge of space. According to you, it can't reenter Earth's atmosphere because it isn't moving fast enough. So what do you think happens to it?

Modifié par David7204, 16 juin 2013 - 12:11 .

[s-jay2676]

themikefest wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...
Shepard's mother only plays a role, when Shepard has the spacer background, and even then it's a very small role. So, do you really expect the writers to create dialoge, that is completely unnecessary? And where was the great Alliance when Shepard's body was recovered? They didn't care, they didn't even send a ship to Alchera. There were 20 crew members, still unaccounted for, two years later. Well, at least Liara cared, she recovered Shepard's body, and she had every right to keep the armor. But she should've told somebody that Shepard was recovered, on that I agree with you.

All they had to do is have T'Soni mention that she told his/her mother or have an email sent to the SR2 from his/her mother that she knew your body was with Cerberus.

I agree about the Alliance. There nothing but a bunch of morons. If Hackett and Anderson had any leadership skills they would've sent a shuttle to the location of the SR1 to see if anything was worth recovering and to get the 20 sets of dogtags.

What right is it that makes her have the armor? What makes her more important than Shepards mother or Ashley/Kaidan if they were LI?

If it wasn't for Feron,Liara would never of found Shepard's body. So T'Soni doesn't deserve all the credit.

Shepard's mother is not important enough, at least to me. I never even played spacer, so perhaps I'm not qualified to talk about that. But to whom would Liara give the armor, if Shepard is colonist or earthborn and didn't have a LI? And like a said before, the armor is just a symbol showing, that Liara wants to remeber Shepard by. And the players can say ''Hey, I know this. That's my armor,'' because it is easily recognizable. Any other object would not have the same effect. And Liara deserves definitely more credit than Ashley/Kaidan, or any other squad member, for that matter.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Let me ask you a question.

What do you think would happen, exactly, if you had a rocket that had just enough power to exit Earth's atmosphere? Basically, it's at rest on the edge of space. According to you, it can't reenter Earth's atmosphere because it is moving fast enough. So what do you think happens to it?

No anything in orbit is still technically falling.  It just has enough velocity to not fall to the ground.  Over a period of time gravity slowly shrinks the orbit and slows it down so that sooner or later it drops below orbital velociy and falls to the earth.  Thus, for example, the moon is slowly being pulled closer to the earth all the time.

However, as gravity pulls and you come in contact with the atmosphere, you heat up which is why the vast majority of objects burn up before hitting the ground.  Again, not sure how his armor was broken up but we are suppose to pretend that Shep did not burn up or hit the ground with enough velocity to break bones, destory organs and tissue, and rip flesh apart?

I mean honestly, what are you saying?

[David7204]

Did you read what I said? It's not in orbit. It's at rest.  It's velocity is zero. Zero, you understand that? It doesn't have 'just enough' velocity for anything.

You're also completely wrong about the moon. A perfect orbit will never decay, period. Basic physics.

Modifié par David7204, 16 juin 2013 - 12:22 .

[Eckswhyzed]

remydat wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That simply isn't true at all.

Debris can and does fall to Earth at terminal velocity without burning up. And terminal velocity is nowhere remotely close to 'extreme force.' It's uncommon, because most objects that enter Earth's atmosphere were moving at very high speeds through space to begin with, but it happens.

Straight from Wikipedia -

"Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 42 kilometers per second through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 29.6 kilometers per second. Thus, when meteoroids meet Earth's atmosphere head-on (which only occurs when meteors are in a retrograde orbit such as the Eta Aquarids, which are associated with the retrograde Halley's Comet), the combined speed may reach about 71 kilometers per second. Meteoroids moving through Earth's orbital space average about 20 km/s."

20,000 meters a second on average. And the space shuttle moving at 8,000 to 11,000 meters a second on average. So yes, they certainly burn up. But is Shepard moving at 10,000 meters a second towards Alchera? No.

Not sure your point here.  The artical states an obejct has to maintain a speed of 7,900 meters per second to remain in orbit.  You provided a link that says meteoroids travel 20 km a second which is 20,000 meters ie faster.  So where do you see the contradiction here?  There is no requirement yo uhave to maintain exactly 7,900 meters a second.  It all depends on the nature and angle of the orbit.  Incidentally 20km a second translates into over 40 thousand miles an hour.

Give me a confirmed example of an object hitting earth at a velocity that an actual human body can survive?  Gravity increases the speed of an object as it enters the atmosophere.  That is precisely why you need reverse thrusters.

Excellent, time for some physics.

Let's ignore orbital velocity for a moment and say we have an object floating motionless in space. We then drop it and it falls towards the planet. While it's still in space, it accelerates due to gravity (in the case of Earth, at 9.81 m/s^2). As our object falls, the atmosphere gets thicker and the drag force due to air resistance will increase. Note that the magnitude of the drag force depends on your velocity AND the density of the atmosphere. So for some objects, there will actually be a period of deceleration as the atmosphere thickens and their velocity is high enough such that the drag force is greater than the force of gravity.

So what's the bottom line? There's a problem comparing meteor impacts to that of an armoured human. For massive meteors moving fast enough, the atmosphere might as well not exist and they simply impact with their cosmic velocity with predictably devastating effects. Why? Because the gravitational force felt by an object is proportional to its mass (and hence its volume) where as the drag force is proportional to the cross-sectional area. So for larger, massive objects e.g. giant rocks air resistance isn't as important, whereas for a small armoured human it is.

Then what can we do to model something like Shepard's fall? I'm not too sure. It's clear the Normandy destruction takes place outside of Alchera's atmosphere, giving us a lower bound on altitude of at least 100km (for comparison, the ISS orbits around 420km and the Red Bull Stratos jump was from around 40km). Orbital velocity only makes things more complicated.

My personal headcanon? Shepard floats over to the Mako, gets inside and survives the fall

Summary:
Meteors behave very differently from humans, don't compare them.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

Did you read what I said? It's not in orbit. It's at rest.  It's velocity is zero. Zero, you understand that? It doesn't have 'just enough' velocity for anything.

You're also completely wrong about the moon. A perfect orbit will never decay, period. Basic physics.

The moon is not a perfect orbit but I got the direction wrong.  The moon is moving away from us because of the Tidal bulge.  

Not sure your point about it being at rest.  Shep's body is not at rest.

[remydat]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Excellent, time for some physics.

Let's ignore orbital velocity for a moment and say we have an object floating motionless in space. We then drop it and it falls towards the planet. While it's still in space, it accelerates due to gravity (in the case of Earth, at 9.81 m/s^2). As our object falls, the atmosphere gets thicker and the drag force due to air resistance will increase. Note that the magnitude of the drag force depends on your velocity AND the density of the atmosphere. So for some objects, there will actually be a period of deceleration as the atmosphere thickens and their velocity is high enough such that the drag force is greater than the force of gravity.

So what's the bottom line? There's a problem comparing meteor impacts to that of an armoured human. For massive meteors moving fast enough, the atmosphere might as well not exist and they simply impact with their cosmic velocity with predictably devastating effects. Why? Because the gravitational force felt by an object is proportional to its mass (and hence its volume) where as the drag force is proportional to the cross-sectional area. So for larger, massive objects e.g. giant rocks air resistance isn't as important, whereas for a small armoured human it is.

Then what can we do to model something like Shepard's fall? I'm not too sure. It's clear the Normandy destruction takes place outside of Alchera's atmosphere, giving us a lower bound on altitude of at least 100km (for comparison, the ISS orbits around 420km and the Red Bull Stratos jump was from around 40km). Orbital velocity only makes things more complicated.

My personal headcanon? Shepard floats over to the Mako, gets inside and survives the fall

Summary:
Meteors behave very differently from humans, don't compare them.

Ok, I can agree with most of this as I was being overly simplistic so fair enough.  However, Shep's armour is completely intact when  he is floating in space.  It is in pieces on the ground because Liara has part of it when she recovered his body and Legion has other parts of it as he uses it for his armour.

So how exactly was Shep going slow enough for his body to largely land in one piece but fast enough that either parts of his armour burned away upon reentry or were shatterd upon impact on the ground?

And do you honestly think Shep's body being in the condition it presumably is in in order for it to be rebuilt jives with physics?

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 01:14 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The blueberry or the space ninja ballerina.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 16 juin 2013 - 01:50 .

[spirosz]

The fans.

[Eckswhyzed]

@Remy

If (and this is a big if) Shepard is going at something close to terminal velocity it's possible (especially with kinetic barrier technology) to survive the fall.

As for the 'in pieces on the ground' part, is it ever stated that the armour is in pieces? It's possible that the recovery team removed Shepard's armour - but that doesn't really make sense as you'd probably want to do that sort of thing in a clean surgery room and not on-site.

I agree - the state of the armour does seem to contradict Shepard's survival.

[remydat]

Eck,

I thought Kinetic Barries protect against external force ie a gun shot but not internal concussive force. So shouldn't there still be concussive force internally from your body hitting up against the inside of the suit as well as your internal organs hitting up against your bones and the like as they are not perfectly suspended?

So I guess the question is whether the concussive forced generated by hitting the ground is solely attributable to external impact. Like does Clone Shep only die because he doesn't have a helmet when he falls from the plane or does he die presumble because the concussive effect of his body slaming against itself?

[KaiserShep]

"Any more of this and my head's gonna explode." ~Ken Donnelly

[Eckswhyzed]

@Remydat

Actually, that's a good point. My thinking is that kinetic barriers automatically activate to deflect or stop incoming high-velocity projectiles. So I think they'd still be useful in a high velocity impact. My thinking is that there have been examples of skydivers surviving after having chutes fail etc. and that 22nd century armour does have some shock absorbing properties.

[remydat]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@Remydat

Actually, that's a good point. My thinking is that kinetic barriers automatically activate to deflect or stop incoming high-velocity projectiles. So I think they'd still be useful in a high velocity impact. My thinking is that there have been examples of skydivers surviving after having chutes fail etc. and that 22nd century armour does have some shock absorbing properties.

Yeah I recall a story of a sky diver hitting the ground, bouncing twice and still surviving but I view that as a pure fluke and if someone used the fact it occurred once in real life as a means to save someone from dying when their chute fails at 5,000 feet, most people would roll their eyes and be like WTF.  But yeah don't know enough about Shep's suit to determine if it has shock absorption.

Of course, this is still ignoring the issue of the armor being in pieces and whether it was due to the fall or because someone cut it off prior to transporting him.  I just find the probability of these individual events to be really small which when you multiply them all out into the perfect series of events that allows Shep's body to survive renders the chances of it happening virtually nil

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 03:53 .

[remydat]

KaiserShep wrote...

"Any more of this and my head's gonna explode." ~Ken Donnelly

Ah but the real question is could you head really explode simply from reading this stuff.  Like what are the physics behind such an occurrence?  Is it really that likely in your opinion?

Modifié par remydat, 16 juin 2013 - 03:54 .

[David7204]

Liara asked for the armor as a keepsake when she delivered the body to Cerberus. Problem solved.